Open mcliquid opened 7 months ago
Helium314
commented
7 months ago The quest should be fine.
Only thing I found is that maybe charging stations with access should also be excluded? After all, access=yes should already mean <modes of transportation>=yes.
mcliquid
commented
7 months ago Only thing I found is that maybe charging stations with access should also be excluded? After all, access=yes should already mean
=yes.
I understand it quite differently in the wiki. In the table on this page, it says in the row "access":
Who has access to the charging station, for example "yes" (public access), "customers", "private".
So far I have always added the "access" tag as general access: "access=yes" if public, "access=customers" if only customers or guests have access and "access=private" if only the owner has access.
ravenfeld
commented
5 months ago Are you talking about this view?
Is this still a need for you? I can take care of it if you don't have the time.
mcliquid
commented
5 months ago @ravenfeld Yes, exactly that view I thought about for this quest. It would be awesome if you could grab this one!! I am an absolute beginner in programming and it always takes me ages to complete a quest like this. I can help with pictures or icons if you like. By the way: thank you very much for an effort, I really appreciate it!
ravenfeld
commented
5 months ago For this quest, I don't know anything about it, so I'm interested in the images, yes, in 384*384 if possible, otherwise I'll do it. I'll pass you my figma which I use as a tool to make the images. I made a sheet for the charging_station
https://www.figma.com/design/FxOOoxGjLJXydAy4BtlDHC/SCEE?t=6rlzdMGz8qlyrY6w-1
mnalis
commented
5 months ago I understand it quite differently in the wiki. In the table on this page, it says in the row "access":
Uh, no, that would seem quite problematic. The wiki for a newer tag (like amenity=charging_station) may not redefine what some preceding (and especially more popular!) tag (like access=* or motorcar=*) means!
The problem was not in original proposal AFAICT, but someone tried to add helpful information how to tag when only specific vehicles can be charged, but that seems to created more confusion as they (almost) only used *=yes examples...
Who has access to the charging station, for example "yes" (public access), "customers", "private".
That part is fine: access=customers really means (in all uses) only customers (of any kind, i.e. regardless of vehicle type in case of charging stations) may legally access tagged feature. Its problem of course is that literall access=* key itself is vague (by design) -- it doesn't specify vehicle-type limitations. But when we talk about "access tags" we mean all the plethora of more specific tags too, and that was perhaps not too explicit without following that link.
So far I have always added the "access" tag as general access: "access=yes" if public, "access=customers" if only customers or guests have access and "access=private" if only the owner has access.
That is fine. Problem is that access=* is default access tag - i.e. the one to be used ONLY when more-specific access tag (like motorcar=*, hgv=*, bicycle=* etc) is missing on that element. When more specific access tag is however defined, it overrides access=* (i.e. acts like access=* was never specified).
So, for example, amenity=charging_station + access=customers + motorcar=yes combination means that any passenger car may use that charging station, regardless if they are customer or not, while every other vehicle (like bicycle, hgv, bus, moped, etc.) may only use that charging station if they are customers.
If one wished to mark charging station which is available only for passenger cars of the customers, that instead should be tagged as amenity=charging_station + access=no + motorcar=customers.
I've tried to do some cleanups / clarifications / examples on that wiki now.
mnalis
commented
5 months ago Only thing I found is that maybe charging stations with access should also be excluded? After all, access=yes should already mean
=yes.
I agree, but access=yes is hardly ever really true on amenity=charging_station, so is probably mapper mistake / overgeneralization (e.g. they probably meant "it is not not private or customer-only but allowed for all public" instead of _"every electric kickscooter, bicycle, moped, motorcycle, car, bus, hgv, tractor, snowmobile, wheelchair, golf cart, quad, 60-ton b-double etc. may charge here" -- few parkings with charging stations are designed in such a way that it would be economical even if physically possible: usually one b-double could easily block space for 5-6 regular cars)
Also, to be clear, all access tags are about what is legal to do. So while someone's automobile may be allowed to charge at some amenity=charging_station tagged with motorcar=yes, it does not mean they will actually be able to so (most common reasons being it lacks the compatible socket , or owner not being able to accommodate any of required payment systems)
Having said that, I see two most easy ways to handle the situation with literal general access=* tag:
access=*!) - there are lots of them, so perhaps use taginfo to check only for those that are actually used on amenity=charging_stations ?).
That is the safest and easiest, but reduces the number of quests. Someone should probably run the numbers if too many quests would be ignored...access=* when creating the quest). Then, after the quest is answered, choose one of the following:
access=* tag with access=no (or add it if missing). Do that if the quest is exhaustive, i.e. if mapper is required to tag all vehicle types that may be charged. That is best quality, bust most work for SCEE mapper, and the wrong answer is most dire if they missed any charging vehicle type.access=* tag (if present). Do that if the quest is only inclusive, i.e. if mapper is invited to only tag some (most visible) vehicle types that may be charged. Note that as soon as first time the quest is answered (even with just very incomplete data, i.e. just 1 vehicle type out of 10), it will not be shown to other SCEE users again so they won't be able to improve it. One Workaround is to make resurvey interval for this quest type very small (several months?), which would solve the issue when mappers only tag their vehicle type, but would quickly become and remain annoying for charging stations which are exhaustively/fully mapped. mnalis
commented
5 months ago Also, the quest currently seem to suggest tagging allowed vehicle types with =yes.
