Crim is being nerfed to sh*t. (Fines need to be rebalanced IMO)

[ProphetTheArabian]

I'm going to attempt opening a subject that's definitely worth looking at in HLRP, I would also genuinely love to see feedback from both sides of the coin (crim/cop) or if I'm the only one seeing this issue.

Describe the current reason for this balance request HLRP has always been a blast for me, most of my friends, and everyone else in the city. We all know we play this game (mainly) to have fun, and try to escape reality for a bit. As of now (20/03), I feel like criminal characters have been nerfed to sh*t with all the changes in PD for making fines more strict (especially impounding vehicles for $10,000-$15,000). I believe this can be really, really unfair to some people that don't have whitelisted jobs and want to create great roleplay scenarios to give cops something to do. However, this GREATLY impacts their bank account for merely creating a good RP scenario for cops and themselves, and for playing the game.

The way I see this going, is that cops always, no matter the circumstances, HAVE to win, even if it's deploying AIR-1 for a guy on a faggio running with $3,000 in dirty cash for a store robbery, and potentially losing $15,000-$35,000 in fines (hope you can see the risk for reward here). This obviously demotivates people to give cops things to do, crime to pursue, and most importantly the reason why we invest so much in this amazing project, roleplaying.

Describe the solution you'd like Honestly, reducing the fines here would be of great choice. You can potentially be fined for $68,400 right now, take robbing a bank for an example (including a gunfight, escape, etc): Impound ($15,000) + Revoking your weapons license ($2,500) + Attempted Murder x3 ($45,000) + Reckless Driving ($2,400) + FEA ($5,000) + Bank robbery ($12,000) + Revoking driver's license + Kidnapping

This amounts to $85,200 (without reductions), excluding the cute little 4000 days in jail.

Let's say you DID get a reduction, down to $68,400. $68,400 is over 16 hours worth of paychecks of an Officer 1 clocked in (or endless hours of fishing/grinding G6) That's way too much grind for one RP situation. I hope people can see the risk for reward here, this said bank robbery only pays off around $50,000 which is usually 2-4 way split.

I'd REALLY love to see EVERYONES take on this, or any criticism to the way I explained this issue, Like I previously stated, this is definitely an issue worth shining light on. Thank you for reading this <3.

[deacoN63]

I somewhat agree with this. Firstly, I have experienced this as a cop on my other character and as a crim on another. I'm going to be giving my crim side of the story. So I robbed a store with a hostage, I then went on a 10-15 minute chase with the police and so during that chase I bumped into an individual which was purely an accident and so I even went ahead and stopped to apologize and then continued the chase, after some time my car broke down so I got out and ran with a shotgun in hand and eventually had to shoot an officer (did not down him though) then got downed by the other officers. With that in mind I got charged with the following.

1. Attempted murder ($15,000) 2. Store Robbery ($8,000) 3. Possession Of Dirty Money ($4,000) 4. Reckless Driving ($2,400)
   5. Vehicular Battery ($2,500) 6. Unlawful Imprisonment ($2,000) 7. FEA ($5,000) + Impound of my car Issi ($15,000)

Total = $53,900 In Fines.

Now I'm not sure if this is just me but the high fee for the impound and the lack of leniency is very de-motivating. Even though I had positive roleplay going around the entire situation, I still got the crazy fines and the full impound fee by the officers due to the new changes being enforced by the PD. I honestly don't see myself continuing these fun RP scenarios (for both parties) any time soon due to the insane fines/impound fees even though everyone included in the situation had fun and commended my driving during the chase and RP through out the negotiations at the store. In the end of the day this is an RP server and everyone should have fun, however I see that it now comes with a hefty cost which is way more than it ever was before. Keep in mind that people with no WL jobs have it hard, it is not always fun for crims to be getting huge fines then having to pay it off by grinding G6, ron etc without any RP just to stay out of debt.

