Unfair LSPD Streaming Rules

[migs22ap]

Describe the current reason for this balance request Currently, the LSPD has this policy:

Out of Character stream clips cannot be pulled from streams to make complaints directly. The complaint must originate in character from someone as normal, at which point the SASP will pull any relevant footage from the Officers stream. The fair balance to this is the continued allowance that Officers can go back in their footage to pull information when necessary.

This means that if an officer is streaming and someone reports them, their own stream can be used as evidence against them. High ranking members of the LSPD will review the officer's stream and deal out punishment as they see fit. This is literally metagaming. People who stream Highlife face an inherent disadvantage. Josh Button was removed from the LSPD because of footage taken off of his twitch stream against his will. We as a police department have no authority to go into someone's twitch stream. Twitch streams are out of character and shouldn't be used for in character issues or reports.

If Button wasn't streaming his game, he would still be working with the LSPD right now. The sole reason he is removed is because he was streaming the server.

Describe the solution you'd like Simply remove this rule and stop referencing streams in any way shape or form for anything that is deemed in character. If someone DOES want to use footage in character, let them do a /me to turn on a bodycam or pull out a phone or do the filmshocking emote.

Additional context Seeing as command isn't willing to change their ruling, I am transitioning this from an LSPD issue to a staff issue.

[migs22ap]

I don't know if this fits more as a balance request or as a community comments post. I'm putting it here as I know this is a public post that everyone can see.

[ModzyUK]

People who Stream Highlife face an inherent disadvantage.

First off, let me start by saying, this is the biggest load of bollocks I have ever read in my entire life, I have been in Highlife for almost 9/10 Months now, Maybe more, and in my time streaming here, not once, and I literally mean NEVER have I been in a situation where my stream has been used against me. The last 2 weeks I have streamed over 75+ Hours as PD and again not ONCE have I been pulled into a Meeting room about any of my actions on stream. This is not because I am a Robocop or a goody two shoes, but because I know when I can relax and/or mess around when it is appropriate and the right people are around.

Josh Button was removed from the LSPD because of footage taken off of his stream against his will.

Josh was removed from PD as you well know for breaking not one but multiple standard operating procedures while clocked in as an Officer, fair enough if he was doing it on his ones in an alleyway somewhere, but my guy was smoking meth, on duty, at LEGION of all places, and someone made a formal complaint. Which was dealt with by taking the necessary bodycam footage. I think the Issue you are actually referencing here, is while looking for the part about where the complaint was made, the person investigating came across more, questionable acts performed by Button, and then these other acts were also used against him, rather then the original point. That I don't agree with myself, but hey, what's done is done and we should all move on.

This means that if an officer is streaming and someone reports them, their own stream can be used as evidence against them.

You also forget, that this same footage can also be used as evidence against somebody that has commited crimes while the officer is streaming, if streaming is to become fully out of character, then how the (excuse my language) fuck do you expect people like myself who stream to build cases, and back up any accusations I may face from criminals on a daily basis while dealing with lawyers, to be able to provide evidence to prove myself innocent? It makes no sense whatsoever, the rule does not need altering so long as you are not being stupid, it really is that simple.

[migs22ap]

The bottom line is that we have 0 authority as LSPD to use people's streams against their wishes.

[sbdonslaught]

but hey, what's done is done and we should all move on.

What...?

If someone has been treated unfairly, we shouldn't just "Forget about it and move on". I think both of you bring up some valid points that should definitely be addressed and discussed.

[ghost]

I believe as a pd member that someone’s stream that is completely ooc should not be used for a formal complaint which is supposed to in character, I as a trooper reported a pd member with footage from a stream and was completely denied but here it was used, very confusing. You brought up a point of pd using it as if it was an actual body cam and I think this is just non sense because most pd don’t record and we all know sometimes people mess up or do dumb stuff, I don’t think people’s streams should be used against them.

[daaaaaaz]

I’m against pulling from streams all together (personal opinion but also as per the rules too). There’s what, 100+ people in the department and only a handful stream regularly whereas nearly everyone records gameplay except they don’t make it public, they just claim they have a 'bodycam'. That's where it is unfair, you can't have a procedure in place that only affects 1 in 20 people.