While that is generally true, some charging stations (e.g. at a restaurant parking lots) may only be used by customers, in which case =yes is hugely incorrect, and should be tagged =customers instead (otherwise many users looking for a charging stations would be annoyed if they found they have to additionally buy the dinner, even if they're not hungry, or even more so if dinner requires reservation first). And they are others, like =private etc.
But perhaps that is best solved by quest explanation message saying something alike "if charging is restricted on some criteria too (like e.g. customers-only), please leave a note with more details instead of answering this quest". Hopefully there are not so many of them that it becomes a problem (as technical solutions all somewhat complex).
mcliquid
commented
5 months ago So, for example,
amenity=charging_station+access=customers+motorcar=yescombination means that any passenger car may use that charging station, regardless if they are customer or not, while every other vehicle (likebicycle,hgv,bus,moped, etc.) may only use that charging station if they are customers.If one wished to mark charging station which is available only for passenger cars of the customers, that instead should be tagged as
amenity=charging_station+access=no+motorcar=customers.I've tried to do some cleanups / clarifications / examples on that wiki now.
Thank you for your effort! But you'll have to do the same for many other wiki pages, do you know that?
What about amenity=toilets + access=customers + male=yes + female=yes + wheelchair=designated?
-> Would you tag this one as male=customers + female=customers + wheelchair=customers?
Otherwise, do you think that this means that only customers who do not have a binary gender are allowed to use the toilet, men and women are always allowed to use the toilet and wheelchair users are designated, regardless of whether they shop there?
Or about amenity=bicycle_parking + access=private + cargo_bike=designated ?
-> Would you tag this one as cargo_bike=private ?
Otherwise, do you think this means that only owners are allowed to park their bikes here, but other people with cargo bikes have priority?
Or entrance=main + access=permit + wheelchair=designated ?
--> wheelchair=permit?
Otherwise, do you think that this means that only people with a permit are allowed to enter, but wheelchair users have a special permit?
Or amenity=parking + access=yes + motorcar=no + hgv=designated ?
Are you really sure about your explanations? You have brought formulations to the wiki page that have never been there before. Shouldn't this have been discussed with the community beforehand or where are you drawing your conclusions from?
I agree, but
access=yesis hardly ever really true onamenity=charging_station, so is probably mapper mistake / overgeneralization (e.g. they probably meant "it is not not private or customer-only but allowed for all public" instead of _"every electric kickscooter, bicycle, moped, motorcycle, car, bus, hgv, tractor, snowmobile, wheelchair, golf cart, quad, 60-ton b-double etc. may charge here" -- few parkings with charging stations are designed in such a way that it would be economical even if physically possible: usually one b-double could easily block space for 5-6 regular cars)Also, to be clear, all access tags are about what is legal to do. So while someone's automobile may be allowed to charge at some
amenity=charging_stationtagged with motorcar=yes, it does not mean they will actually be able to so (most common reasons being it lacks the compatible socket , or owner not being able to accommodate any of required payment systems)
Wait, what's this about the ParkingAccess Quest in StreetComplete? Why do we add an access=yes to every single public car parking, even if it's a paid one where only paid "customers" are allowed? Or the PlaygroundAccess or BicycleAccess Quest?
mnalis
commented
4 months ago What about amenity=toilets + access=customers + male=yes + female=yes + wheelchair=designated?
male and female are not access tags (not on Key:access wiki), and wheelchair is also predominantly having other purpose (because it is rare that access to some location is legally allowed for able-bodied people, but illegal for disabled people) - it is mostly about (physical) usability of the place for wheelchair users
Or about amenity=bicycle_parking + access=private + cargo_bike=designated ? Would you tag this one as cargo_bike=private ?
If the intention was that only few people (i.e. only the ones who the owner has personally approved) may park their cargo bikes there, but no other type of bikes or anything other is allowed; then yes, I'd tag it as access=no + cargo_bike=private.
Or amenity=parking + access=yes + motorcar=no + hgv=designated ?
That would mean that anybody may park there except motorcars (e.g. buses, HGVs, tractors, etc. are fine), and HGVs even have some specifically designated spots for them.
Are you really sure about your explanations?
Well, I was :sweat_smile: until now, when it seems you heavily disagree (unless I'm misinterpreting missing body language). It would be helpful if you were explicit with what do those tag combinations mean to you?
I seem to get the impression that you do not agree that more specific access-tag always overrides more-generic access-tag (e.g. bicycle=* overrides vehicle=*, and moped=* overrides motor_vehicle=*, and bus=* overrides access=* etc) , but that is just my best guess at the moment :man_shrugging:
Can you clarify which parts you seem to disagree with?
