Anti stuns re-work (and mostly a removal)

[GuyonBroadway]

Only two true anti-stun chems exist now, meth and bath salts and they now come with significant downsides.

Rather than remove all these chems I changed them, except for lingdrenals. those can fuck off. Lings can make anti-stun chems too and have a purge chems button for when they start to hurt you.

All anti-stun chems have either had their anti-stun effects removed or given considerable downsides.

:cl: Guyonbroadway del: Changeling adrenals are fukken gone. del: Adrenal implants are also removed... add: However adrenal implants have been replaced with the Combat Stimulant Implant, instantly heals an amount of most types of damage in addition to curing blindness and deafness as well as giving you a potent cocktail of healing drugs. tweak: Nicotine no longer reduces stuns tweak: Meth no longer makes you run fast and metabolises faster, it also steadily causes a build-up of histamine in your system. If you get stunned it causes a spike of histamine and some extra tox damage. tweak: Ephedrine no longer reduces stuns and will make you hungry while draining nutriment and vitamin from your system. add: If you have Meth and Ephedrine in your system they will react violently and you will catch fire that gets more intense the longer it goes on. tweak: Unholy water no longer reduces stuns, but it's healing has been boosted a bit and will also heal clone, brain and bloodloss damage. tweak: Bath salts will now fuck you up much more and cause you to drop items as long as it's in your system. tweak: I bet you powergamers were thinking you could just take some Diphenhydramine and it's be business as usual. Ha, no! I thought of that and the results will be bad for you. For memers it will be wonderful. /:cl:

[GuyonBroadway]

It still provides stamina regen, later on I want to make each brand of cigarette have their own children of nicotine with minor benefits. but that's for another PR I feel.... he said after completely replacing adrenal implants.

[McHatters]

Good PR, lots better than some of the attempts we have made at addressing the stuns issue.

[GuyonBroadway]

fixing typos, typos are my calling card.

[ghost]

I'll have a look at the changes tomorrow lmao

[tortellinitony]

I like these changes, and I think that they are much better than just removing the chemicals outright.

[GuyonBroadway]

I want to make a combat capable replacement replacement for lingdrenals and I have some ideas, but I will do those later.

[trifornt-tinfornt]

Okay. Antistuns are still a terrible idea. I like the fact that you've replaced the adrenals implant with a healing implant though, as well as making ephedrine give you negative effects for constantly trying to run fast.

But meth? Nah. Sorry man but small histamine injections for instantly getting up and being able to bring the fight back again, as well as with current riot shields and etc. is a terrible idea. You have chems that can flush Histamine out of the system, so they'll just apply those patches for when they do get stunned and guarantee an instawin. Even then, Histamine is weak drug that requires overdosing to do anything efficient - and 10 units per stun seems to not fit that threshold. Meth is far too easy to spam and churn out and this will just make them churn out anti-histamine alongside it - just like how they churn out mannitol to counter the brain damage. Bad nerf of a bad idea. Stop. Kierany tried to nerf meth and other chems and failed. Please stop trying to nerf a system that breaks the entire, already flawed combat system of a game and instead decide "hey maybe we should remove this because it's boring and stupid". We did this last rebase and it was for the better. Make meth some kind of space drugs clone that fucks you up.

Bath Salts basically being a meme "I can't stun you but you can't stun me watch me prance around like an idiot" sounds like it could still be exploited by powergamers, but otherwise it's meh. Last I remember it turned you into a prancing idiot who could hardly walk straight anyhow, you pretty much just ran in circles.

Would still rather have them be stronger versions of space drugs. Meth does not make you a god, it makes you just hyperactive and has horrible side effects in the long run.

[trifornt-tinfornt]

bitch bitch whine whine cry cry muh balunce

[McHatters]

Trifornt does sound like he's got a point regarding histamine. I forgot that we got a chem (Diphenhydramine) that deals specifically with histamine overdose, and a chemist can easily whip it up to make Meth a drawback-free anti-stun again.

[trifornt-tinfornt]

Actually no matter what unless you use some OP chem it'll be easily negated by other chems that powergamers and "robust"-cripples/autists can whip up in seconds. It's a bad idea to make meth the exact same except it hurts you when you get stunned or if you have it in your system for extended periods of time. It's a bad idea to fix a bad idea that was so bad it got removed.

