SP: IF ONLY I WERE THIS RICH IN RL (aka: too many RUs in campaign)

[Echo1707]

HW1C didn't have autocollection, but it is present in the RM version. The autocollection rate in HW1RM M03 is 100%, but I don't know where this value is stored.

It's okay to have an autocollect in the HW2 campaign. but I'd rather not have it on HW1. There might be already way too many RUs in the remastered already.

[cloaked2222]

Ideally RUs need to be adjusted on all hw1 mission levels. FYI some levels spawn more dust clouds when the player is struggling.

Setting auto-collect to say 50% if possible may be the quick fix. Some ppl like to auto-collect, but obviously it collects way too much ru.

Do some research on GBX forums, there are many posts on this topic.

Edit: Per echo, campaign asteroids will rarely increase their amount of RU if your fleet is tiny. They do not decrease the RU.

[Echo1707]

I'm playing the classic version that comes with the Gearbox bundle and using the Splendor mod on top of it, and there is no autocollect.

Edit: I don't know if the autocollect is per-mission or if it is campaign-wide or if it affects the HW2 campaign too

Edit 2: had a discussion on Discord about autocollect. The most interesting points against removing/reducing autocollect are that it would add a lot of time at the end of missions to harvest the map, expecially on big maps, and that players shouldn't be rewarded for afk mining. There are no threats, there is no micro nor attention involved in it, so it's just a time-sink that doesn't really need to be. Also, there might not even be a need for mining except for the early missions and for when prompted by the game, because the enemies rarely use collectors of their own, so there is no need to harvest as many resources as possible. Also, why collecting resources when you can steal what the enemy has to offer? (in HW1C, the enemies would evade salvettes and focus them down, but in the remastered they don't evade, so it's easier to steal ships; and ships can be stolen and used even beyond the population cap) Some of the points in favor of removing automine are that, if we intend the campaign as a tutorial, it teaches that mining is important by having a few mission objective that regards resourcing, for example during M07 the Kadeshi focus your collectors (or at least they did in classic), so it could be seen as an hint that defending one's econ is important. Also it would add immersion and it would make more important not to rush objectives (M02 & 05 come to mind).

[Echo1707]

In addition to the edits above, there is also the fact that having autocollect at anything different than 100% (0% included) adds another variable to the equation of SP balancing: how much time is the average player going to spend on resourcing (and with how many collcetors).

So, unless something major comes against autocollecting, I would change the topic of this issue in HW1RM SP: too many RUs.

[cloaked2222]

Change the topic title. That's the real issue here "IF ONLY I WERE THIS RICH IN RL". (If I were btw, we'd have an official 3.0 patch by now...)

Remember that after lowering mission map RUs, there are new players that actually struggle to get by. So adding more spawn-able dust clouds for said players may be a good idea. The worst thing would be for a new player to start a mission with nothing left in his fleet, not have enough ru on the map to beat the mission, and have to restart the prior mission just to be able to progress. This is the challenge of a persistent fleet throughout the campaign.

[cloaked2222]

FYI, all the other key 2.205 campaign files are now here: https://github.com/HW-PlayersPatch/2.3/blob/Cloaked/Resources/2.205%20Campaign%20Files.zip

[cloaked2222]

Continuing the mission RU discussion from the HW1 Research changes thread: https://github.com/HW-PlayersPatch/2.3/issues/53#issuecomment-409924414

Contrary to this thread's title we actually increased mission RU as a quick fix for the above research changes, lol.

M1 and M2 especially may especially have too much RU now (due to my last minute changes....). Do players have to sit around harvesting every last RU, or can they just click the hyperspace/auto-collect button? If we have to, we could lower the map RUs, and potentially increase M1 starting 750rus. (I was kinda avoiding that, as it seems like ppl would take notice - however it may be the best option.)

So where do we go from here? Discuss.

[Echo1707]

It is possible to complete the missions very quickly (or at least, as fast as possible), autocollect at the end of the first two missions and still win: just as a reference, in M01 I made the bare minimum required to accomplish the mission (so no int research), retired all 7 scouts, harvested everything, and started M02 with 14 salvage corvettes; then in M02 I just salvaged the turanic raiders corvettes and had them kill the fighters.

In comparison, in HW1C it was very difficult to salvage the turanic corvettes, since these would avoid them. A tactic used was to order the salvettes to kamikaze against the tur corvettes, and at the last second order them to salvage. So the average player went with mass ints from M01 (which I don't agree with since RUs are scarse and you need them for salvettes / repair corvettes at the start of M02).

In HW1C, researches didn't cost RUs, but their research times were very long (even longer than current 2.3b9 - not counting RU costs vs RU intake). So when the Bentusi show up, you are presented with the choice of paying RUs (in an RU-scarce environment) to get early access to ships that will help you greately in the same/next mission(s). Currently in RM, Bentusi sell teches at lower than full price, which should be changed (x1.5 or x2 times the nominal cost maybe? Need testing).

Some other options we have are: increse SP collectors' collection rate (RU intake per second, cargo hold...) and reduce teches cost for SP.

I did a playthrough of the first 3 missions at difficulty scale 3.0. I did these missions as fast as possible, activating all the events as soon as I could and harvesting/building only until mission end, and then hyperspaced out right away. Here is the end result (please let me know if you can't see or download the video from Dropbox, I'll try to upload it somewhere else): https://www.dropbox.com/s/x0c3uz4sypzv76m/HW1RM%202.3b9%20M01-02-03.mp4?dl=0

The files referencefleet.lua inside "leveldata\campaign, campaign name, mission number" contain the fleet/RUs that the engine is expecting you to have at the start of that mission. Changing this file will make missions easier (if the expected fleet/RU are increased) or harder (if the expected fleet are reduced).

