[RFC] Pollution revamp

[TheElan]

Your GTNH Discord Username

Elan

Your Pack Version

2.1.1.0

Your Proposal

As I've noticed current problem with pollution revamp is a lack of a structured requirements.

First part of my proposal is to gather all ideas on how pollution and it parts should work from a player perspective under this issue.

Please check anything posted before making a proposal. If you have a more concrete idea on how it should work and it isn't already under this issue - post it here. If you can split your suggestion into parts with clear boundaries. For example in one post you propose on how to add a pollution to the world and in the other on how to remove pollution from the world and so on.

Second part of it is voting under posts with :+1: or :-1:.

After some time have passed we can collect most up-voted/best ratio ideas, filter it using DreamMaster::doYouLikeThis predicate, add some more from DreamMaster::polutionMustDoThis. Having this set it would be possible to compose some structured requirements for the revamp.

Note: this is a proposal for high-level ideas understandable for you common player without any modding experience. Discussion on how to better organize things from code perspective better wait till we have a complete list of features. After that it can be discussed in separate issue\discord. Same goes for performance discussions.

Note 2: If you found somebody suggest on which you have an improvement - just create your own post, referencing proposal and stating what you would like to change\expand in it.

Your Goal

Get a narrowed down list of ideas for the revamp which would allow somebody to start working on design and implementation of the revamp.

Your Vision

This is a list of things pollution should be. Please provide your opinions not related to describing your concept on discord. This will avoid flooding this thread with irrelevant/subjective/optional information.

Example proposition 1:

Pollution types

• Air pollution: it hard to breath without some kind of protection
• Toxic pollution: applies long lasting effects (e.g. reduced health) on entities which spend too much time in area with this without protection
• Radioactive pollution: when not protected you accumulates radiation. After accumulating too much of it you will start experiencing effects radiation poisoning and if it is a lethal does of radiation - you'll basically get count down timer till you just die without treatment.

This way it will be more "realistic" and would also bring more variety into game-play by requiring different strategies for pollution management.

Example proposition 2:

Personal protection

I propose expanding personal pollution protection. Having a hazmat suit as a silver bullet for any level (and type, see my pollution type proposal) is kind of boring. This protection should be tired and each tir would help to protect up to certain amount of pollution, after which it is less\not effective at all Low tier:

• wet cotton mask (becomes dry with time and less effective until soaked in water)
• herb medicine making you immune to some effects (0.5-1.5h) Mid tier:
• one-use breathing filters
• more effective solutions to wet cotton mask in
• pills/potions/magic consumables with long lasting effects (at least 4-6)
• low level magic artifacts forming a "filtering" field around you Late tier:
• Hazmat suit/etc
• permanent immunity shots

With this you would have more options to solve your pollution problems and even live with it.

Example proposition 3:

Single configuration

It should be possible to configure pollution in one place (e.g. how much which machine introduces/removes pollution, effect durations, etc)

Final Checklist

• [X] I have searched this issue tracker and there is nothing similar already. Posting on a closed issue saying I like this feature please reconsider adding it will prompt us to investigate and reopen it once we confirm your report.
• [X] I believe there is nothing similar in the pack already, or the existing solution isn't good enough.
• [X] I understand this change request may not attract enough attention and thus not be implemented.
• [X] I understand this change request may be rejected due to other community members thinking it's inappropriate.
• [X] I believe this feature would make the pack better.

[leagris]

Why were mission statements removed. Are we running in circle again with ideas on how to make pollution annoying in some way (we have had plenty of it already). Sorting idea by type is still missing a mission statement.

• Why shall there be a pollution?
• What do we expect pollution to achieve in GTNH?
• Do we want pollution to incentivise player on a preferred gameplay path; and if so, it need to be described without unambiguously?
• Do we want pollution to slow down player progression even more?
• De we want pollution to slow down high level players?

Previous pollution implementation was suspended because of the following reasons:

1. It had no mission statement and every contributor made changes with diverging interpretation and incompatible scopes.
2. It was more taxing on low level players and high level players had ways to ignore it entirely.
3. Its implementation was broken and damaged by multiple changes on rates and scope by persons who were not on the same tune and gauges.
4. Its implementation was bugged and had effect spawns inter-dimensionally.
5. Pollution could be used as griefing on SMP servers.
6. Pollution did not provide content for players, did not help server owner to fairly allot server resources across players, did not favour collaborative game-play, did not improve or incentivise players into saner or better game-play. To sum it up, pollution was landed like an alien without a mission statement and everybody had to deal with the annoyance and perpetual adjustments that tuned out to always be unfair, and damaging gameplay.

