Unable to unmute with mouse

[Yekutiel]

On my Acer C720 with 4 gigs of RAM I can mute my audio with my mouse but I cannot unmute audio with my mouse.

To unmute audio I either press the Search Button + the Dedicated Mute button (which is above the zero key) or the dedicated mute button on my external USB keyboard, which is the keyboard I normally use when I use my Acer C720.

[adrinux]

The same happens on my HP14 Falco. I've just gotten used to using the key for mute, its easier than using a mouse anyway.

[Yekutiel]

I have also become accustomed to using the key for mute but I figured I would report the glitch. I also find that using the mute button is easier than using a mouse.

[aissixtir]

Dell CB 13 here, I have the same issue but I cannot unmute it with any key combination so far.

EDIT: I mute it at first with my touchpad. Now I increase the volume, the icon on the bar changes but still no sound. That icon that appear on the right top remains to stay mute all the time.

[Yekutiel]

I don't have a solution but I presume this thread will provide the developers with sufficient information to persuade them that this glitch actually exists.

[hugegreenbug]

I think this issue is about the the applet in the panel. It doesn't have a mute checkbox. Is that what this issue is about?

[Yekutiel]

Thank you for spending the time to respond to this issue. I am sorry I did not explain the glitch in a manner which you were able to easily comprehend.

To answer your question: no, that is not what this issue is about.

If I "right click" with my mouse over the sound icon in the panel I can see a checkbox next to mute, but once I have used the mouse to mute the sound I cannot unmute audio with my mouse.

If you still are unclear about this glitch then please let me know so that I can attempt to make a screencast for you.

[adrinux]

I'm using the dev(?) repos. I can neither mute nor unmute with the mouse since it's just a volume controller in the panel applet. But I think there was some confusion on my part because the behaviour of the keys differs from my desktop with an Apple keyboard, at least in OSX (I can check how ubuntu deals with the buttons too). The falco and the Apple keyboard both have three keys: mute, volume down and volume up. But in OSX once you've muted you can unmute by changing volume. On the falco the mute key behaves as a mute/unmute key completely independent of the volume. Volume levels can be changed while muted. It's an odd behaviour until you get used to it. I'd assumed it was hardware rather than software related...

Now I've written all that I'm not sure it's pertinent to this issue though.

[Yekutiel]

I can mute with a mouse. I followed the directions at https://galliumos.org/download.html. Therefore, I suppose I am using Galluim OS beta 1 for end users.

Being able to change volume levels while the sound is muted does not seem like an odd behaviour to me at all. To me it seems intuitive. Think of an old analog stereo receiver: the power button was was functionally a mute button (“Quick!! Mom’s home!! Turn off the stereo and pretend you are doing your homework!”). Yet there was a separate dial to adjust the volume level (“Can you kids turn it down in there? Your father and I are trying to watch the news.”).

Why shouldn't mute/unmute be distinct from volume up/volume down? I suppose the main challenge in a GUI would be properly (clearly) indicating the two. To my mind, I like the idea of two separate icons in the launcher: one to toggle mute and the other to adjust the volume.

For UNmute I imagine an alert and anthropomorphised energetic speaker in a vertical position. For mute I imagine an anthropomorphised sleeping speaker in a horizontal position.

The current icon for UNmute, a speaker icon with a X next to it, reminds me of teacher’s mark indicating a mistake on a homework assignment or test. Ugh.

As for the volume level icon, I imagine a person whispering with a small mouth to indicate a low volume. The person and the mouth would gradually increase in size as the volume increased until a giant person with a wide open was shouting.

Apple focuses on these seemingly trivial yet actually important design details. Frankly, technical folks such as engineers don't seem like the target market for Gallium OS. Technical folks probably eschew Ubuntu in favor of, say, Slackware.

See Chris Dixon's blog posting: Techies and normals http://cdixon.org/2010/01/22/techies-and-normals/

I have my 75 year old mom set up on Hugh Greenberg's Elementary OS on a Acer C720 with 4 gigs of RAM. It works fairly well for her. But she does struggle a bit with the volume control. Like most "normals" she wants to simply be able to shut off the volume with one mouse click when, say, the phone rings.

