Separate Stat Re-allocation from Class Change

[lemoness]

A bunch of new skill changes are in the works, and lots of people will probably want to change their stats around to try them out. Currently, the only way to do this is by changing class, which costs gems.

We can't make Change Class free because it is an important source of revenue for the site and so removing it would hurt HabitRPG, but we CAN separate out Stat Re-allocation and make it gold purchasable instead of gem-purchasable! This way, non-paying users can switch around their stats, and there is a new gold sink on the site:)

Since this is a Major Gold Sink, it should probably cost 100 gold to be consistent with other planned Major Gold Sinks like the Enchanted Armoire.

[SabreCat]

I would caution against adding a preference or setting for it. If it's a problematic design choice to implement this, then it's still problematic if you put it behind an extra click. It feels like passing the buck.

On Sat, May 2, 2015, 9:00 PM Alys notifications@github.com wrote:

@agentx999 https://github.com/agentx999 Thank you for taking the time to make those comments! We are definitely interested in hearing both sides of the debate. Most of the comments so far have been in favour of the gold-purchase option, but those who have been against it have made strong points, as you did, about not being able to ignore the option.

I like your idea of making the cost a fraction of your gold. It is not something we currently do for gold-purchasable items but we might want to consider it. (@lemoness https://github.com/lemoness FYI)

One other thing we could do is make a preference setting that removes the option to change your attribute allocations using gold (you'd still be able to by using gems). Obviously, you could turn off the preference setting at any time you wanted to, but perhaps the act of initially turning on the setting would be enough to reduce the temptation? You'd effectively be saying to yourself "I choose to always play HabitRPG without the ability to change stats with gold." I think that would work for me, but I have no idea about anyone else! What do you think about the idea? (I also welcome comments about this from anyone else who would prefer to not have the gold-purchase option available.)

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/HabitRPG/habitrpg/issues/5082#issuecomment-98426326.

[mayajosyula]

@Alys Thank you for your response! About the preference setting...I'm not sure. Yes, like you said, I do think it would help in reducing the temptation to reallocate every day. But I can think of special cases: what do I do if my party is on a difficult boss quest and near death, and my casting Burst of Flames or Ethereal Surge would substantially help them? Reallocating all my points to INT would not only give me more mana to cast, it would also make those skills more powerful. Should I go back on my promise not to reallocate, potentially harming my party, or should I reallocate, saving them, but breaking the promise, which would in turn lead to my being more likely to break it in the future (plus the added guilt I may feel afterwards)? ...My party is very diligent, so I doubt that would happen to me often. But I'm sure there are people using the site that would face it more frequently.

edit: sorry, bad wording - increasing INT doesn't give you more MP, but it does give you the potential to gain more, by completing tasks, etc.

I also agree with what was just said about how adding a preference doesn't really change the fact that it could be a problem. A preference would be me ignoring the feature except I now have to click a button to ignore it - it's basically the same thing. Then again, opting out of the class system has a similar setting, so...like I said, I'm not sure.

[tahtimittari]

I would like to re-allocate my stats - 444cf175-e917-4683-a40d-498b09146148

[ghost]

A preference wouldn't work for me either, I couldn't easily ignore something that is within the "rules". It's quite different from Fix Character Values because that's there to fix things if something goes wrong (eg. I'm not able to check off a daily but did complete it on time).

Making the cost a fraction of your total gold wouldn't work either, I'd just dump all my gold into gem purchases and get my stats reallocated for a few gold at most. I've only played to level 20 so this might not be the same at higher levels however I expect it'd continue for quite some time. As a completionist I've got to buy 4 classes worth of gear (incl. seasonal gear) and can always use the gems for eggs / food / mounts. I'm sure it'd be a long time before the cost of reallocating stats would be prohibitive.

Actually, given that I enjoy stacking achievements (I've 3 rebirths not higher than level 20) the only limiting factor is the number of gems I can buy with gold.

Reallocating as part of general gameplay would be ok so long as it's not something you can do very frequently; I don't have a problem with reallocating to deal with scenarios like @agentx999 describes so long as it can't be done frequently.