[bombcar]

Mission statement: prevent afkings like @bombcar from just using the BBF forever. The end.

[TheElan]

Containing pollution within an area

This is a pollution spreading management proposition.

Pollution should be bound by area. There are two types of areas:

• Outside world (as in whole chunks)
• Inside a chamber\room

Pollution works as-is unless you decide to contain it in chamber or build your base inside a "clean" room. This would involve managing where your pollution is piped or a location of "dirty" machines.

Approaches

Creating clean environment

When you go with "clean" room route, you build your base inside the structure and went all the pollution to outside world. This way you can walk inside without needing any protection, however this will eventually make outside of your area unlivable and require protection to be able to get outside.

This would also require some venting/air recycling solution in place so you won't suffocate and can clean the environment in case of contamination.

Concentrating pollution in a chamber

When you choose to contain your pollution inside a chamber you would need some kind of scrubbing solution in place to prevent it from rotting from the inside and leaking to the outside world.

You could also install some kind of pollution collectors to capture in pollution from outside

Dirty machines containment

Similar to Concentrating pollution in a chamber but here you don't pipe anything and allow machines to pollute current area.

Mechanics

All of the described mechanics efficiency should be tied to a pollution level and have tired versions for blocks\items.

Insulation

You need to chose insulation material. It's effectiveness will depend on the pollution level (the more expensive the material - the higher pollution level it can withstand). Pollution level beyond your material level would cause damage to it.

Leakage

Leakage can occur due to damaged insulation or opening\closing doors & hatches between environments. You would need to ensure that your current structure is in good shape and can withstand current pollution levels and also create airlocks.

Airlocks

Small containment areas with doors and good venting. In the beginning they are fully manual operated but in later stages you can automate them using airlock control blocks which will open and close doors automatically, when certain conditions are met (e.g. air is clean and all doors are locked).

Pollution monitoring

Screens and hand-held devises showing pollution in areas with pollution sensors.

Blocks which signal with red-stone given pollution conditions are met (e.g. 0 pollution points, 100 pollution points, etc)

Venting out

After fixing leakage you would need to vent bad air away - for this you would need to install vent blocks in your chamber walls, the more advanced they are quicker and more efficiently they are venting.

Venting in clean air

You can install vents to get air in (you need it to breath). You would also need filter to avoid getting bad stuff vented in. Filters wear out but can be automatically inserted.

Capturing pollution

Same as with "Venting in clean air" but with different kind of filter which gets in only pollution.

Clean air generation

Instead of venting in you could make air yourself probably using some chem reactor and air spreader, this way you don't need filters but require more power and some infrastructure.

Recycling

Similar if not the same to how scrubbers worked previously

Pumping

You use special piping for transferring pollution, which when destroyed/dismantled releases pollution it had in it. Structure should have some kind of inlet/outlet block to pass pollution through wall.

Scale

The larger the room\chamber - more (ifra)structural support and resources (e.g. vents, scrubbers, power) it would require. Requirements should not grow linearly however, having larger structure would reduce leakage by increasing overall strength and would result in more efficient resource utilization per block of space (e.g. building one 20x20x20 is chipper then four 10x10x10, even when re-using walls)

Summary

A new multi-block and simplified atmosphere mechanic allowing better contamination management if chosen. This would allow building compact bases and make pollution management more engaging.

[Folanlron]

As long as I can turn it off on my server/SP world..

It's a game not real life, and is the stupidest idea ever implemented into Minecraft

[TheElan]

As long as I can turn it off on my server/SP world..

It's a game not real life, and is the stupidest idea ever implemented into Minecraft

Rephrasing: Pollution should be optional and easy to remove/disable (e.g removing mod).

[bombcar]

As long as I can turn it off on my server/SP world.. It's a game not real life, and is the stupidest idea ever implemented into Minecraft

Rephrasing: Pollution should be optional and easy to remove/disable (e.g removing mod).

This is where and why I think the “processing pollution to get some rare materials” is key - those who choose to disable pollution should also pay the price of not being able to get whatever it is from the scrubbers. For example the MV scrubbers could provide tiny zinc so those who clean pollution in MV have an easier time getting the cleanroom than those who just disable pollution.

[hohounk]

From what I remember from the discussions on the subject over past several months:

• Why shall there be a pollution?