I realize this might seem ridiculous to you, but having to click on the speaker icon and then choose mute is far too complicated for her when the phone rings. If you guys would carefully watch some grandmothers and grandfathers use computers, you might be able to add some technically trivial yet valuable features.

My mom has been using computers for going on 25 years. But she still thinks like a creative woman, not a technical man. Clicking on a speaker icon and then clicking on the word mute makes no sense to her whatsoever. She wants something that works like a standard light switch (a simple toggle).

She essentially complains, “Who are the idiots who design these things? I want a Mac!” Despite my assurances that Macs aren’t that much better, she’s sick and tired of dealing with designs that don’t make sense to her.

[reynhout]

@Yekutiel you would be on beta1 then, but there have been many updates since then, and the audio applet is completely different now. You can update with apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade.

Unfortunately, I don't think the new audio applet is different in a way that will resolve your concerns.

Right clicking on the new applet brings up a context menu from which you can do many things, but mute and unmute are not among them. It's considerably less user-friendly but more capable than the previous.

We were having trouble with audio on some systems and made the call to include a more capable audio control, but it's also a more complicated control. The concession was made because volume and mute control is convenient from the keyboard, which even has special keys for the task (granted, the Super modifier is non-intuitive).

I'm very sympathetic to UX concerns, and I'm in agreement with your Mom that mute and unmute should be accomplished by the same general process, and that the old audio controller was disappointing in that way. The new applet is perhaps better in that neither can be accomplished readily. :-/ Keyboard control is the only convenient way.

Hgb has mentioned that the next GalliumOS beta release will include additional keyboard mappings, one of which will eliminate the need for the Super key to access the media key functions. This might meet your needs?

I'm kind of confused about one point -- maybe it was rhetorical? How can you mute audio with one mouse click on a Mac? Click and drag, yes, but that's not a great solution when you're, e.g., reaching for a phone.

[adrinux]

I like the new setup and I'm happy using the hardware mute key – it works without super on my Falco, perhaps thats why I'm happier with it than most!

I think Yekutiel's issues has been resolved already, as reynhout describes – you can now neither mute nor unmute via mouse and have to use the hardware key. There are already other issues for dealing with hardware keys, needing to press super etc. Such as these, not related to audio directly: https://github.com/GalliumOS/galliumos-distro/issues/80 https://github.com/GalliumOS/galliumos-distro/issues/57

And work has already landed or is ongoing, to sort key mapping issues.

[Yekutiel]

@reynhout

Thanks for your carefully considered response. I appreciate that.

you would be on beta1 then, but there have been many updates since then, and the audio applet is completely different now. You can update with apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade.

I just ran:

sudo apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade.

Right clicking on the new applet brings up a context menu from which you can do many things, but mute and unmute are not among them. It's considerably less user-friendly but more capable than the previous.

I saw the new audio applet. I agree that is considerably less user-friendly.

More features yet less user-friendly might be acceptable toengineers but is, essentially, user-mean (which is a starker way of expressing less user-friendly).

Frankly, this is a good example of why many normal people ridicule engineers for being cold and insensitive.

We were having trouble with audio on some systems and made the call to include a more capable audio control, but it's also a more complicated control.

Why stop there? Why not remove GUIs and have users do everything from the command line? Come on back to Slackware in the 90’s man. Old school FTW! I am being facetious to make a point. You guys headed in the wrong direction with this decision.

Let me explain. Apple ended up besting Microsoft (albeit with the help of a bailout in 1997 from Microsoft in the form of a loan to keep the Department of United States’ Department of Justice Antitrust Division at bay) because Steve Jobs understood what Bill Gates did not: normal users do not care one whit about features. Users care about benefits.

Frankly, often times less is more for most consumers, particularly when it comes to new technologies. This is marketing 101 yet something which most engineers blithely ignore.