I understand if they are genuinely doing fucked up shit on stream then they should be spoken to about the matter as we do have to protect the integrity of the department but no disciplinary action should be taken unless a formal in character complaint, with evidence to back the claims (not metagamed from an OOC stream), comes in.

You are not allowed to use the information gained from watching a stream for your in-game character. This is considered metagaming and will result in a ban if caught. We, the PD, should not being doing this at all.

[Choppa25]

Personally, I feel like using a stream (OOC) to make a PD complaint (IC) is pure metagaming. Catch the officer in the act if you want to make a complaint against him ICly, record him using your own bodycam/phone.. doing something that’s fun for you and the viewers and promoting HighLife might end up being the evidence against you, used in a metagaming way.

[Psyanine]

My personal opinion.

Was button spoken to first and given a heads up to avoid that kind of behaviour? Because that should've been the first line not instant removal etc. Whilst I agree that stream info shouldn't be taken, there is a line of sorts that needs to be drawn with the quality of rp that is expected of a whitelisted role. Roleplaying with negative character traits such as addiction can be a very compelling storyline, doing meth at legion as a clocked in cop is just shit roleplay end of. I do believe it can make the pd look bad esp if its a new players interaction, but I don't think he should've been removed on first offense. The actual problem at hand is PD need to work out the correct balance of quality expectations for roleplay. There are far too many instances whereby PD are quick to flex their "authoritahh" against their own when they don't follow SOPS. This is ROLEPLAY. Meaning if you fixate absolutely everything in terms of their operation there is no room for experimentation or bad cop rp. How many movies / games / cartoons etc have you seen that portray a cop that has either fallen from grace or bends the rules to get where he needs? It's a very common trope, one of which is hardly plausible within highlife because of SOPs and PDs mentality to obey without question.

Watching cop streams and clipping shit so you can be a goody two shoes has been happening since I was content creator, I know all of the guilty parties doing it so don't think it goes unnoticed. This creates a very shit team morale within PD it at times can be very toxic. If the RP is especially dumb then approach that person directly in DMs and discuss it, don't instantly be calling for a strike because your E-boner is throbbing with the thought of looking good in the higher ups eyes, be your own person. If there is something on the job that they did (like accidently doing something in character) then give them an in char strike, if it's a rule break then it needs to be ooc. I think the system is now like this correct me if I'm wrong). I've mentioned this should be the case since about 10 months ago.

The actual problem at hand is when you put people of poor social standing/social intelligence in positions of power. Within a community such as the one we enjoy here at Highlife, it is important to understand the realistic position you are in. This is not some life or death PD in the streets of some ghetto somewhere, it's an online video game roleplay experience that entices the players with dipping their toes into a fresh immersive (at times) story. People play highlife and gta rp as a whole to have fun and enjoy themselves, cracking the whip excessively is not fun or encouraging roleplay it only exacerbates team morale. I feel the standards of practice of PD need to inherently have both IC and OOC standards. But remember the more you restrict freedom to bend the rules (within good roleplay as the prime motivator), the more you are just restricting the roleplay. A prime example is corruption, why don't we allow higher rank officers to take a bribe, hell implement it as a feature so it just deletes the money after it's passed so it's not abused for financial gain. I had to specify whether or not I could even roleplay a fat cop that will be bad at on foot chases because I was worried I'd have some salty cop clipping it and sending it.

Focus on the roleplay and not the SOPs. 3 Button

[BrellXD]

Here is my opinion on the subject. If you go out of your way and look through a 24 hour stream to find something wrong that he did, that's sad as fuck. Pulling clips from his twitch stream is literally pure meta gaming and shit rp.