The main reason was to make players put lighter load on servers. E.g make them upgrade to higher tier machines instead of just spamming a lot of low-tier ones.

That means pollution calculations themselves shouldn't be costly in terms of calculations required. E.g that would mean there wouldn't be things like trapping pollution inside caves/buildings. Perhaps cleanrooms could be an exception as it shouldn't be too difficult to reduce the cleanliness according to how much pollution is released inside (no more diesel burning inside them).

• What do we expect pollution to achieve in GTNH?

be annoying enough to make people upgrade machines but not too annoying to make people stop advancing to higher tiers. It won't be an easy balance to find as everyone has different preferences.

• Do we want pollution to incentivise player on a preferred gameplay path; and if so, it need to be described without unambiguously?

the incentive should be to make them design their bases in a way to not generate too much pollution with using fewer higher tier machines over more low-tier machines would be the main way to achieve it

• Do we want pollution to slow down player progression even more?

Depends what one means by that. Making the player upgrade earlier will probably actually speed things up in long term.

• De we want pollution to slow down high level players?

at high-enough level I think there should be machines that one could use to (mostly or entirely?) counteracts the pollution generated at cost of energy and perhaps some consumable resources. Those machines should be available earlier as well but not be quite as efficient as the high-level ones or else people would still go with a bunch of low-tier, high pollution machines over fewer high tier ones.

it should still be possible to turn it off on server side if someone chooses to

[hohounk]

Giving people a reward for capturing and processing pollution is a nice idea but it shouldn't be something that is too good so that people would start deliberately polluting things for those resources.

E.g at mv-iv tiers I wouldn't mind to have an extra source of oxygen and/or nitrogen. Yes, those two gases themselves aren't pollutants but whenever you are filtering air for stuff already it shouldn't be too difficult to explain how come you're getting those gases out of it as a byproduct.

As for what else could one get from pollution, I have no clue. In real world carbon and sulfur would be the main things but I've yet to use up even a tiny fraction of the stuff I get from just regular operation of my base.

[bombcar]

E.g at mv-iv tiers I wouldn't mind to have an extra source of oxygen and/or nitrogen. Yes, those two gases themselves aren't pollutants but whenever you are filtering air for stuff already it shouldn't be too difficult to explain how come you're getting those gases out of it as a byproduct.

Yeah, gasses that are obtainable "easily" could be nice to have - makes sense that a scrubber would produce clean air and we can make it separated (basically a modified centrifuge kind of thing). Trace amounts of what is "at tier small ores" is potentially a good starting point for useful byproducts, along with other things like carbon or sulfur. It's true we don't want people polluting just to clean it up so it can't be too good - which is why something that becomes available easily in the next tier might be a good option - though even something like chlorine pre-moon could be abused by very high level players who don't have a void oil-rig to get endless saltwater.

[TheElan]

Source of pollution and way to mitigate it

Converting most of current byproducts into some form of pollution or slug substance and lowering processing cost. You can choose to spend additional energy and effort setup a system which recovers original byproducts out of env pollution substance.

Low-tech machines would just release this into "atmosphere", while more advanced ones will be able to capture it in solid or liquid form to simplify processing.

Trying to void "dirty" byproduct (e.g. deconstructing pipe with liquid, throwing into fire/lava/trashcan) should cause it to be released into "atmosphere".

This will not only provide an incentive for player on cleaning their mess, but also provide them with substantial reward, while respecting "preservation of mass" so it's not a cheesy way to get infinite resources.

[TheElan]

Single configuration

It should be possible to configure pollution in one place (e.g. how much which machine introduces/removes pollution, effect durations, etc)

[TheElan]

It should be possible to configure it as a purely cosmetic thing (no positive\negative side effects).

source

[TheElan]

It should be possible to configure it's impact on FPS (e.g. remove particles and other additional rendering effects)

source

[TheElan]

Higher levels of pollution should reduce gains from animal (e.g. bees) or plants (e.g. tree growth, crop yields, etc)

source

[TheElan]

Use pollution to incentivize more TPS friendly building strategies.