On the other hand, engineers are typically enthralled with features yet only have a passing interest in benefits. With the exception of Honda Motors, I don’t know of any large corporations run by engineers that have become remarkably successful. I suppose some other corporations exist besides Honda, but I presume they are very small minority. Engineering is critically important to many corporations. But when engineers make global strategic decisions they often alienate clients, customers, or guests (not users, drug dealers sell to users).

The concession was made because volume and mute control is convenient from the keyboard, which even has special keys for the task (granted, the Super modifier is non-intuitive).

Non-intuitive user interface design is, by definition, something to be avoided.

I suppose that sort of argument helps assuage your conscience but it is absurd on its face. Aside from world travelers or gypsies, most people work on their computers predominantly from only one or two or maybe three locations. External keyboards and mice are very inexpensive. Isn’t it reasonable to expect, and even encourage, users to use external keyboards and mice?

I'm very sympathetic to UX concerns,

I do not mean to come across as acrimonious but I am unconvinced. Frankly, those seem like empty words to me.

Linux is wide open, has a massive user base, has tens of of thousands of expert users around the world who regularly post remarkably detailed and useful support responses on forums on the web, yet what I am asking for, a simple way to click on an icon to mute and unmute, is “not feasible”?

That’s like arguing there’s not enough room in the ocean for one additional fish. I can see the sign now, “We are running out of room in the ocean! No more fish allowed!”

I am not a coder. Not a little. Not at all. The last time I wrote any code was over 30 years ago in high school. It was BASIC. I hated it. I hardly wrote any code at all. Ok?

Yet answers (plural) for how to create a mute/unmute button, not one but many, are obviously already posted on the web. Sure. It might require cobbling A together with B together with C. But isn’t that what Linux hackers pride themselves on?

I don’t mean to impugn your character but frankly you probably have not bothered to look for a mute/unmute button solution because you don’t care about it enough to search for it on Google.

A bold and contentious argument on my part? Not at all. Cold hard logic firmly supports my argument while pillorying yours.

and I'm in agreement with your Mom that mute and unmute should be accomplished by the same general process, and that the old audio controller was disappointing in that way. The new applet is perhaps better in that neither can be accomplished readily. :-/ Keyboard control is the only convenient way.

How do you define readily in this case? I guess if you were to define readily as meaning a savvy junior developer spending less than 30 minutes to search on Google for the answer then you might be right.

Sometimes redundancy is valuable. Therefore, I am going to rephrase what I opined above: a mute/unmute button is obviously not technically difficult for even a savvy junior developer. There must be many ways to mute and unmute in Linux because it’s a fundamental user need that is implemented in myriad applications.

By the way, my mom is using Hugh Greenberg’s Elementary OS which I installed on her machine (Acer C720 with 4 gigs of RAM); I am using Gallium OS on my machine (also an Acer C720 with 4 gigs of RAM).

Elementary OS is better for my mom; Gallium OS is better for me. Gallium OS is much too “wide open” for my mom. Actually Elementary OS is too “wide open” for her also. I wish Elementary OS would display files they way it displays applications (which is the way that say Android phones display files in folders on the desktop).

Standard windows save dialogs have always baffled my mother for over two decades. She’s actually a sophisticated and erudite thinker, but analytical thinking (A to B to C) doesn’t work for her. She’s more like a fine artist who thinks in general abstractions not granular details.

Unfortunately, I don't think the new audio applet is different in a way that will resolve your concerns.

Fortune is not germaine; care is. From the perspective of someone like my mother I suppose the new audio applet (in Gallium OS) is worse than the old one (in Elementary OS).

If memory serves correctly a former Swiss patent clerk was quoted as saying, “Imagination is more important than knowledge."

I hope you will not be offended but I am often staggered by the lack of imagination that technical experts, such as engineers, often display when it comes to solving real problems that non-technical folks struggle with. These peopl are “normals” in Chris Dixon’s lexicon http://cdixon.org/2010/01/22/techies-and-normals/.

I'm kind of confused about one point -- maybe it was rhetorical?

How can you mute audio with one mouse click on a Mac?

I do not know.

I haven’t used a Macintosh in over a decade. I hardly pay any attention to Apple Inc’s technology whatsoever.