What if reallocation had a one day cooldown and the gold cost doubled each time. The cost would then reduce by 10% each day until it returned to the original level. For example:

Day 1: 100g, reallocation purchased Day 2: On cooldown Day 3: 200g Day 4: 180g Day 5: 162g Day 6: 146g, reallocation purchased Day 7: On cooldown Day 8: 292g Day 9: 263g Day 10: 237g Day 11: 213g

Actually, looking at those numbers a reduction of 20% would probably be better. Having a cooldown might be unnecessary too. Having the base cost of reallocation being linked to level could help keep it balanced at lower levels too which would help new players who want to experiment.

[deilann]

I like the doubling/cooldown solution quite a bit, actually.

It'd also be interesting to have the cost be based on level. This makes sense in an interesting way beyond gold production increasing with level... you have more attribute points at a higher level, so reallocating them has more impact!

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 5:09 AM, Glen Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

A preference wouldn't work for me either, I couldn't easily ignore something that is within the "rules". It's quite different from Fix Character Values because that's there to fix things if something goes wrong (eg. I'm not able to check off a daily but did complete it on time).

Making the cost a fraction of your total gold wouldn't work either, I'd just dump all my gold into gem purchases and get my stats reallocated for a few gold at most. I've only played to level 20 so this might not be the same at higher levels however I expect it'd continue for quite some time. As a completionist I've got to buy 4 classes worth of gear (incl. seasonal gear) and can always use the gems for eggs / food / mounts. I'm sure it'd be a long time before the cost of reallocating stats would be prohibitive.

Actually, given that I enjoy stacking achievements (I've 3 rebirths not higher than level 20) the only limiting factor is the number of gems I can buy with gold.

Reallocating as part of general gameplay would be ok so long as it's not something you can do very frequently; I don't have a problem with reallocating to deal with scenarios like @agentx999 https://github.com/agentx999 describes so long as it can't be done frequently.

What if reallocation had a one day cooldown and the gold cost doubled each time. The cost would then reduce by 10% each day until it returned to the original level. For example:

Day 1: 100g, reallocation purchased Day 2: On cooldown Day 3: 200g Day 4: 180g Day 5: 162g Day 6: 146g, reallocation purchased Day 7: On cooldown Day 8: 292g Day 9: 263g Day 10: 237g Day 11: 213g

Actually, looking at those numbers a reduction of 20% would probably be better. Having a cooldown might be unnecessary too. Having the base cost of reallocation being linked to level could help keep it balanced at lower levels too which would help new players who want to experiment.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/HabitRPG/habitrpg/issues/5082#issuecomment-98474522.

[crookedneighbor]

I like the gold amount * number of attributes idea.

[deilann]

Good point about number of attributes. It shouldn't increase in cost past level 100, as your stats don't continue to go up.

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 6:31 AM, Blade Barringer notifications@github.com wrote:

I like the gold amount * number of attributes idea.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/HabitRPG/habitrpg/issues/5082#issuecomment-98482119.

[mayajosyula]

I'm not a subscriber, so the thought of putting all your gold into gems never crossed my mind, haha. That's a good point. Wouldn't the gem cap significantly prevent you from doing that, though? You can only lose a max of 1000 GP per month - that's only 33/day, if you divide it. I'd personally see the effects of that cancel out quickly, since I earn way more than 33 GP a day.

I really like the idea of basing it off of your number of attributes - it makes a lot of sense, since reallocation would have more of an effect the higher level you are. And I'd be in full support of a cooldown period since that eliminates the main issue I have with this. (I'm not sure the doubling part alone would be enough.)

[Alys]

Attribute points have been reset for the players listed below. If you have added your UUID to this issue and do not appear in this list (nor in the list I posted earlier), please comment here again.

030d0e1a-21df-4d53-bc05-4fb0f7f8ffcd SubRosa Lux 444cf175-e917-4683-a40d-498b09146148 Tahtimittari 4472c281-8684-4063-b6fc-d79841f1e286 AustinPuk 609b6eec-a459-4096-93f9-770174c2072f teresa91 6743eeaf-5985-49a8-9119-76bf6ffdcf8b avecrux aaec07b5-b48b-4c91-b59f-a56369f7e3f7 geobat

[lemoness]

I think the implementation of the cooldown with the 20% reduction and doubling is way too complicated. We already get pushback over how complicated the site is - we want to make things very intuitive.