For example:

Make translocators and laggy AE shit produce a "spacetime distortion" type of pollution that causes mobs, animals and players (or maybe just players) to have a chance to randomly teleport when walking at high levels 

source

[TheElan]

Stop punishing people for polluting and instead reward them for picking greener options and/or doing green things, staying at low/no pollution levels.

source

[TheElan]

Have pollution effect machine efficiency or increase maintenance needs (for multiblocks)

source

[TheElan]

Reward player for being at low pollution. This could include:

• Increased crop stats
• Increasing Thaumcraft node aspect amounts, regeneration speed
• Spawning good Thaumcraft nodes
• 'Purifying' poor Thaumcraft nodes (i.e. changing their type to Pure, Bright)
• Increased machine efficiency
• Increased machine yields
• Increased water tank generation

source

[TheElan]

Make producing natural resources harder in highly polluted areas.

For example, crops could produce things that need to be cleaned of soot with some machine to get the original resource, water produced in automated ways would become dirty which can only be distilled (to have distilled water) or centrifuged (for normal water). You could also gain some minor amounts of elements like acids, ash or sulfurs in the process.

source

[TheElan]

It should be possible to configure to not punish player for voiding pollution (e.g. if it's a fluid or a solid) - they just will lose the ability to recover valuables from it

[TheElan]

Pollution contribution balancing and consistency

Pollution contribution should only be tied to material processed (e.g coal, diesel, rare earth) and general process (e.g. burning, mixing, decomposing, pulverisation). Machines can only capture some percentage of it.

For example Coal material contains 100 pollution units, pulverisation releases 10%, basic macerator can prevent only 10% from escaping (releases 90%). Pollution released by macerating one piece of coal is 1000.10.9=9 units.

This should simplify keeping pollution impact consistent between machines written by different authors. Green fuels could be configured to have additional advantage of producing small amount to no pollution at all.

[leagris]

Pollution contribution balancing and consistency

Pollution contribution should only be tied to material processed (e.g coal, diesel, rare earth) and general process (e.g. burning, mixing, decomposing, pulverisation). Machines can only capture some percentage of it.

For example Coal material contains 100 pollution units, pulverisation releases 10%, basic macerator can prevent only 10% from escaping (releases 90%). Pollution released by macerating one piece of coal is 100_0.1_0.9=9 units.

This should simplify keeping pollution impact consistent between machines written by different authors. Green fuels could be configured to have additional advantage of producing small amount to no pollution at all.

So you define pollution to be a simulation of pollution in real life.

What is the role of simulating real-life pollution or how would you describe how it contributes to a good game-play that players will enjoy or want to play with?

[TheElan]

So you define pollution to be a simulation of pollution in real life.

What is the role of simulating real-life pollution or how would you describe how it contributes to a good game-play that players will enjoy or want to play with?

Idea behind this was to have better control over how much pollution is produced, at least this way it's harder to mess-up numbers when somebody creates new machine and is not sure on how much it should pollute. You can only operate on the scale from 0-100% on the pollution capturing and specify what type of the process it is when other values like initial pollution units or how much does this type of a process should release lives in a config.

From what I saw and heard people put random numbers when deciding how much pollution their machine should contribute. I also remember Dream proposing something similar some time ago.

This might also allow generating power in the places where pollution is not welcome (e.g. farms), so player can consider their options and decide to make less polluting source of energy for their farm (e.g. bio diesel), instead of building generators some distance away and pushing energy with long distance wires. You may also not want to live in industrialized area, but still have some machines for manual crafting at hand.

[basdxz]

lads, he turned himself into a PICKLE

funniest shit i've ever seen

[Houstonruss]

You should be asking yourself: WHY Pollution. Not what pollution. Telling players to make more efficient stuff because pollution exists is stupid. Players already make more efficient machines because the current gameplay incentivizes it.

There is still no way to drop pollution levels. Trees could, plants could, chunks do.

Spreading out your base doesn't help pollution...If your base is bigger it generally pollutes even more.

If I had my way with pollution, the uglier your base is the worse pollution would get. I'd personally benefit from the fog blinding me from the horrors of some of these bases.

-edit a suggestion has been made: pollution is determined by votes in screenshot brag / loading art.

[GTNH-Afx237v7]

Albeit a weird ending, the initial statement is on point: Why do we want pollution?

[GTNH-Colen]

-edit a suggestion has been made: pollution is determined by votes in screenshot brag / loading art.

100% agree, bases like this deserve recognition and low pollution for their beauty.

[bombcar]

8883 may be considered too

[bombcar]

https://github.com/GTNewHorizons/GT5-Unofficial/pull/752 moves all (or most) existing pollution sources into a config, along with additional options for on/off on things like fog.

[PolkageistHS]

So pollution is re-enabled on 2.1.2.0pre2, with default values for LV combustion and gas generators at 200 pollution/sec. That makes a base all but unusable very quickly, especially since the new LV scrubber is gated behind MV (small turbines need MV assembler, and the GT++ ones don't work).