Like many technophobes my mother reflexively cries “Get a Mac!” when she becomes frustrated with her computer’s user interface.

drag, yes, but that's not a great solution when you're, e.g., reaching for a phone.

I agree.

[reynhout]

@Yekutiel I think you're barking in the wrong forest.

Ultimately, any intentions we have to boil any specific ocean are limited by available time and energy.

You are correct that sometimes we are forced to make compromises where we would prefer an ideal and fully articulated solution. Imagination is not lacking, but resources are limiting.

Thanks to the generosity of donors, we have been able to purchase a Chromebook device that should represent its model class (Bay Trail) and give us an improved ability to test audio configurations across a larger set of ChromeOS device models. There will still be some coverage gaps, as there are more than 79 released models, and we collectively own five of them.

But with that additional test coverage, we might be able to prioritize the choice of audio applet in a way more to everyone's liking: emphasizing convenience, attractiveness, and usability, where we've presently prioritized addressing much more fundamental concerns in our first beta release (e.g. "no audio" on ~20% of models).

Thank you for your thoughts, and please strive for courtesy in future comments.

[Yekutiel]

@reynhout

Your ultimate response in this thread begins with a reasonable assertion which boils down to something I certainly find persuasive: “Hey, we are volunteers. Don’t expect much from us.” However, it is tarnished by a thinly veiled, churlish attempt to deflect the valid criticism I launched against your penultimate comments by introducing a couple of non-sequiturs.

The use of non-sequiturs is a common defensive tactic I have encountered over the years in discussions with engineers who have painted themselves into corners with poorly constructed arguments.

When engineers become aware that their arguments are weak they seem to reflexively and stubbornly subscribe to the notion: “If you can’t beat ‘em, change the subject!” From my vantage point it is like watching a porcupine instinctively raise its spines in response to a threat.

The solution to the mute/unmute problem (the subject of this thread) is remarkably easy and simple:

1. Place an icon on the panel that invokes code that toggles the volume on and off.
2. Set the preference “Automatically hide the panel” to “Never” to ensure the icon is visible except for when full screen mode is invoked.

When the user clicks on the icon the volume will toggle on and off.

I will gladly respond to germane, carefully considered, and well reasoned arguments you address to me. However, at the risk of sounding arrogant, if the arguments I present are too difficult for you to grasp, then I request you choose not to respond to me. This is a straightforward request not a masked ad hominem attack.

I am interested in reasonable discussions that will help improve Gallium OS. Gallium OS needs much polishing, but it is “on the right track.”

As fabulous as it might sound, Gallium OS running on Chromebooks is remarkably close to being a real threat to Apple and Microsoft’s overpriced desktop/laptop operating systems. In other words, Gallium OS could be to Apple and Microsoft what Wikipedia was to Encyclopedia Britannica.

Sergey Brin and Larry Page seem to have sagely avoided a direct war with Apple and Microsoft. Instead they appear to have cleverly enticed open-source warriors to act as their proxies.

As far as I am concerned, the sooner Apple and Microsoft are tossed into the dustbin of history the better. Alphabet (formerly known as Google) is far from benign, but compared to Apple and Microsoft, Alphabet generally seems less evil.

[reynhout]

@Yekutiel we have similar goals. I'd prefer to spend energy on that, rather than on the numerous ad hominems which you have offered -- which might be offensive if not so comically uninformed.

I have not changed the subject at all, in fact as a percentage of bytes generated I've been on topic vastly more than you have. The usability of audio controls is important, and it competes with multitudes of other important UX issues in Linux.

GalliumOS does a better job bringing together the good bits than most Linuxes do, and that is not an accident. Concessions will be made, and priorities will be presented that do not always advance that specific goal. At the end of the day, GalliumOS's mission is to bring a full and optimized Linux environment to all ChromeOS device models possible. We concede that some things are out of scope (ARM models, presently) and some things are more important (sound that works) than others (duplicating keyboard functions in menubar applets). Boiling the ocean of Linux UX is an entirely worthy goal -- but it is not our focus at the present time.