@agentx999 @glenanderson - One of the proposed ideas was to have a cap on the total number of times you could reallocate, for example 3 per class change. Would that address your concerns, or would it be too restrictive?

What about a cooldown by itself, just for a longer period of time - several days?

I'm intrigued by the gold cost being related to attribute points (10 per point?), since it's simpler, but I'm not totally sold.

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 5:21 PM, Alys notifications@github.com wrote:

Attribute points have been reset for the players listed below. If you have added your UUID to this issue and do not appear in this list (nor in the list I posted earlier), please comment here again.

030d0e1a-21df-4d53-bc05-4fb0f7f8ffcd SubRosa Lux 444cf175-e917-4683-a40d-498b09146148 Tahtimittari 4472c281-8684-4063-b6fc-d79841f1e286 AustinPuk 609b6eec-a459-4096-93f9-770174c2072f teresa91 6743eeaf-5985-49a8-9119-76bf6ffdcf8b avecrux aaec07b5-b48b-4c91-b59f-a56369f7e3f7 geobat

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/HabitRPG/habitrpg/issues/5082#issuecomment-98559516.

[mayajosyula]

@lemoness I might need some more time to think about both of those, but here are my initial thoughts.

One of the things I personally like the most about HabitRPG is that everything connects back to how productive you are. The gold, experience, mana, and drops you get from checking off a task can be used for equipment and casting skills and hatching pets and gaining levels and pretty much every (non-social) feature of HabitRPG that exists right now. I'd be opposed to the 3 per class change idea because it kind of messes that up. It basically says "here, you get this magical ability without working for it at all" and I think that's a little jarring when compared to the rest of the system.

I'd be more comfortable with the cooldown period over the 3 per class change, because at least that way the cost of reallocation is tied to your gold so it makes sense with everything else. I think the time delay would do a lot in preventing me and other people from reallocating their stats whenever they feel like it. But there's still the problem of some people like me finding the cost too cheap while other people finding it too expensive. There will be people struggling to pay that 100 gold, and there will be people that are able to afford it easily. I'm not sure it's fair to change something this significant and have the overall effect of it vary from player to player.

That's why I like the idea of reallocation cost scaling with attribute points. Since it's not a fixed cost, the too cheap vs. too expensive problem is significantly lessened. People that are higher leveled will a) have more gold in the first place and b) have more attribute points to reallocate, so it makes sense to have reallocation be more expensive for them. I'm not sure what the specific number to scale it by should be (that would affect things too), but I really think that this is the most reasonable option.

Then again, I think all three of the above are better than the original idea of 100 gold and no cooldown period.

...I really hope that made sense.

[ghost]

Having X reallocations per class change would give reallocation an indirect gem cost which seems to defeat the point of decoupling them. I agree with @agentx999 that it would be better if reallocations are earned in some way, even if that is just through gold.

Any cooldown should be long enough to prevent reallocation becoming part of regular gameplay but short enough that people can experiment on a reasonable timescale. I'm starting to think that a 1 day cooldown is insufficient from a gameplay perspective and that a longer cooldown makes experimenting too difficult.

What if stat reallocation was a potion of some sort in the market. When you choose/change classes the market has N in stock at a cost of X gold. There is no cooldown on the potions themselves but the market only gets restocked at a rate of 1 potion per week, and never has more than N in stock. This lets experimenters perform a few reallocations in a short period of time but prevents them from being used frequently as part of general gameplay. My first thought is that N = 3 would work well.

This is the kind of effect I was aiming for with the varying gold cost idea although I agree that was too complicated. This seems a lot less complicated to me and arguably clearer than a cooldown as there is nothing "hidden" going on in the background - if there's a potion in stock you can reallocate, if there isn't you must wait until there is another in stock. It could also make it easier to deal with changes to the class system in the future since you could just hand out an extra potion when changes are made.

