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Finalize remaining human dimensions indicators #23

Open CarissaGervasi-NOAA opened 2 months ago

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 2 months ago

@SeannRegan-NOAA @afreitag33

We are getting close to finalizing all the indicators for the Caribbean ESR! I just have a few quick questions for you guys.  On the population indicator: Seann you added a data file to github (CENSUS_PR_USVI_simple_Population_2000-2020.csv), but I'm not entirely sure where the info came from. I looked at the data for PR here, but it only goes back to 2010, your data go back to 2000. I'm also not sure where the USVI data are from. Is there an API where we can pull this info automatically?

For the ocean economy indicator, do the data come from here? If so I'm not totally sure which file is used. I think we could use this API to pull the data directly. I can play around with doing that but I want to make sure I pull the correct data. If either of you have already worked with this and have R code let me know.

Thanks! Carissa

SeannRegan-NOAA commented 2 months ago

Hi Carissa,

Just to follow up the population data actually comes from the UN ( https://population.un.org/wpp/) because the official census did not go back in time and we wanted a better temporal look at this.

Cheers,

Seann

On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 3:58 PM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

@SeannRegan-NOAA https://github.com/SeannRegan-NOAA @afreitag33 https://github.com/afreitag33

We are getting close to finalizing all the indicators for the Caribbean ESR! I just have a few quick questions for you guys. On the population indicator: Seann you added a data file to github (CENSUS_PR_USVI_simple_Population_2000-2020.csv), but I'm not entirely sure where the info came from. I looked at the data for PR here https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/popest/technical-documentation/research/evaluation-estimates/2020-evaluation-estimates/2010s-total-puerto-rico-municipios.html, but it only goes back to 2010, your data go back to 2000. I'm also not sure where the USVI data are from. Is there an API where we can pull this info automatically?

For the ocean economy indicator, do the data come from here https://www.bls.gov/cew/downloadable-data-files.htm? If so I'm not totally sure which file is used. I think we could use this API https://www.bls.gov/developers/ to pull the data directly. I can play around with doing that but I want to make sure I pull the correct data. If either of you have already worked with this and have R code let me know.

Thanks! Carissa

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--

Seann Dinnon Regan, MA

Geographer/Social Scientist

CSS, under contract to NOAA

National Centers for Coastal Ocean Science

NOAA National Ocean Service

Hollings Marine Laboratory - Charleston, SC

‪(843) 603-1576‬

MandyKarnauskas-NOAA commented 2 months ago

@CarissaGervasi-NOAA see this page it has R instructions for pulling the data directly from the API https://population.un.org/dataportal/about/dataapi

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 2 months ago

Perfect, I'll work on that!

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 2 months ago

I automated pulling the population data using the UN API. See my code here.

@SeannRegan-NOAA I just want to double check that I pulled the correct data since the numbers are slightly different from what was in the csv file you shared (and all years are available for USVI online). I pulled "Total population by sex" for PR and USVI and selected "Both sexes". This is the data for USVI on the data portal. Is this the correct indicator to use?

Also, the data on the portal go back to 1990, but your csv file only went back to 2000. Was there a reason for chopping off the earlier data?

Finally, 2023 and 2024 values are available but they are projections. Should I include those years in the final figure?

SeannRegan-NOAA commented 2 months ago

Hi @Carissa Gervasi - NOAA Affiliate @.***>

That sounds great, glad you were able to get this API/code to work. The data I uploaded from the UN should go back to 1950 but end in 2021. (census data do not go back as far). I would say that you use the UN APIs data and yes using projections into the future makes sense. (likely slight differences in data as when they project they often back project as well).

So long story short, yes use the UN population data and I would say include the projection 2023 and 2024 data.

Cheers,

Seann

On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:43 AM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

I automated pulling the population data using the UN API. See my code here https://github.com/Gulf-IEA/Caribbean-ESR/blob/main/indicator_processing/automated_download/population.R .

@SeannRegan-NOAA https://github.com/SeannRegan-NOAA I just want to double check that I pulled the correct data since the numbers are slightly different from what was in the csv file you shared (and all years are available for USVI online). I pulled "Total population by sex" for PR and USVI and selected "Both sexes". This https://population.un.org/dataportal/data/indicators/49/locations/850/start/1990/end/2024/table/pivotbylocation?df=64fef12d-bb8f-45a8-b646-2ca684c82bb8 is the data for USVI on the data portal. Is this the correct indicator to use?