[JayJunior1]

The fines are already reduced as much as they can be to equalized to the economy, fines are the only way to combat the cash flood from illegal activities such as Meth Coke Robberies etc. I understand where you're coming from but at the same time people often use their personal vehicles when they commit robberies, which is kinda stupid sorry for my language, you should never use your personal vehicles to commit illegal activities, unless you want to and that is up to you, but at the same time there needs to be a risk. your point about people not having whitelisted jobs is kinda ironic, because when the inventory system gets in and the separation of bank accounts is in as well, this might fix the issue of losing cash over fines on both characters. The impound price was raised as people constantly use their own vehicles to commit illegal activities instead of stealing a local vehicle or rob another player for their car, and as I said before, it is up to you if you are willing to risk it, but you cant expect the risk to be lowered because of that. Now as the charges you both have listed, I mean you kinda got most of the charges on the charge list if I'm being honest, you shot a cop, robbed a store, kidnapped someone, smashed someone elses car in the chase, recklessly drove, you both committed a lot of crimes, its a two way street. Now as for the bank robbery payouts that is something being looked into as to figure out a way to increase the money gained from bank robberies as to make the risk equal the reward, we know they're not equal and in no way shape or form I'm saying they are, but its something we're eventually going to add a change to. Now this might hurt certain people who don't indulge that often in crim role play, they rely on their legal character for the cash, and spend it on their crim character, I'm not accusing anyone I'm just saying how it is, and I don't blame people for that as its the system we have currently, but as for other people who only do crim RP, sell meth, coke, do commercials and sell items to the pawn shop, those people make a shit ton of cash in ways you cant imagine, people are already driving high end cars from that, fines is the only thing that kinda balances the two, reducing that will only unbalance the cash flow people are getting and will eventually ruin the economy.

[RayMond-1]

I see two issues here personally. Firstly your x2 Att murder charge, that alone equates for over 50% of your total fine. Murder charges are set high to prevent every single cop situation ending in a shoot out. Most shootouts for crims are almost un winnable at times, so always think before lighting people up is it even worth the risk/cost?

Secondly, without knowing a single detail of your situation. I would say you had several charges stacked against you that shouldnt of been. Store Robbery and Pos of dirty money should never be applied together. Just like any robbery it would not make sense to stack both the robbery charge + the item stolen. Vehicle battery is a weird one without context I cannot confirm nor deny either. This is a issue I can raise at our next supervisor meeting to ensure charge stacking is not conducted.

Always call a lawyer when you are unsure or feel miss charged. The lawyers are trained to know these issues as they occur to them daily. It also makes officers ensure they are not over charging due to the inherant risk of repercussions from legal intervention to protect you.

In terms of balance to criminal activity, as jay said anyone who has a full time career as a crim has no issue with making money. I can however see why someone who only indulges every so often feels squeezed. We try to negate this issue by having higher fine costs related to crimes of moneatry gain, like drugs.

[ProphetTheArabian]

Good morning gentlemen, thank you for your feedback <3 You guys have made some really good points, but I'll be addressing a couple of points Raymond and Jay Junior have listed:

"You should never use personal vehicles to commit illegal activities"

Yes and no. We all know 95% of local cars aren't exactly fit to be used for illegal activity. It's much easier said than done to get what you want from a place, and flee from 2-3 cop cars at the same time. Crim characters are forced to cheese the situation and use CBRs, GT63s, etc. because that's their only Get Out of Jail card. The 10k-15k impound omits using personal vehicles, which just narrows the options down to stealing a local car and having a very slim chance of fleeing from police. Gradually, this is just stripping the freedom of choice and creativity in crim/cop RP scenarios (10-15k fine aside) for using a really sh*tty getaway car for the fun of it. As of right now, it'd be really dull to just repeatedly use local cars just so you don't get slapped with an extra fine. See where I'm coming from?

"Murder charges are set high to prevent every single cop situation ending in a shoot out."

Let's be real, how many shootouts out of 10 end up in the criminal being shot dead by multiple police officers? Yes, I understand sometimes the plan is executed perfectly and cops end up dying. Shouldn't cops devise different strategies/approaches to prevent themselves getting killed? Cops are already armed to the teeth with comms, etc.