There is also the possibility of adding other ways to earn said potions which wouldn't be the case if reallocation was just a new button next to class change. Maybe a subscription linked cap increase like there is for purchasing gems with gold.

Having a fixed cost that is suitable for high level players would suck for newer players who have just unlocked the class system. That's a time when people are likely to want to play around (I'd love to try a strength build, for instance) but 100g is worth a lot more at that stage than it is later on - 100g could get you 3 weapon upgrades at level 10. If 100g is the desired cost at level 100+ then 1g/point would be a good way to keep the cost sensible for lower level players.

I've got a few gripes with the general experience of levels 1-10 which I won't go into here, however, putting reallocation out of reach of players that have recently unlocked the class system would only make things worse.

[Zelah-Meyer]

If you want to link stat reallocation to an earned reward, then why not give people the option to reallocate their stats each time they level? You could also allow people to do that post level 100, which would give higher level players something they could work towards now that we don't get stat points post 100 anymore.

[SpartanRedWing]

I also support the idea of making Stat Reallocation gold purchasable. Similarly, I'd like to re-allocate after the recent changes.

[assaulted-peanut]

My UUID is f2435647-4d92-4176-a536-c29f6363f617 I would like to reset my points.

[oppes]

please reset my points: 8fe0a890-2ae6-4755-964e-9837caa1f104

[kiramarch]

Thanks for all the work behind the changes so far, and the thoughtful consideration for how to adjust attribute re-allocation. My comments on the suggestions made so far:

• Love: Linking cost of re-allocation to the number of attribute points you have accumulated. Please consider an escalating multiplier, too, to accentuate the effect. Early on, a few GP per attribute point might make it sufficiently expensive, but as a 94 rogue, I wouldn't even blink at 10GP per attribute point (940GP). (I might take that back after the adjustments to skills, though!)
• Love: Limiting availability through a potion that re-stocks in on a schedule. The metaphor is very intuitive!
• Love: Separating point allocation from class changes -- I have re-allocated without changing class several times. But include re-allocation with a class change. I can picture paying my three gems to switch classes, then having a potion appear in my rewards column at the same time (where the Spooky Sparkles and Shiny Seeds and such go, I would think?).
• Unsure: How much of a priority is it to limit re-allocation? I find it such a pain to click the buttons to assign all the points that it is enough discouragement for me! Would people really do that twice a day?If there is some less manual way of re-assigning all the points...I don't want to know. :)
• Unsure: Gold rather than gems...this feature is not essential to gameplay, so gems seem a fine way to access it and encourage subscription. I seem to be in the minority, though.
• Alternate suggestion: Don't tie re-allocation to GP or gems at all -- similar to Orb of Rebirth and many scrolls, gain the potion free at certain level(s), and charge gems for it otherwise. This would tie it to accomplishments, give everyone access, and take it out of everyday gameplay. Of course, it wouldn't address other goals, such as making it a gold sink or allowing frequent experimentation. However, I don't agree with the suggestion to allow re-allocation at every level-up. That seems like overkill, given level-ups a couple times a week.

Again, thanks for all the discussion, and I look forward to seeing how it all turns out!

[KenRhodes]

Maybe it's because I'm fairly new, or because I am a solo party and I don't do very much with quests, but I have yet to earn any gems at all. So the concept of being able to change point allocations without having to buy gems sounds great to me.

For that matter, buying gems with GP would be a welcome change for me. I would consider it appropriate to make the gems very expensive, but even just having a chance would make me like the gems as currency better.

[Alys]

@KenRhodes You can read about the ways of acquiring gems at Gems on the wiki.

Attribute points have been reset for the players listed below. If you have added your UUID to this issue and do not appear in this list (nor in the lists I posted earlier), please comment here again.

8fe0a890-2ae6-4755-964e-9837caa1f104 Oppes f2435647-4d92-4176-a536-c29f6363f617 assaulted_peanut

[reenenlaurie]

5b71bd34-22dc-4af8-a9c2-9c7bca83ec37

[ChristosPax]

Hey this is my User ID: cbdfd640-7c36-470a-8c42-d9cc69986109

Christos_Pax

[Alys]

Attribute points have been reset for the players listed below. If you have added your UUID to this issue and do not appear in this list (nor in the lists I posted earlier), please comment here again.