[cloaked2222]

Mission	2.205 Cost	b8 Cost	Research Cost Change	Current 2.205 to WIP Level RU Change	Desired 2.205 to WIP Level RU Change
1	200	800	600	1500	750
2	1200	3300	2100	2247	2132
3	900	1500	600	100	669
4	500	1000	500	0	500
4.5 Raiders Retreat	400	1000	600	0	500
5	700	2000	1300	595	1275
6	2350	3350	1000	1582	997.5
7	600	800	200	0	0
8	550	650	100	0	100
9	700	500	-200	0	0
10	1000	1700	700	867	693
11	0	0	0	0	0
12	1450	2850	1400	600	1395
13	3700	9800	6100	6008	5968
14	150	1000	850	0	765
15	0	0	0	0	0
16	0	0	0	0	0

See 2.3 HW1 Campaign RU.xlsx for details.

[Echo1707]

M02: +20 (2112 ---> 2132) [there was a dust cloud with 750 RU which was further away than the asteroids. Reduced the dustcloud to 500 RU all 9 asteroids with 220 RU go up to 250 RU]

M04: +500 (OK) [8x225 + 10x900 ---> 8x250 + 10x930]

M04.5: lower priority compared to proper campaign

M05: +696 (1300-595 = 705) [84x223 + 24x80 ---> 84x231 + 24x81] {could have been 24x82, but I'm going with less resources to have less ships when the player encounters the swarmers}

M06: -594 (1000-1582 = -582) [22x100 ---> 22x73] {could have been 22x74, but I'm going with less resources to have less ships when the player encounters the swarmers; note for proper campaign balancing: maybe kamikaze asteroids could yield less resources or standard asteroids could go to zero?}

M07 and M08: not reallly any need to change them for a few RUs. Unless we cut M06 and M07 RUs to something that forces the player to start those missions with so few ships that swarmers aren't a threat (as long as they have 1 drone frig and 2 support frig). Best way to address these missions would be to increase defenders?/multiguns effectiveness vs swarmers and/or increase the values in referenceflee.lua

M10: 693 (1700-1000 = 700) [9x43 + 21x70 ---> 9x50 + 21x100] {I reverted the file to it's original 2.205 status (minus the camera starting position) because asteroids have sizes lol}

M12: +759 (1400-600 = 800) [15x415 ---> 15x468]

M14: +765 (850-0 = 850) [1x425 ---> 1x1190] {ah, this mission, have to be careful where RUs are added: Taiidan will harvest some of them}

[Echo1707]

I updated my comment above, please have a look :) https://github.com/HW-PlayersPatch/2.3/issues/43#issuecomment-412301243

[cloaked2222]

Rofl about Bentusi, ya the research cost from Bentusi should be a bit higher than normal then. Maybe 1.25x or so. Can you post the hw1c and HWR Bentusi research costs?

[Echo1707]

HW1C M04, Ion Cannon Research: from 300 RUs to 500 RUs (depends on starting RUs?) M06, Drone/Defense Field Technology: 500 RUs

HW1RM M04, Ion Cannon Research: 500 RUs (2000 RUs in b9) M06, Drone Technology: 500 RUs (1300 RUs in b9)

To put things into perspective (not counting scouts retirement nor assault frigs retirement, only harvestable RUs):

HW1C HW1RM M01: 750 starting RUs + 600 RUs = 1350 RUs HW1RM M02: 2382 RUs (+ 1350 RUs = 3732 RUs total) [there is a RU nebula that is impossible or very hard to reach, so I left some RUs behind in this mission] HW1RM M03: 3286 RUs (+ 3732 RUs = 7018 RUs total) HW1RM M04: 3890 RUs (+ 7018 RUs = 10908 RUs total)

HW1RM HW1RM M01: 750 starting RUs + 2250 RUs = 3000 RUs [NOT counting scouts retirement] HW1RM M02: 8270 RUs (+ 3000 RUs = 11270 RUs total) HW1RM M03: 4512.5 RUs (+ 11270 RUs = 15782.5 RUs total) [NOT counting assault frigs retirement] HW1RM M04: 11300 RUs (+ 15782.5 RUs = 27082.5 RUs total)

[cloaked2222]

Depending on the mission dialog, I'd say make the research from the Bentusi cost the same or just a bit more: Ions: 2000 or 2500 Drones: 1300 or 1600

Edit: Fanthomas said the Bentusi offered him Plasma bombs in M4 instead of ion cannons? hrm.

Edit: on another note, Fanthomas mentioned campaign harvesting may be slower than hw1c due to the lower ru capacity. Consider increasing ru capacity for SP only if we don't lower research costs and map ru in build 10.

[cloaked2222]

Bentusi research now costs the same as normally researching the items, however if you have super low RU your offered it at a discount. Level RU was aligned well with HW1 research costs in build 10. We may still get rich playing SP, but perhaps there are those that are barely getting by.

[cloaked2222]

People are still getting way to rich: https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/1190476337/1621724915765581929/?ctp=4#c2273701484020702460

We need to determine how much RU each level had in hw1c, and update the level RU to be relatively similar.

[cloaked2222]

Pie in the sky. Good enough as is.