" your x2 Att murder charge, that alone equates for over 50% of your total fine." "Murder charges are set high to prevent every single cop situation ending in a shoot out."

Exactly the issue I'm trying to address. Imagine this, a new player decides to get himself in trouble, break down his car, and decides to shoot up two cops as his last resort. Usually, they don't know their next best course of action. that's $30,000 ALONE in attempting to murder the two cops. Regardless of being a new player or not, you're essentially just taking away the option to shoot cops as a last resort because of the high fine. Cops already have high chances of winning the situation anyway, right?

To sum it up: Impounding a personal vehicle takes option and creativity out of the scenario, this just leaves low-mid tier crim characters to end up using local cars and opt out of their choice to use their Super GoKarts/Faggios/or a mid-tier car (like a sultan) for fun. Increasing the murder charge from 10k to 15k demotivates people to have a well RP'd situation end up in an all-out gunfight, which once again, strips the immersion of roleplay and creativity out of the equation.

With both of these factors combined, and the chief of police notifying cops to STOP being too lenient with fine reductions, on top of the new overboard impound prices. This completely DESTROYS low-mid tier/for-the-RP only criminal characters (like the Babu's), as stated by deacon63, it's demotivating.

This could be easily fixed for both sides of the story, I just believe it's imbalanced right now.

[RayMond-1]

The 10k-15k impound omits using personal vehicles, which just narrows the options down to stealing a local car and having a very slim chance of fleeing from police. Gradually, this is just stripping the freedom of choice and creativity in crim/cop RP scenarios (10-15k fine aside) for using a really sh*tty getaway car for the fun of it

Having a impound fee attached to personal vehicles does not stiffle RP. It is a concious decision, do I risk my own vehicle + extra fines, or not. PD vehicles are not supercars, alot of standard GTA cars can outrun them it just requires a good driver and knowledge of the map or pre planning to escape.

Let's be real, how many shootouts out of 10 end up in the criminal being shot dead by multiple police officers? Yes, I understand sometimes the plan is executed perfectly and cops end up dying.

This is exactly what I mean alot of people just let rip for the last hooraah. RP over gunplay should be a priority, if you cannot win what is the point in trying? There has to be a penalty reflection for this. Giving up peacefully is a sure fire way to win over the officers to think about reductions aswell.

Shouldn't cops devise different strategies/approaches to prevent themselves getting killed? Cops are already armed to the teeth with comms, etc.

Cops will only shoot if you pose a threat and/or ignore commands. You are in control of your destiny at this stage. Its rare for cops to escalate to lethal without you first pushing them to do it.

With both of these factors combined, and the chief of police notifying cops to STOP being too lenient with fine reductions, on top of the new overboard impound prices.

I understand this has potentially over inflated fine amounts due to the lack of leniency now given, I will monitor this over the coming weeks and make changes as/if necessary. As for new players, cops are trained to give more leancy to new citizens due to this factor but we cannot balance the economy around sole new players unfortunately.

[Jarrrk]

There's already a plethora of good points outlined by other players and staff in here.

My only addition is that I know a lot of successful criminals that still haven't been arrested this wipe, hats off to you guys as per.

Other tips: plan ahead, don't use your own car, don't commit to something you're not willing to face consequences for, talking is always better than gunplay, there's plenty of ways to give meaningful RP to cops, or anyone for that matter, that doesn't have to be hardcore crime, robberies or killing people, I really think people just need to open their mind a little bit, think about some of us that have been here for 3+ years now still finding new interesting ways to RP with people.

To re-iterate, for the love of god stop using supercars in robberies, that's just to everyone as a PSA really as it's so dumb.

[ImNorin]

Yes and no. We all know 95% of local cars aren't exactly fit to be used for illegal activity. It's much easier said than done to get what you want from a place, and flee from 2-3 cop cars at the same time.