[trifornt-tinfornt]

Hate to break it to you but we've seen Ephedrine and other antistun chems before without movement buffs still be horrendously overpowered in the past. Nothing anyone tried to fix this worked, there were either easy fixes to it or it actually ended up BUFFING them in the long run. The sheer fact that you can get up faster after being stunned (which is 90% of the combat system) is more than enough to completely bust something, as now you have time to run away and return fire with whatever weapon you have to stun THEM. If they don't have antistuns, they're dead, GG. When you have an item that makes the entire game about you, and if they don't have X then they're as good as fucked, then you've balanced something terribly wrong. This is why the Reactive Teleport Armor, Riot Shields, and stuns themselves are bad (although disarm intent is a godsend for stuns) and not just these things. But these are perhaps the worst of the offenders.

It's not a dank meme, Nebyab. It's from personal experience with the darned things and watching everyone try and change them to no avail. They were either nerfed to the point of utter uselessness or were horribly overpowered. There is absolutely no grey area with an item like this. Just remove them.

[trifornt-tinfornt]

Neb said "X is a bad meme" when he saw an argument he didn't like. I saw him do it like 3-5 times, unless that was Nokington.

[trifornt-tinfornt]

I agree. Outright removing content is bad. That's why I say change them to space drugs except with the potential to be an actual killchem or something like cryptobiolin. However seeing that nobody here can quite see that trying to balance these things is impossible yet they keep trying (and failing I might add), it's best to just get them removed, then have them re-added when someone can make them a wacky chem instead of one that dictates the entire flow of the game's combat system. i must edit all me posts

[trifornt-tinfornt]

Awesome, now you can't abuse it with diphenhydramine. What does histamine do again? Has a chance to make you take brute damage? Well how about I just use this lovely chem that heals up that brute damage really fast and is easy to make, like Styptic Powder! Sucks for you!

at the end of the day having literally any chem in your system besides meth and killchems is going to force you to vomit them out

[MethMedic]

The histamine will do nothing. Powergamers will just add antihistamine to their patches. Bam, look I found a loophole. Meth should be removed, but since you don't wanna do that we gotta compromise. Meth should fuck you up BAD but make it so you get away alive. Alive but fucked up bad. You shouldn't be able to fight while on it, only escape. And using it should be so debilitating that it should be used only in a life or death situation.

[GuyonBroadway]

@MethMedic The only antihistamine in the game has been accounted for. It will make using meth safer but combat impossible.

[trifornt-tinfornt]

Doesn't matter, Histamine is easily counterable without the anti-histamine drug. All it does is give you brute damage. Slap on a brute patch, bam. You're fine. You can still use meth to powergame. As I said, bad idea for a bad idea that was so bad it got removed.

[KayeArray]

Do you overdose on the histamine or what? Histamine OD is super lethal but otherwise it's just annoying eye damage and brute.

Just merge Arc-Luminol and have it give them that instead, they'll never touch meth again.

[KittyKathy]

This is overall good but may need some tweaking in future PRs though as I can see stuff that may be abused. You may want to look into re adding Meth explosion so it's harder to make meth without blowing yourself up as it was removed for a unknown reason in #7. I still think anything that removes stuns should have that ability to remove stuns removed but lets see if this would deter people from using it all the time. You did not really change anything with Crank though is this intended? You also left in Stimpacks for 5 tc which gives 50 units of stimulants which is unaffected by this PR.

[GuyonBroadway]

My reasoning for using histamine is over time the build-up goes from minor annoyance to actual danger if you his the OD threshold which comes about faster if you get stunned. There are other things I could do with this, like teeny tiny amounts of heparin so after a while you are bleeding uncontrollably and need a transplant.

Also stimpacks are now 50u of healing nanites. Which is actually insane, you could survive in a vacuum or some fires with that shit.

[GuyonBroadway]

I'm calling this a last chance saloon solution, if this does not work then I will concede the point that it is untenable and just make meth a drug you can use to trip balls.

And make bath salts the only anti-stuns and that would fukken kill you.

[GuyonBroadway]

I fucked up my repo and had to do a thing, Closing PR and re-opening here. https://github.com/HippieStation/HippieStation13/pull/475