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KSP-RO / RealismOverhaul

Multipatch to KSP to give things realistic stats and sizes
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Mod/CFG Addition Request: Aviation/SXT Cockpits + nesd's OpenCockpit & PSSI's Pulse/Ram Jets Balanced/Priced/Placed(?) (PR's open in RP0/RO)) #2496

Closed aazard closed 3 years ago

aazard commented 3 years ago

I have open PR's regarding the addition of parts, I can provide tested cfg's, but I am sure then need a proof read

Primer:

I have felt a "simple" cockpit for low (max 5km) slow (sub 300m/s) which is rare in game, but happens, like on some 1st launches, was missing.

I also found the lack of any historical pulsejets was odd, although more a low/slow engine type, they are an alternative to propellers, providing more "traditional" jet style craft designs, like if designing upgradable "Xplane chassis "

As above I found the lack of any historical ramjets was odd, although more a RARE engine type, they were used/tested in flight as early late WW2. FW-PABST, Wright, Marquardt and Nord made units that saw flight with recorded specifications, I have tried to place them in a balanced fashion.

I have, I believe fairly accurately, converted the:

7 parts could be reduced by removing redundant "models" (or with engine cfg on pulsejet?):

If you see my PR's.... As you see from comments > I was a total butcher trying to do surgery.... but I learned along the way these look solid now

PSSI's mod is DL live on curseforge still, for now: I will message the mod father, LGG, about PSSI, as I get no author reply on 4yr+ necro forum page. If not... I have the files, digital art skills and built in permission to "sufficiently edit" them for re-release.

1947 Ramjet(s) best data Thrust: 9,872 N at 0.85 Mach Number; Configuration: 3 fuel injection points just inside entrance to diffuser; crossed-lattices type flame holder; Weight: 56.7 kg

as of now

aazard commented 3 years ago

All files For testing, https://mega.nz/file/r0oUxAiQ#J4fEc4MLljqP1MvW7kkwRJjyBGkJr2nEED5ekJNqGbA

Also what are "build errors" (red X) and how do I request a "review" KSP_x64_wFmJcp6HZk Far left BOTTOM to top: All pulse/ram jets are radial "nacelle" styles, unlike the "inline" jets already in RO/RP1 as044, Ford/Chelomey (RD-013/PJ-31-1/D-7/SN510 valve-less specs mixed to make upgrade brand neutral) XRJ-30 alike PASBT type ramjet (betty jo) XRJ47-W-5 (or 3, Navaho) RJ43-MA-7/MQM (Bomarc) Stato-Reacteur (Nord 1500 Griffon) Not shown, Bonanza Tail, mass "balanced" for fuel capacity/HP, tails shown have 25 liter "structural tanks" (non-hp)

If I am not permitted to submit issues, PR's or CFGs please let me know and I wont submit more in the future. Please do look at this, it was alot of learning and turned out well

Research update: (its confirming luckly) Researching pulse jets of the 1950's era I found that the "fastest" thing ever powered by them was a "tv guided optical bomb" (more of a "auto fire" under target blocking enough light) named "DFS 360" (unmanned) The device was a reinforced wooden disc with a diameter of 30-40 meters that was loaded with liquid explosive material and would be powered by 6 Argus 044 pulse jets. This propulsion would give the aircraft a thrust of almost 3000 kg and propel the aircraft at a speed of 965 km/h. Single recorded use/craft downed, of an Avro Lancaster 965km/h = mach 0.78 or 268m/s....with 6 500kg thrust pulsejets (3000kg or 29.5kN), mine stop at about 240m/s (like 2x pushing a bonanza analog by themselves at 2000m altitude)

The "most powerful" single pulse jet I found specs for: Argus As 400 pulsejets with a thrust of 510kg, or 5.0014kN tested in single, dual, 4x and 6x setups on various testbeds (sems to not be an "argus" as its listed as SN-510, I'll try to find "sn" in era) recorded speed of test craft 810km/f (225m/s or mach 0.65) in late Aug 1943 at Rechlin, Manned: Heinkel He 280 V4 (6x pulsejets)

by 1950: D-7 with 900kg/1980lbs thrust or 8.826kN, kh10/kh18 at plant51 OKB 1946 in 2017 a test pulse jet did exceed 1000km/h, but thats a single 2017 prototype on a glider