5b71bd34-22dc-4af8-a9c2-9c7bca83ec37 Reenen cbdfd640-7c36-470a-8c42-d9cc69986109 Christos_Pax

[earwin]

e30cffba-5253-45c5-9435-6c23e52df3cb pleease

[Alys]

@earwin Your attribute points have been reset.

[Alys]

Attribute points have been reset for Mithos (9964d8d7-c64d-4b61-8422-844dc8081912) from their request in the Tavern.

@lemoness The link to this GitHub ticket in the blog post isn't working.

[tdc0819]

30cce048-aae4-43da-9ce6-209b2028a4ca

Please reset my attribute points! Thank you!

[Alys]

@tdc0819 Your attribute points have been reset.

[rurupoisson]

I would like to reset my attribute points, thanks! b389ae1a-0330-4fc4-801c-e379c2ffac7b

[Alys]

@rurupoisson Your attribute points have been reset.

[Alys]

@lemoness Only 23 people put their UUIDs into this thread for having their attribute points reset for free, and one asked in the Tavern. That's far fewer than I was expecting! Attribute resets were less popular than I thought they'd be.

Given that, and the arguments presented here against easy attribute changes, I'm not sure that I'm still in favour of gold-purchasable stat re-allocation. There have been some interesting ideas proposed for limiting the number/frequency of re-allocations, but they tend to be complex and I dread the number of questions we'd get about them. (This is not intended to shut down the debate; I'm just describing my current opinion.)

[ghost]

I'm still in favour of switching to a gold cost but I think it'd be unwise to make any changes right now.

It would be better to reevaluate this after the other planned gold sinks have been released and people have had some time to adjust to them. If those gold sinks are working a simple gold fee would suffice; the pressure from the other gold sinks would be enough to limit the frequency of reallocations.

To put it another way; while you have other ideas for gold sinks, implement those first until the complex mechanics to limit reallocation are unnecessary.

[lemoness]

Agreed - I think we should put this on the back burner for a while, and then reassess in a month or two to see if it's a feature that is really needed at all.

On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Glen Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

I'm still in favour of switching to a gold cost but I think it'd be unwise to make any changes right now.

It would be better to reevaluate this after the other planned gold sinks have been released and people have had some time to adjust to them. If those gold sinks are working a simple gold fee would suffice; the pressure from the other gold sinks would be enough to limit the frequency of reallocations.

To put it another way; while you have other ideas for gold sinks, implement those first until the complex mechanics to limit reallocation are unnecessary.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/HabitRPG/habitrpg/issues/5082#issuecomment-102552013.

[reenenlaurie]

I haven't followed the discussion, but here are my thoughts:

1. I requested the change, because I went for the int rogue build, which now is broken.
2. The rogue doesn't feel particularly useful now. I feel I hardly contribute to the team, and although in the past I didn't contribute a lot, I was way ahead in levels, and contributed new quests.
3. Buying restat points with gold is not useful, because of the discrepancies of gold generation between classes.
4. The more stat points you have, the more options you have, so restats should be related to your level.

[wildcate]

Just FYI: I did re-allocate my attribute points after the change, using gems for the class change - as a subscriber with the one-year subscription, three gems are a very affordable thing for me. (Actually it feels like I'm swimming in gems, and giving a few to my party members who are not subscribed would be no problem at all.)

If class changes/re-allocation add to the revenue of the site, I'd say keep them that way. (You'll always have people complaining about "everything costs gems".) Levelling up allows to gradually change the stat points, and class change lets you re-allocate all of them, which does fit in with the idea of building a character.

I'd think that temporary things would be much better gold sinks - buying something that only lasts for a day or two, and is cosmetic instead of something affecting gameplay as fundamentally.

Sorry if that's a bit rambly - long day.

[Alys]

I'm closing this issue. I don't think anyone felt strongly enough about being able to change attribute points without spending gems to make it worth adding that feature, and there were some good reasons presented to not allow that.

This can be reopened if anyone thinks it's worth still considering this change.