[DsyncXO]

Honestly took me while to actually think about what i should even consider to drop into here without making things look terrible on all ends of the conception, as someone who is a member of the community and have been around non stop for the past 1000 hours and have never fount a love for a server in the way that it has become, and with this entire controversy of body cam as "evidence" has well and truly ruined my entire RP and i now find it hard to even stream anything and or make any content at all and criminal life is just no fun these days, its either standing at tables or robbing banks and being boring, my entire character of a member of the LSPD has been someone who has that attitude which people may not like and it has been something that i have been apart of for 6+ months within the department and legit have never been so stressed or pissed over the simple fact that my 25 hour live stream was purely meta-gamed and not one single bit of RP was demonstrated from the behalf of the police department and there never has been, 80% of the police department has this brain dead "win mentality" and have forgotten this is a video game and do not understand how to have fun, Join the city and just clock in its boring and i couldn't tell you anyone outside even in or out of the department actually enjoys it and has resulted in people leaving for simple and pathetic reasoning's, every person within the department wants to grab a nice M4 and shoot criminals for doing something which does not warrant an on-sight kill, its literally just bad RP and its disgusting to see from such a great community, everyone is afraid to do anything out of line within PD and have seen far worse stuff than me talking shit on shift, the situation which brought this entire fiasco to such debate is pathetic, the individual who put in the original complaint did not even ask me for a badge number and just thought it was okay to click on my stream then drop this info off, where is the RP and better yet, how does somebody within "real life" as this is RP have access to the police body cams? also the fact someone believes it is okay to watch through 25 hours of straight footage is literally pathetic and sad beyond belief, and the end of the day all the clips which were pulled from my 25 hour stream, yeah i should have been removed but the pure fact that i was meta gamed and not one bit of RP was involved i have literally lost the will to hang about now a days as my "content" has been completely been blown straight out of the water, which last time i checked was a bannable offence and should not have been removed and or violated in such manner, if i was not streaming i would still be in the Police department, why is it PD are allowed to break the rules of High life, meta-gaming its literally the main rules within the basic guide to the server, "why have i never been pulled up for something on stream" i dont wanna sit here and point fingers but no one in PD Rps with any situation other than the select few and its literally a joke, Power hungry people who will abuse their powers the way thanos would snap his finger and it literally ruins RP, i witnessed a civillian get charged with 9x Bank robbery because he said that to an officer, which has 0 evidence to back the claims and the man was issued with 200k+ in fines, that guy has probably left the server and thought fuck this what a joke, PD is ran professionally and dont hold it against them but its literally a video game and everyone acting like Robocunt

[Psyanine]

I personally only know about the meth at legion with which was dumb lets be honest but doesn't warrant anymore than an ooc talking to, even that is only because let's be honest it's just a little bit too goofy / unrealistic for a cop on duty. Following on from what modzy said, there is a difference between slyly having a drink / drug hit on the job as an addict to straight up social roleplay smashing meth with the lads at legion. I think there needs to be a balancing / clear indicator of strike system both ic and ooc. Streams should only ever be used if it's a VERY clear staff situation. If there is a specific PD IC issue it should be sorted out in character, in city. If it's just a question about chatting to someone about dubious RP it can be a casual discussion ooc between the officer and PD higher-ups.

Therefore: -IC Complaint - Dealt with in character with court / PD higher ups. In character strikes. I.e if they get 3 they themselves ooc aren't removed from PD but the character can be. Perhaps in order to lower the salt / toxic nature of striking this should be changed to a suspension for X time to allow for the rules to be bent without threat of totally losing the job (within reason). If someone loses their job IC though they must at the very least be using a new name and significantly different looks to be reinstated and at same rank.

-OOC Complaint (abuse of position/function, rule breaks) - Staff issue. Bans w/ OOC strikes

-RP quality complaint - PD higher ups casual convo out of character (do not abuse this to restrict freedom of rp character or at least to a semi realistic / theatrical realistic level). Only OOC strikeable after repeated offences of similar action. Example of non strikeable offense - PD streamer roleplays being an addict, slips off while on duty to snort some cocaine in his car in a quiet alley. Example of a strikeable offense (likely after repeat offenses depending on extent) - Racks up 5 lines of Murphy Brand™ Coke on the behinds of 5 different VU girls at legion and snorts all the lines.

[Psyanine]

Another thing, bring in forced char swaps so people have to put in a bit of effort when they bend the rules a little. I.e going light on someone because they are in their gang IC.