You have brought formulations to the wiki page that have never been there before
I didn't have impression that I did! I only intended to make it more clear.
For example, even before my edits the wiki stated in (Vehicles section) such examples as "bus=yes – electric buses can be charged. If the facility is only for buses, use access=no + bus=designated" which (to me) makes it clear how specific access keys like bus=* override general access=* (otherwise, such combination of tags would be contradictory -- i.e. "there are designated bus places there, but nobody, not even busses, may use them" doesn't seem like useful interpretation of that tag combination to me)
It was also linking _"Main article: Key:access § Land-based transportation" which makes it even more clear IMHO (e.g. "To avoid ambiguity, you may therefore want to avoid general tags access=yes and access=permissive, and use more specific transport modes where appropriate. For example, to distinguish a footway with open access from one with private access, use tags like foot=yes instead of access=yes. This does not mean that access=yes should always be avoided; for instance to denote that a amenity=parking that is opened for all vehicle types is a public parking instead of a private parking, using access=yes is fine."_)
Wait, what's this about the ParkingAccess Quest in StreetComplete? Why do we add an access=yes to every single public car parking, even if it's a paid one where only paid "customers" are allowed?
Um, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? access=yes on amenity=parking means that any member of general public may park there. Whether they have to pay is indicated by fee=yes/no, but that is orthogonal to access tag, for which important part is whether they have legal right to park there.
access=customer tag has different meaning. For example, if that parking lot belongs to a restaurant, they may restrict that this particular parking may be used "for customers only", i.e. for people who are going to have a dinner there. It may also be fee=no, but it could also be fee=yes (meaning that person parking with a car is going to have to pay more than a person that arrived via taxi for a same dinner). IOW, if it is access=customers, and you're not a customer (i.e. not dining there), you are not allowed to park there, even if you'd be fine with paying for parking.
Same for PlaygroundAccess (or BicycleAccess) - if playground is owned by e.g. kindergarten, access=yes would mean it may be used by any (even completely unrelated to kindergarten) member of the public; while more restrictive access would mean only that only some people are allowed to use it.
Anyway I'm quite open to having discussion about that on wiki talk / community forum (and undoing those wiki edits / or clarifying them / or noting ambiguities about usage / etc. depending on consensus) if you think there is a need, but I'd like to grasp what is the actual issue, so I can try to present both (or multiple) points of view for such discussion. As noted, I was under impression that those (to me simple clarifications) would be uncontested.
mcliquid
commented
4 months ago I think we are drifting too far away from the actual topic, so let me thank you for your detailed explanations and get back to the actual topic. I would like to use this quest to specify which vehicles can be charged at this charging station, based on the description in the wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcharging_station#Vehicles It says, and I quote: "For providing the information which types of vehicles can be charged." It does not say who can charge there because it is legally possible, but simply which vehicles can be charged there. That's exactly what I want to achieve.
This ticket was created in the SCEE-, not in the SC- context. I don't think we need to make it too complicated, the quest is deactivated from the beginning, whoever activates the quest will know what they are doing. In the end the quest is not much different from the possibilities in JOSM:
In addition, I understand all information in the same context: Specify which type of vehicle can be charged here. Starting from the proposal at the time to numerous questions / discussions in the forum:
Is it a charging station for bicycles? --> bicycle=yes
Is it one for cars? --> motorcar=yes
Is it something else? --> Uh, can't answer --> Note
The whole thing via multi-selection with icons. Let's add !access so that we exclude everything uncertain.
mnalis
commented
4 months ago The whole thing via multi-selection with icons. Let's add
!accessso that we exclude everything uncertain.
Agreed, seems like safe and uncontroversial choice to me!
mcliquid
commented
4 months ago so I'm interested in the images, yes, in 384*384 if possible, otherwise I'll do it.
@ravenfeld I've packed all the icons in a zip. Are SVGs fine? charging_station_access.zip
License:
bicycle_charging.svg - modified from bicycle.svg and electric_car.svg
bus_charging.svg - CC Attribution License - pixelbazaar
car_charging.svg - modified from electric_car.svg
hgv_charging.svg - CC0 License - SVG Repo
moped_charging.svg - MIT License - Twitter
motorcycle_charging.svg - MIT License - Twitter
small_electric_vehicle_charging.svg - CC Attribution License - streetmix
General
Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: motorcar, motorcycle, bicycle, hgv, ... Question asked: Which vehicle(s) can be charged here?
Checklist
Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):
Some stats:
amenity=charging_stationworldwide.motorcar=*bicycle=*.Ideas for implementation
Element selection: Overpass Query nwr["amenity"="charging_station"][!"motorcar"][!"motorcycle"][!"bicycle"][!"moped"][!"hgv"][!"bus"][!"small_electric_vehicle"]
Proposed UI: I would want to reuse the UI from the quest for the guidepost categorisation here, as there is already a multi-selection of icons available. The icons for the different vehicles should not be a big problem.
Would the quest be interesting for SCEE?