[boubou19]

values didn't change, i just made the configs without any balance decision in mind Actually you are right i made a mistake: lv diesel generator and gas turbine should be 40 gibbl/s

[PolkageistHS]

Something had to have changed, because before they were 40 LV/80 MV/160 HV, now they're 200 LV/180 MV/160 HV. Gas turbines used to be 20 LV/40 MV/80 HV, now they're 200 LV/180MV/160 HV.

[boubou19]

yeah, dunno what i was doing, good catch

[MrJakobLaich]

FIRST OFF, I gotta dump everything I just wrote in discord here, I'll make seperate issues and link them here (I hope I have enough mental energy for all that) Dumping everything here so it's all in one place and can be found, also there's a massive all of text already that's split into messages, I'll get to reading all that too in a moment, gimme time (feel free to still be angry that I posted all this)

Insanely long 7 pages on my browser text wall Little rundown / TL;DR: - Pollution fills way too fast before you get to HV and make the nanosuit, make it appear slower, the pack is very long and you have enough time to suffer - Hazmat suit sucks (A LOT), add one more hazmat suit before nanosuit, remove repair recipe, buff hazmat suit durability and instead use the thaumcraft restorer to repair them - Add air respirators, which are put into the galacticcraft slots, which make breathing with the hazmat suit possible (you don't breath inside a plastic bag afterall) or add filtering gadgets for the suit - Change the different effects the player experiences from pollution so you first notice "a problem" and have enough time to put on a suit, later on, because of massive pollution, it becomes a much bigger problem to run around unprotected - All flowers should turn into dead bushes - Vegetation / in-world effects should "use up" some off the pollution (dying leaves on a tree for example, they take some pollution away) - Pollution per chunk sucks. Two solutions: 1. Make "above-ground (can see the sky)"-pollution not chunk wise but 8x8 "block" of chunks (so 128x128 normal blocks) 2. Make "below-ground (is inside a sealed cave"-pollution stay sealed down there, afterall that stuff down there has no access to the outside. Bombcar says: > You’re trying to solve the same problem as the oxygen on space station > And likely the “flooding” code from hydrodam is the way to do it Anyways, that's the recap, have fun reading all the stuff about it :)