There are other groups with more resources who have been working for far longer on that project: The Solus team, and the ElementaryOS team are two of them.

As I've indicated, I do not like the new audio applet either. But it's what is necessary now. I agreed with you at the outset that the original one was also not ideal, and at no time indicated that it was not an issue that deserved consideration. It is not, however, the most important issue that deserves consideration.

To break it down for you:

• I do not support your suggestion of a new icon that exclusively controls audio mute/unmute. I think it would be an absolute UX regression to add an additional control with limited functionality.
• I do support effort spent to make the previous audio applet handle muting and unmuting in a uniform way. I think your icon ideas are ineffective, but will not bikeshed them here.
• I recognize exactly the level of effort required to modify the prior applet to handle the additional functionality. I do not know whether that effort would be useful or wasted at this point.
• You are not the first person to complain about the audio control. None of your concerns are invalid, but none of them are novel. On the other hand, it is not the most pressing concern from anyone except perhaps you. While I'm happy to work on issues of special importance to people other than myself, I find your persuasive style lacking.
• This ticket has gone very far off the rails of describing a minor UX niggle which deserves attention. Nevertheless, here it is. Someone with the capability to address the issue may decide at some point to make the necessary effort. It is also possible that the ticket will be invalidated by orthogonal changes made to GalliumOS in our current pre-release phases or later, which as a side effect alter the nature of, or entirely eliminate, the issue described herein.

Regardless, I will not engage you further on this topic. At first I believed you to be a victim of your overly florid language and a tendency to accentuate the descriptive, but you've veered into directly insulting, and there is no place for that here.

More important than any audio control is the maintenance of a respectful community. You have failed on that issue, and I will ask you again to take more care in future comments.

[Yekutiel]

I do not support your suggestion of a new icon that exclusively controls audio mute/unmute.

I understand.

I think it would be an absolute UX regression to add an additional control with limited functionality.

I suppose you used the term "absolute" because your argument is weak and self-centered. (I am attacking your argument. You are not your argument. Ok?) Your argument (not you, your argument) belies a lack of awareness of how, say, little old grandmothers like my mother struggle to use computers.

If you were to actually spend time watching users actually use computers I suppose you might realize that many things at are "absolute" in your mind are in fact relative. (Again, this is not a personal attack but rather a suggestion to resolve a dispute). That Swiss patent clerk I mentioned earlier in this thread was able to grasp the power of distinction between the absolute and the relative. Ordinary users frequently struggle to use computers because the user interfaces are poorly designed for them.

Most keyboards have a dedicated mute/unmute button (as well as a volume increase and volume decrease button). Why? I suppose many people find them convenient to use.

Why not include a simple setup wizard like Puppy Linux which would include a check box for "display mute/unmute button in panel." In other words, why not make this a user preference which you would likely choose not to display and my mother would likely choose to display?

In this thread you have argued mostly defensively and off of the subject but have not yet provided any reasonable solutions to the actual topic. (Again, that's not a personal attack but instead a suggestion to resolve a problem). Please focus on reasonable solutions for the actual topic of this thread.

[veganism]

I'd just like to add that you can mute and unmute using the mouse, just scroll down on the icon until it mutes, and scroll up if you want to unmute. To have it restore your previous volume setting, you have to use the keyboard shortcut. And you can even change the volume while muted by scrolling on the icon, so long as you initiated the mute from your keyboard.

[Yekutiel]

Thank you for your helpful approach.

[Yekutiel]

I figured out how to do this. It is very easy. If anyone is interested please post indicating your interest and I will post an explanation.

[ghost]

Hey, I've just read this thread (because I had some input and wanted to get caught up first) and I am very annoyed at the amount of useless argument that I found while reading through it. This issue tracker is a place to discuss problems with the distribution and work to get them fixed. This issue tracker is not a place to have arguments with team members about pointless topics like our reasoning for doing or not doing any specific thing and our arguing skills. Please refrain from this in the future, because I will close any issues that turn into this sort of back and forth and open new ones.

You can mute/unmute the audio by middle clicking (that's with 3 fingers on the trackpad) on the volume icon in the panel.