Somewhat agree with you. If you know how to drive, its not that hard to escape cops through alleyways and such, even with a local car. And dont talk bad about the Sultan. Best local car there is 😉
The problem most local cars suffer is the amount of damage they can take and general handling. Not trying to talk shit about the vehicle team, they do a great job, but local cars tend to be snails made out of glass. The main issue these cars suffer is that they break down from nothing. Usually you would submit this in issue #397, but this affects most of them. Highlife is building their handling around realism, but for a game like GTA that's not gonna work out well. You hit more things on average here than you would irl, for reasons (FCollisionDamageMult 🙄). Handling is also weak when you put them up against imports and such. I should probably make this its own thread, but just wanted to highlight some of the issues these cars face and why people buy and use a BMW that goes faster and takes less damage. Make locals great again!

Crim characters are forced to cheese the situation and use CBRs, GT63s, etc. because that's their only Get Out of Jail card.

If you want to be a shit roleplayer, go for this option. I cant express how pissed I get when I see someone use a motorcycle to escape a robbery. You could just walk into the bank, grab the money and teleport away. Wouldnt make any difference. You are avoiding a roleplay situation just to make money. The current motorcycle meta sucks and crims wont get any compassion from me before they grow some balls and grab something with 4 wheels. We as cops love a good chase more than anything else. I cant talk for everyone, but I will do anything I can do keep a chase going for as long as possible until your car is dead from your own driving and mistakes. This means I barely pit, make tactical contacts or taze you.

The 10k-15k impound omits using personal vehicles, which just narrows the options down to stealing a local car and having a very slim chance of fleeing from police.

We have a guide that we follow, but are able to personalize this if we see fit just as any other fine. I am not going to impound a new player's car for 15k even though they shot a couple cops as this is going to demotivate them and keep them from playing as a criminal.

[Varnek]

My only addition is that I know a lot of successful criminals that still haven't been arrested this wipe, hats off to you guys as per.

they havent been arrested since the wipe because they were barely playing since the wipe

[Jarrrk]

My only addition is that I know a lot of successful criminals that still haven't been arrested this wipe, hats off to you guys as per.

they havent been arrested since the wipe because they were barely playing since the wipe

Glad you glanced over this entire thread to speak one line of pure baseless garbage.

[ProphetTheArabian]

Hey guys, I'm really sorry for the late reply, I have notifications turned on but stupid thing didn't notify me:

I know this thread is closed but it's hard not to get this out of my chest:

"The current motorcycle meta sucks and crims wont get any compassion from me before they grow some balls and grab something with 4 wheels."

As much as I really want people to stop doing that, they physically can't. Gangs/crims are forced to just use the easy way by using CBRs, easy to escape vehicles (not supercars) because we have no other choice. I've seen cops deploy 3 chargers, 2 moto units on a Mini-Cooper. It's super overpowering most of the time because at the press of a couple of buttons, you can't escape.

You guys have the right to complain and get mad when there's a CBR in the mix, and we have the right to complain when I see half of PD trying to catch me in an Issi.

Sorry if I sounded a little aggressive, but most chases are riddled with 500 chargers.

[ImNorin]

I'm a cop and I do agree. We are enforcing people to use less vehicles in a chase. This should be more noticeable as time goes on. Keep in mind that there's usually going to be more cars from LSPD per criminal vehicle, but there is a limit to what is considered overkill. As I said, we are actively trying to balance this out to make it fair for both parties.

Hopefully we can find mutual ground and share the fun a car chase provides.

[Heijneken]

Can't agree more with what ImNorin said. As police we obviously are greatly impacted with the new 300 players. This had led to our dispatches becoming bigger and bigger. It will take some time but we will try to get the department to where we want to go where it won't be considered "overpowered". As a department we have to combat issues like this on a weekly basis as new problems arise.

In a ideal world for me we would have certain amount of police per chase and certain amount of police per situation. I hate to see 15 cops going against 2-4 criminals i also see it as overkill and overpowered. But we just need time for everyone to get the bigger picture and listen to the things we are enforcing. but i am confident that in due time this will be realised.