Also, the data on the portal go back to 1990, but your csv file only went back to 2000. Was there a reason for chopping off the earlier data?

Finally, 2023 and 2024 values are available but they are projections. Should I include those years in the final figure?

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--

Seann Dinnon Regan, MA

Geographer/Social Scientist

CSS, under contract to NOAA

National Centers for Coastal Ocean Science

NOAA National Ocean Service

Hollings Marine Laboratory - Charleston, SC

‪(843) 603-1576‬

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 2 months ago

Perfect, thanks Seann!

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Hi @SeannRegan-NOAA. Is it possible to update the ocean economy indicators? The data in the csv file only go to 2020. I tried playing around with the API to pull the data directly but I could not get the API to work. Thanks!

SeannRegan-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Hi Carissa,

Sure no problem, I will take a look now. Can you point me to what exact data we need to update? (also ccing Amy as it may have been some data she pulled from OCM). I think you are wanting the employment/unemployment data that unfortunately was cobbled together from a few sources. Is that correct?

Overall ocean economy should come from OCM though.

https://coast.noaa.gov/enowexplorer/#/employment/total/2021/78000/

Cheers,

Seann

On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 7:42 PM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

Hi @SeannRegan-NOAA https://github.com/SeannRegan-NOAA. Is it possible to update the ocean economy indicators? The data in the csv file only go to

  1. I tried playing around with the API to pull the data directly but I could not get the API to work. Thanks!

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--

Seann Dinnon Regan, MA

Geographer/Social Scientist

CSS, under contract to NOAA

National Centers for Coastal Ocean Science

NOAA National Ocean Service

Hollings Marine Laboratory - Charleston, SC

‪(843) 603-1576‬

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Thanks Seann! The dataset we have right now is in the indicator_data folder and is titled OceanNAICS.csv. I'm not sure if I was you or Amy who added that file.

In that file there is ocean economy GDP, establishments, employees, and wages for PR and USVI. If you think there is a better indicator, by all means share whatever you think is best!

tagging @SeannRegan-NOAA @afreitag33

afreitag33 commented 1 month ago

Yep, this one was me. The data's originally from BLS, compiled according to OCM methods on determining "ocean". I'm pretty sure I just used the website, not the API. But just circling the horses, is this the API you tried to use Carissa? https://www.bls.gov/cew/downloadable-data-files.htm

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 10:22 AM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

Thanks Seann! The dataset we have right now is in the indicator_data folder and is titled OceanNAICS.csv. I'm not sure if I was you or Amy who added that file.

In that file there is ocean economy GDP, establishments, employees, and wages for PR and USVI. If you think there is a better indicator, by all means share whatever you think is best!

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/Gulf-IEA/Caribbean-ESR/issues/23#issuecomment-2236670086, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AJWQ2DWDYIA2VKOCZBLSWCDZM7FTNAVCNFSM6AAAAABJJB27ZGVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDEMZWGY3TAMBYGY . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

-- Amy Freitag, Ph.D. @.*** @bgrassbluecrab

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Thanks @afreitag33! Yup that's the API. I got an API key, found the code to download the data, figured out what codes I needed to use to download for specific regions and employment types, but when I ran the code I kept getting empty data frames. I think it might be a problem with the API itself. Even the example scripts I found weren't working. Could have been user error on my part too but even chat GPT couldn't help me fix it 😂

afreitag33 commented 1 month ago

Actually, scratch that. I did calculate it from BLS data, but 1992-2020, so this is definitely OCM's data which they must have updated since then. Now I don't remember if Seann or I updated it, but it's easy enough to update. In which case, the API in question is this one: https://coast.noaa.gov/api/enow/ Amy

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 10:37 AM Amy Freitag @.***> wrote:

Yep, this one was me. The data's originally from BLS, compiled according to OCM methods on determining "ocean". I'm pretty sure I just used the website, not the API. But just circling the horses, is this the API you tried to use Carissa? https://www.bls.gov/cew/downloadable-data-files.htm

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 10:22 AM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

Thanks Seann! The dataset we have right now is in the indicator_data folder and is titled OceanNAICS.csv. I'm not sure if I was you or Amy who added that file.