Regarding QOTD ("Questions of the day: Why do we need pollution? What good does it do?") Pollution feels cool because it's more realistic than "hehe just power the machine and don't worry" But right now it's just filling a chunk and giving you some annoying side effects (pretty fast from my experience too) Also, the hazmat suit has way too little durability D: So a couple of ideas: 1) Make pollution appear slower, the pack goes on for a long time, no need to fill everything with pollution within days 2) Add 1 more hazmat suits so you don't have to repair the low tech hazmat suit 800 times because you fell 4 blocks and it breaks your boots or because you touched a steam pipe and it completely melts away your whole suit, you just make the better one with rubber / polyethylene in MV and in HV upgrade to nano anyways Also, repairing the hazmat suit is currently more annoying than just making a new one, kinda weird So, you have the refined glue suit, low durability but better than nothing Advanced hazmat suit makes sense but is kind of meh to make (annoying recipe for something that everyone's basically forced this much to use) and also can't be repaired AFAIK, needs to use an MV-circuit instead of an HV one, then the recipes would be okay Give it a bit more protection too, it's advanced afterall Polyethylene end-of-MV power hazmat suit with good durability and offering even a bit of protection (little less than iron would be okay imo, still bad compared to everything at that tier but better than the other hazmat suits) REASON for this: You have so much pollution that you are forced to wear the hazmat suits anyways so it's either extremely annoying because you have to repair them every 3 seconds (currently) and we buff the suit (or add higher tier suits) or we nerf the pollution, which is what I'll talk about next (remember, buff is most of the time better than nerf xD) Asked Alastor's Game (Fuel Force) (he's the magic person when I have any magic questions xD) And thaumic restorer could repair this stuff much easier than any crafting recipe so I'd say we remove the hazmat suit repair recipe and give the refined glue suit a bit more durability Restorer is MV, you just need ender eyes which can be traded for, but I'd prefer it if the ender eye recipe got some thaumcraft equivalent so people don't instantly see that you can get them in MV, normal recipe is HV afterall... (why?), if we keep the HV recipe nobody would ever even notice that the thaumcraft one even exists lol You get poly and then mid-end MV you use it to make some better hazmat suit and stay in your new skin until you get the nano suit 3) most of the effects that pollution give you currently are there to make you stop polluting, to put on your hazmat suit or start air filtering, see above what I think about them lol I currently have one chunk with 300k+ gibbl and going up at about 40 per second If the wiki is still correct then I had at least 750k at some point, which is a lot considering that that wasn't that long since 2.1.2 came out So, imo the pollution should go up a bit slower than it is right now, at least for LV machines (Yes, I know about air scrubbers but that's not the point right now, I'll maybe get to that too) Do steam BBF / coke ovens produce pollution?? The effect tiers should be changed, you should notice a change before you get f'ed up by it So, different tiers The first ones for noticing, shouldn't affect gameplay too much The second one for actually hampering gameplay, should make you seriously consider putting on the (mandatory...) hazmat suit, you still have some time before you can't anymore The third for breaking you if you haven't put on the suit The fourth "you die lol" when you somehow made it through the last tier without having a hazmat suit on Every tier should also add a randomly selected number of effects from (all) lower tiers of effects too Also, the lower the tier compared to the current pollution effect tier the higher the effect duration and effect level So, tier 3 could have 1 tier 3 effect and any tier 2 and any tier 1 effect too, good luck with that lol So, for example, t3 pollution levels could have poison 1 for 23s, slowness 2 for 40s, mining fatigue 2 for 35s, hunger 3 for 40s and weakness 3 for 30s T1 weakness (10-20s), hunger (5-10s), nausea (3s) T2 slowness (10-30s), mining fatigue (20s) T3 blindness (20-40s), poison (20-30s) T4 wither (random duration 40-120s, yeah 120 for people with many hearts :troll:, as I said, good luck with this) I'd add more effects to this but idk what Volatility or Ill Fitting do so I can't really use them for this :shrug: Also, I'd add some warp effects too, like the one that makes the screen completely dark instead of just the blindness debuff, then I could add more tiers for pollution, which would be nice Before I do the vegetation and world effects, I'll list some warp effects that would make a bit of sense from what they sound like, maybe we could add some to the pollution stuff Insomnia, but make it say "You cough yourself awake" or something like that, probably T2 or T3 Thunderstorm, you ruined the environment T3 or T4 Whatever gives you the completely dark screen warp effect, put that into T3 instead of blindness and put blindness (10-20s) into T2 Huh, that's it lol, there's not much more there that looks good imo Regarding gadgets, GC slots and stuff like that We could add some air tank you have to use, afterall you can't really breath inside a plastic bag, so why should you be able to inside a hazmat suit without air tanks We could add some low tech breathing equipment and stuff like that, different tiers of course, who doesn't like upgrading their stuff from time to time So, probably 4 tiers of breathing stuff until you can make the nano suit Put the hazmat suit on and it protects you from pollution stuff But when you put on the hazmat suit you slowly lose oxygen, same as when you are under water Put the breathing stuff into the gadget slot and you don't lose air Air capacity depends on breathing stuff tier, first tier works for 1h, second for 3h, third tier for 8h and fourth tier for 12h (anything less is bad because just the suit is already annoying enough) Refill them by crafting together with an (or multiple in case of higher tier ones) oxygen cell, shouldn't consume the empty cell I still don't have anything in the slots except for the holo glasses so the GC, witching gadgets from Alastor and tinkers should be fine, probably should use the gadgets or GC slots, probably gadgets ones, I'd not use tinkers because you maybe make the extra hearts things at some point so either GC or WG, I don't think both matter because when you make the GC space suit it should automatically do the oxygen thing anyways (same with the nano suit and everything else later on) so once you have that all you don't need it in the GC slot anyways So, putting stuff into the GalacticCraft slots should work until HV when you have to make the space suit, the GC slots aren't used until then and after that you shouldn't need the hazmat suit anymore because you have either the GC space suit or the nanosuit Bombcar says: "The real deal is pollution isn’t fun" This (see what bombcar says :P) is exactly what I'm trying to fix, the main issues I see are: 1) Pollution right now is only barebones, not really much to it except "let's bully people into using the hazmat suit and air scrubbers" 2) hazmat suit sucks, way too low durability so you have to repair it every 3 seconds, see top part of this message 3) yeah, it's annoying and that's it, only negative stuff that doesn't have much reason to it (Negative pollution, "very clean air" would also be interesting, will maybe get to writing about that at some point later) Alright, vegetation and whatever's gonna happen to your blocks I'll only write down what additional stuff we could do or what we could change I think most of the vegetation stuff is alright the way it is, just a few tweaks All flowers should turn into dead bushes, idk why they would drop as an item, if you plant stuff in pollution then that's on you anyways, that's why we have T1 and T2 as warnings, if you still have plants when you get to T2-T3 levels it's your fault Quick input regarding when what tier happens because I'd forget otherwise: (remember, pollution would happen a bit slower than currently, so 100k should happen a lot slower than instantly) T1 happens at 100k gibbl, that's the warning, so no big debuffs T2 happens at 300k, this is where you