[YaBoiAthensguy]

A prime example is corruption, why don't we allow higher rank officers to take a bribe

There's literally 0 rules that prevent you from doing so, as long as you don't get caught by a different officer. You say that you can't be corrupt in PD without getting metagamed, yet me and Hint did Corrupt RP for around 2 months before getting removed. There's no HL Rules that prevent you from being Corrupt, it's a matter of are you gonna get caught? It's one thing bringing people to a very discreet location and torturing them to give out information (something that I have personally done and not be caught) and another thing to smoke Crystal Meth in the middle of Legion which is fucking Times Square IRL.

IC Complaint - Dealt with in character with court / PD higher ups. In character strikes. I.e if they get 3 they themselves ooc aren't removed from PD but the character can be.

Then what's the point in Strikes being there if the person can literally commit any dumb shit that he wants to have his "character" removed from PD. It's like killing 5 cops and then getting morgued to avoid the fine since you only lose a name. Makes absolutely 0 sense to me as to why that would be a thing. Fair enough, suspension is feasible, but if you get striked 3 times then you're obviously shit at your fucking job and you should get sacked because you're both incompetent and fail to abide by simple SOP's. You shouldn't just allow people to stay in PD but with a "different character", that just kills the whole point of a whitelist job, might as well have a Danny be in PD and let him loose since he's never gonna get removed for doing dumb shit.

Those are my 2 cents since I've been both on the receiving end of the spectrum and on the giving end.

[Psyanine]

Yet receiving strikes that get you as a person removed from PD (at least how it used to be) enforced people sticking to SOPs.

You are mixing IC complaints with RP / staff complaints. Also another supporting reason why PD character needs to actually be a character swap.

IC complaint is like forgetting to read rights before searching / arresting. Accidently damaging an innocent persons vehicle. Wrongful arrest (with in char reasons for arrest, not just to troll). etc.

[Choppa25]

Also another supporting reason why PD character needs to actually be a character swap.

I also think that the police character should be a character that is not being used for anything illegal while off-duty. That maybe if you are on that character and see an officer getting robbed next to you by one person, to be able to pull out your weapon and stop him because you are an officer as well, but off-duty, without being called a vigilante . It’s just basic RP to me, doesn’t seem right that as soon as you clock off you can drift off from MPRD through 3 red lights, buy a pistol and rob a bank, all in 10 mins with the same character you’ve just arrested people with, same name, same face, SAME character.

I mean, I understood this before when you were able to change characters only on whitelist server. But now.. now it doesnt make sense.

[Jarrrk]

After reading mixed opinions, mainly from people that don't stream I'm inclined to give an opinion.

I'm inclined to agree with the following:

If you go out of your way and look through a 24 hour stream to find something wrong, that's x y

But as I'm sure everyone is aware, this is the internet, people are going to do that, then again, that should be irrelevant considering the underlying pretense to even being able to use footage 'against' someone requires a complaint to originate from someone involved in the said situation.

To keep this relatively short, if you stream, you should expect to be scrutinized for your actions, especially in a whitelist role, even more so as PD. I'm sure other departments would take action if someone came to them with a clip of someone's wrong-doing, it's actually a benefit that PD have this pretense of the originator needing to be involved in the situation to hail any action.

If Button wasn't streaming his game, he would still be working with the LSPD right now.

Then he, and any other aspiring streamers for that matter, should take this is an example and understand that this could always be a possibility because of streaming. Not to mention the fact that no doubt he'll be able to re-apply for PD sometime soon most likely, nothing is taken personal, this is a game, it's meant to be fun and I understand we still need to convey that but also on the side that PD want to keep a professional profile to non-PD members as this could potentially degrade the reputation of the department, and I speak for everyone when I say, we do not want that, people that have been round long enough to remember how bad people thought of PD and how different that perspective is now is great to see.

I'm closing this issue at this time as I don't want the priorities of feedback to turn into politics of what's right and wrong in a specific department, I believe PD has a good approach to dealing with stream related issues.

To quote @ModzyUK on something I cannot agree more on:

This is not because I am a Robocop or a goody two shoes, but because I know when I can relax and/or mess around when it is appropriate and the right people are around.