In that file there is ocean economy GDP, establishments, employees, and wages for PR and USVI. If you think there is a better indicator, by all means share whatever you think is best!

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/Gulf-IEA/Caribbean-ESR/issues/23#issuecomment-2236670086, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AJWQ2DWDYIA2VKOCZBLSWCDZM7FTNAVCNFSM6AAAAABJJB27ZGVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDEMZWGY3TAMBYGY . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

-- Amy Freitag, Ph.D. @.*** @bgrassbluecrab

-- Amy Freitag, Ph.D. @.*** @bgrassbluecrab

SeannRegan-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Well if chat GPT can't solve it all is lost! Sorry it has been awhile since I looked at these data. Thanks for the updated link @Amy Freitag - NOAA Federal @.***>

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 10:44 AM afreitag33 @.***> wrote:

Actually, scratch that. I did calculate it from BLS data, but 1992-2020, so this is definitely OCM's data which they must have updated since then. Now I don't remember if Seann or I updated it, but it's easy enough to update. In which case, the API in question is this one: https://coast.noaa.gov/api/enow/ Amy

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 10:37 AM Amy Freitag @.***> wrote:

Yep, this one was me. The data's originally from BLS, compiled according to OCM methods on determining "ocean". I'm pretty sure I just used the website, not the API. But just circling the horses, is this the API you tried to use Carissa? https://www.bls.gov/cew/downloadable-data-files.htm

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 10:22 AM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

Thanks Seann! The dataset we have right now is in the indicator_data folder and is titled OceanNAICS.csv. I'm not sure if I was you or Amy who added that file.

In that file there is ocean economy GDP, establishments, employees, and wages for PR and USVI. If you think there is a better indicator, by all means share whatever you think is best!

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < https://github.com/Gulf-IEA/Caribbean-ESR/issues/23#issuecomment-2236670086>,

or unsubscribe < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AJWQ2DWDYIA2VKOCZBLSWCDZM7FTNAVCNFSM6AAAAABJJB27ZGVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDEMZWGY3TAMBYGY>

. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

-- Amy Freitag, Ph.D. @.*** @bgrassbluecrab

-- Amy Freitag, Ph.D. @.*** @bgrassbluecrab

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--

Seann Dinnon Regan, MA

Geographer/Social Scientist

CSS, under contract to NOAA

National Centers for Coastal Ocean Science

NOAA National Ocean Service

Hollings Marine Laboratory - Charleston, SC

‪(843) 603-1576‬

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Hm. I am only seeing data for PR and USVI from 2019-2021 on ENOW. Is this the right dataset? https://coast.noaa.gov/digitalcoast/data/enow-nes.html

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 1 month ago

oops I meant this one. Same issue though: https://coast.noaa.gov/digitalcoast/data/enow.html

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Sorry @afreitag33 not sure if you get the emails if I don't tag you. Let me know if you do

SeannRegan-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Hey Carissa,

Yea I think so...the OCM folks updated their methodology for the territories (USVI etc. etc.) so I think the data is either the previous data (what we currently have) or the new approach 2019-2021...Amy does that all ring true with you?

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 11:03 AM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

oops I meant this one. Same issue though: https://coast.noaa.gov/digitalcoast/data/enow.html

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--

Seann Dinnon Regan, MA

Geographer/Social Scientist

CSS, under contract to NOAA

National Centers for Coastal Ocean Science

NOAA National Ocean Service

Hollings Marine Laboratory - Charleston, SC

‪(843) 603-1576‬

afreitag33 commented 1 month ago

Seann's faster than me! Yes, he is right. That squares with what I thought

?) Seann, are you the source of the ENOW data? Can we confirm that's where it is from?