actually get annoyed and bullied by the game so you start using the hazmat constantly T3 happens at 750k, vegetation destruction happens at 600k, plants don't like bad air... (dead plants would also be a good warning for you if you somehow still haven't made a hazmat suit) T4 is at 1M gibbl, for now there's no tier above that T5 is probably around 1.25M - 1.5M gibbl (I don't yet know what could happen player wise beyond this point) Sour rain is at 900k gibbl Late game you probably have air filters running 24/7 Alright, back to plants All flowers should turn into dead bushes Cropsticks should become the "Dead Grass" item from "Biomes O' Plenty" and drop the cropstick If we want to break people we just switch the plant on the cropstick to weed, that'd be !FUN!, good luck if you don't notice that (you should, after all you get enough warnings) Alright, I don't have any plant ideas anymore, I'll add more when I figure something out Oh, yeah, also: When a tree grows it should remove some amount of pollution, when any vegetation thing happens it should remove some pollution So, if a flower gets turned into a bush it removes, made up number for now, 1k gibbl So if you plant enough trees early on it should reduce pollution by a bit, lowest tech air scrubber ANY pollution effect should reduce pollution by some amount, afterall it some reaction which uses pollution as a component It just shouldn't be an insane amount, just enough to reduce it by a bit if you have a tree farm for example On we go to biomes Biomes, I do remember someone talking about how pollution could change a biome into some wasteland and I really like the idea In T5 (gotta figure some stuff for this at some point) we could change water into wastewater and lava into stone, that'd be cool maybe Making water become wastewater and same with lava would break rock breakers (well, that's a good thing, because pollution shouldn't just have an effect on the player, but also machines and other stuff) Should also do stuff to animals, slowness, poison, wither, etc, they are alive after all Also, what I noticed is chunkwise pollution is a little bit small, maybe making it 8x8 chunks would be cooler, that way you don't have one 500k chunk and one 13k chunk next to each other, also make a generator 8² chunk only leak into the 8 8² chunks next to it and not any further, that way you get a 192x192 block of polluted chunks God, I really hope putting pollution into ungenerated chunks doesn't break the game LMAO If it would then, yeah, idk, having one chunk with 500k and one with 13k makes no sense, so maybe at least make it be 64x64 blocks instead of one chunk that stores pollution Pollution above ground should spread / go away way faster, because there's a LOT of space outside for stuff to disperse to Also, the main idea here: Pollution is everywhere in a chunk, even if I make a hole in the ground, put the machine inside and seal it, somehow the pollution is above ground D: Pollution inside a mountain should stay down there, that way you have a reason for the air scrubbers and all that, maybe even air vents and things like that I do realize that calculating some A* route to the outside every few ticks is going to tank TPS by a massive amount but we could 1) spread it out over multiple ticks (we're kind of doing something like that for pollution already in the pollution controller) 2) make the route grid bigger, so instead of every block we only check every second block or some variation of this, but that could become a problem so I'd not recommend this at all 3) We take a faster but less precise A* algorithm? (has been about a year since I've looked into this stuff so I gotta read about that again) 4) idk, give me some better ideas We apparently just call if(block.getWorld().getHighestBlockYAt(block.getLocation()) == block.getBlockY()) for every block we come across while we check stuff (if there's a better way to check if any random block is "outside" then please tell me, because this is the best thing I could come up with :p) We could also limit the size of whatever cave we check to 100x100x40 blocks or something, at if we go above that we assume it's outside or something like that That way you could make a "cleanroom" for your plants (probably outside) and a "dirtyroom" with your machines (and a real cleanroom inside that lol) DISCORD discussion I had with bombcar after all this stuff: (I cut out all other discussions because they didn't really add anything that new to what I've had alreaady written up there) bombcar — heute um 04:56 Uhr The chunks now store pollution “underground” if you will So I think it can spread without chunk loads Same way oil works Also 500k next to 13k should balance out Dissipation may need tuning if that persists bombcar — heute um 04:59 Uhr You’re trying to solve the same problem As the oxygen on space station MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 04:59 Uhr Then I'm really for 8x8 chunk blocks for storing pollution and spreading to all 8 blocks around it, but not further Instead of using normal chunks, because this way most of your base would have kind of the same pollution level and not like it is now, have 300k here and not really any pollution 3 trees over in the next chunks bombcar — heute um 04:59 Uhr And likely the “flooding” code from hydrodam is the way to do it MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:00 Uhr Oh yeah that's a thing, I've never really used much of GC so I didn't remember xD MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:00 Uhr That sounds promising bombcar — heute um 05:00 Uhr Problem with anything like that is you can abuse the mechanics And separate by a chunk to get perfectly clean MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:01 Uhr What do you mean? bombcar — heute um 05:01 Uhr If you have a hell chunk And it will ONLy spred to the 8 around it And then stop You move two chunks away and you’re fine So you chunkload and remote control and ignore he pollution MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:02 Uhr Yeah but that's why I'd make it not chunk based but 8-chunks by 8-chunks So 128x128 blocks So you have an area of 384x 384 where it should equalize the pollution 24x24 chunks total bombcar — heute um 05:03 Uhr Yeah that’s closer to what we should have But I don’t know the spread rate Too slow and you get pollutiontowers Too fast and it dissipate who cares MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:04 Uhr Also, this way you could actually see pollution ruining your forests and stuff and it would take all machines into account MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:04 Uhr I'd play around and at some point it's gonna be good enough bombcar — heute um 05:04 Uhr I think this Could be interesting MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:05 Uhr That's why I said, it's not gonna dissipate into anything further than the next "chunkblock" bombcar — heute um 05:05 Uhr Make Polly debuffs not hit you for like 10m MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:05 Uhr So it's contained and if you produce too much it's still gonna fill the center block bombcar — heute um 05:05 Uhr Then build at chunk block borders Like@old sims Oct MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:05 Uhr polly? oh bombcar — heute um 05:05 Uhr Old SimCity MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:05 Uhr pollution bombcar — heute um 05:05 Uhr Pollution Here’s my idea MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:05 Uhr That's not gonna do much because it's a 128x128 border You'd have to make your base MASSIVE bombcar — heute um 05:06 Uhr If Polly doesn’t hit you until 10m@pr so You have a reason to build railroads MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:06 Uhr Like, so massive it's useless in MV bombcar — heute um 05:06 Uhr To your bbfs MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:06 Uhr Which is cool MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:06 Uhr oh yeah true but they'd have to be way less expensive You'd need an insane amount of stuff for that Also, we can change pollution limits, that's why I said, you should first notice small debuffs before it hits you with wither and stuff like that So you have time to adapt and fix stuff because otherwise your plants just vanish over a night In server chunkloading cases I'll add all this to the github message Good convo stuff bombcar — heute um 05:11 Uhr what we need really are userstories