And yes, Carissa, I get the emails even if you don't tag me. Amy

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 11:03 AM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

oops I meant this one. Same issue though: https://coast.noaa.gov/digitalcoast/data/enow.html

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-- Amy Freitag, Ph.D. @.*** @bgrassbluecrab

CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Ok great, thanks for the clarification and sorry for all the emails :)

I did a quick comparison between what is in the csv file for 2019 and 2020 and what is available on ENOW and the numbers are quite a bit different. So I am not sure we want to just combine the two datasets. Puerto Rico GDP is especially off. In the csv is it about 100 billion but in ENOW it's closer to 1 billion. Establishments, employees, and wages are more similar but the values are actually all quite a bit lower in the ENOW dataset. Let us know what you guys think is the best approach.

SeannRegan-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Thanks Carissa, so speedy! I 100% agree we can't just combine the two and I was doing the same thing as a gut check...I think OCM pretty drastically updated what was included in the "marine economy" based on stakeholder feedback and input from folks in the USVI and PR. We (Amy/Me/NCCOS) were not apart of those efforts but I recall hearing it was a big lift.

My vote...even though it means much less data would be to use the 2019-2021 data as that is the most recent data (or the original) and I know folks did not like the previous data because it essentially treated the USVI/territories in a similar manner to the states.

Cheers,

Seann

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 11:24 AM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

Ok great, thanks for the clarification and sorry for all the emails :)

I did a quick comparison between what is in the csv file for 2019 and 2020 and what is available on ENOW and the numbers are quite a bit different. So I am not sure we want to just combine the two datasets. Puerto Rico GDP is especially off. In the csv is it about 100 billion but in ENOW it's closer to 1 billion. Establishments, employees, and wages are more similar but the values are actually all quite a bit lower in the ENOW dataset. Let us know what you guys think is the best approach.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/Gulf-IEA/Caribbean-ESR/issues/23#issuecomment-2236854506, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/A44S6HYR7V2LDQOWGWDS7XDZM7M2NAVCNFSM6AAAAABJJB27ZGVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDEMZWHA2TINJQGY . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

--

Seann Dinnon Regan, MA

Geographer/Social Scientist

CSS, under contract to NOAA

National Centers for Coastal Ocean Science

NOAA National Ocean Service

Hollings Marine Laboratory - Charleston, SC

‪(843) 603-1576‬

afreitag33 commented 1 month ago

I'm leaning towards Seann's solution of sticking with just 3 years of data unless you were relying on a time series for some sort of conclusion. Given the pushback they've had against the original methodology, that would apply to our old data, their old data, and anything we could easily recreate from BLS without getting up to speed on the new methods. Granted, the new methods might just be a smaller set of NAICS codes, so a subset of the original data. It might not be impossible.

And for GDP, it looks like in the file we have (OceanNAICS) that's actual, total GDP rather than the ocean GDP that ENOW reports. That's likely a hangover from looking up BLS data (which doesn't pull out industry specific GDPs publicly). So if we are going with the old data or re-creation of old data, make sure that's communicated properly.

Carissa, let me know what you'd like to do. Happy to help dig into the new methodology a bit if you want to sniff up that tree, but I really only have a little time next week to throw at this and then a bunch of travel. Amy

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 11:30 AM SeannRegan-NOAA @.***> wrote:

Thanks Carissa, so speedy! I 100% agree we can't just combine the two and I was doing the same thing as a gut check...I think OCM pretty drastically updated what was included in the "marine economy" based on stakeholder feedback and input from folks in the USVI and PR. We (Amy/Me/NCCOS) were not apart of those efforts but I recall hearing it was a big lift.

My vote...even though it means much less data would be to use the 2019-2021 data as that is the most recent data (or the original) and I know folks did not like the previous data because it essentially treated the USVI/territories in a similar manner to the states.

Cheers,

Seann

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 11:24 AM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

Ok great, thanks for the clarification and sorry for all the emails :)

I did a quick comparison between what is in the csv file for 2019 and 2020 and what is available on ENOW and the numbers are quite a bit different. So I am not sure we want to just combine the two datasets. Puerto Rico GDP is especially off. In the csv is it about 100 billion but in ENOW it's closer to 1 billion. Establishments, employees, and wages are more similar but the values are actually all quite a bit lower in the ENOW dataset. Let us know what you guys think is the best approach.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < https://github.com/Gulf-IEA/Caribbean-ESR/issues/23#issuecomment-2236854506>,

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--

Seann Dinnon Regan, MA

Geographer/Social Scientist

CSS, under contract to NOAA

National Centers for Coastal Ocean Science

NOAA National Ocean Service

Hollings Marine Laboratory - Charleston, SC

‪(843) 603-1576‬

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CarissaGervasi-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Thanks so much both of you! It seems to me like going with the new methodology is prudent. I can create an indicator with the 3 years of data available for now. Amy, if you are able to get a quick sense of whether it's even possible to download older data from BLS using the new methodology that would be great, then we will at least know if it's possible to take a stab at it.

Not a huge rush on that, as we won't be able to update the data before the TAP meeting anyways, but could potentially before we publish the report later this year.

If it's just a matter of downloading the right group of NAICS codes from BLS I could probably do that easily. But if the new methodology is more complex than that, maybe we just stick with the recent data. @MandyKarnauskas-NOAA let us know if you have any thoughts.

afreitag33 commented 1 month ago

Ok I poked around the ENOW website for methods. Their FAQ's which list the NAICS codes included is still from 2017 so doesn't cover any adjustments they did recently for the territories. Their PR fact sheet ( https://coast.noaa.gov/data/digitalcoast/pdf/enow-pr.pdf) lists many more data sources than just QCEW, so I'm guessing they're pulling from multiple places these days - meaning it's not an easy update. I think that means we land back at using the 3 years of ENOW.

Seann, do you know someone over at OCM? Think you could poke them about getting a copy of the methods for the territories? Now I'm just curious. Amy

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 12:32 PM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

Thanks so much both of you! It seems to me like going with the new methodology is prudent. I can create an indicator with the 3 years of data available for now. Amy, if you are able to get a quick sense of whether it's even possible to download older data from BLS using the new methodology that would be great, then we will at least know if it's possible to take a stab at it.

Not a huge rush on that, as we won't be able to update the data before the TAP meeting anyways, but could potentially before we publish the report later this year.

If it's just a matter of downloading the right group of NAICS codes from BLS I could probably do that easily. But if the new methodology is more complex than that, maybe we just stick with the recent data. @MandyKarnauskas-NOAA https://github.com/MandyKarnauskas-NOAA let us know if you have any thoughts.

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afreitag33 commented 1 month ago

Ok one more and I'm done! I'm going to email you an old R script of mine for pulling Gulf ENOW data if you want it and it works for here (it's about a year old). You just need to swap the GEOID in the "read data in" section. (I tried to attach it but you can't attach R scripts, I guess those should go elsewhere).

SeannRegan-NOAA commented 1 month ago

Well here is the press release to this new effort:

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/news/nov16/caribbean-report.html

And I believe this is the updated methods effort that was led by Abt associates.

https://repository.library.noaa.gov/view/noaa/20724

Cheers,

Seann

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 2:05 PM afreitag33 @.***> wrote:

Ok I poked around the ENOW website for methods. Their FAQ's which list the NAICS codes included is still from 2017 so doesn't cover any adjustments they did recently for the territories. Their PR fact sheet ( https://coast.noaa.gov/data/digitalcoast/pdf/enow-pr.pdf) lists many more data sources than just QCEW, so I'm guessing they're pulling from multiple places these days - meaning it's not an easy update. I think that means we land back at using the 3 years of ENOW.

Seann, do you know someone over at OCM? Think you could poke them about getting a copy of the methods for the territories? Now I'm just curious. Amy

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 12:32 PM Carissa Gervasi @.***> wrote:

Thanks so much both of you! It seems to me like going with the new methodology is prudent. I can create an indicator with the 3 years of data available for now. Amy, if you are able to get a quick sense of whether it's even possible to download older data from BLS using the new methodology that would be great, then we will at least know if it's possible to take a stab at it.

Not a huge rush on that, as we won't be able to update the data before the TAP meeting anyways, but could potentially before we publish the report later this year.

If it's just a matter of downloading the right group of NAICS codes from BLS I could probably do that easily. But if the new methodology is more complex than that, maybe we just stick with the recent data. @MandyKarnauskas-NOAA https://github.com/MandyKarnauskas-NOAA let us know if you have any thoughts.

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