EDITS:

• animals killed by pollution give you chum -> you make a chumburger ;)

Anyways, these are all my ideas regarding pollution and what I think would be cool, if you like or dislike something, please tell me what I could improve about it :)

[mmcmain]

Balance consideration (From a player that likes the pollution mechanic):

The multiblock is nice, but it can't keep up with 2 MV blast furnaces with Kanthal coils unless you also give it Absorbtion filters, which is great. However Centrifuging an Absorbtion filter at MV is only an 80% chance of returning the frame. This is overly punishing at MV considering how hard it is to make the filter frame. By the time you get to EV and can get the 100% return it is no longer a pain point for you.

I see a couple decent alternatives to balance it:

1. Make the centrifuge always return the frame (remove the chance of loss).
2. Add two new frame recipes: Aluminium and Titanium. The first has an 60% chance of loss, stainless 80% and Titanium has no chance of loss.

An LV Multiblock air purifier with absorption filters will slow the progress of 2 MV blast furnaces enough that you can run them for a reasonably long time (maybe 30 mins?) and be right on the edge of debilitating pollution. That part feels really well balanced to me as an MV player. If I had an Aluminium version of the frame available I would keep it full with a stack of filters knowing it is an Aluminium sink.

[github-actions[bot]]

This issue is stale because it has been open 90 days with no activity. Remove stale label or comment or this will be closed in 3 days

[killatapez]

so is anything gonna be changed?

[MrJakobLaich]

🤣