Chelomey then proposed a missile equipped with a 900 kg thrust D-7 engine. But in 1947, aircraft designer A.
I. Mikoyan opened Department B in his Design Office. Led by M. I. Gourevich, he was in charge of guided missiles. Artem Mikoyan was none other than Anastas’ brother, member of the Politbureau and Deputy President of the Ministers Council.
In the beginning, Mikoyan proposed a smaller version of the Mig-9, but, in the end, the Mig-15 was finally selected. The KS-1 Kometa, propelled by a RD-500 turbojet, could cruise at more than 1,000 km/h while Chelomey’s missile in comparison could
only reach 950 km/h

D-7 equiped kh target drones/missiles are hard to get info on, but I do have an "exact scale image" with 1 meter squard grid for reference (I need to resize 1 last time to reflect irl) > specs of engine yes, dimensions not so much itla-171126-5a1b2614967f9-800x630 I see them as "3.75m long"

Chelomey D-7-14 = additional 110kg/240lbs thrust or total 2220LBF/9.8751kN, plant 51, revision 2 months after original D7 tests

GOT IT! USA 1947 Ramjets

Note "earliest" feasibly usable" The Dornier Do 17 became obsolete very soon after the start of WWII and was replaced by the Do 217. It was used how ever by the DFS (Deutusche Forschungsinstitut für Segelflug) to test Lorin type ramjets of various sizes being designed by Dr Eugen Sanger from 1941 onwards, an increase in speeds of over a 150km/h were recorded. With the strain being put on the Do 17's airframe it was decided to use a Do 217E to test the bigger engines in the development of a ramjet engine needed to power a supersonic aircraft. By 1945 Dr Sanger had designed the SK P.1040 which was just being built by the end of the war. SK P.1040 type: Sänger-Lorin ramjet (made by Eugen Sänger and a team of 80 Czech and 40 German engineers of the Škoda-Kauba industries in the occupied Czech Republic towards the end of WWII.) rated at 9,680 Ib thrust (4 390 kgp) at sea level at 630 mph (1010 km/h) and 2,970 Ib thrust (l 350 kgp) at 33,000 ft (10 060 m) ....thats 13.25kN to 43kN, 9.5m long

The XRJ-30 type series is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTV-N-2_Gorgon_IV 46 cm (18 in) and (60 cm (24 in)) on bumblebee PTV, vetty jo and a few other test beds. "Cobra-18" & "Cobra-24" Ramjet are technically XRJ-30's but one is larger (24) by about 15% http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app1/ptv-n-4.html USSR D-13 ramjets only used in airshow (later model D-16 replaced) The design bureau at plant 51, headed by Vladimir Chelomey, equipped 12 fighters with upgraded D-13 ramjets and prepared 10 of them for the air parade. In USA this leads to 1954/55 production of the Bendix ramjet sustainer 20,053lbf, 89.20kN (Talos) Tested in 55/56 was the powerplant of N-6 Rigel: Marquardt 28 ramjet 6,000 lbf (27 kN) 1949 December wright had completed the 1st (non-test) production unit of XRJ47 USSR: 1953 Thrust: 6.13 kN (1,378 lbf). Specific impulse: 1,580 s. Burn time: 800 s. RD-012U Bondaryuk ramjet. Burya, 1.2 m diameter 1st flight 1957. Thrust: 76.00 kN (17,085 lbf). Specific impulse: 1,500 s. Burn time: 8,500 s. Japan 1942/43 - In 1943 the IJA No. 2 Aeronautical Technology Research Institute, in collaboration with Kawasaki, built the Ne ramjet engine based on the designs of the Sänger Kayaba Model 1 (Ne 0a ramjet): ramjet engine, 7.355kN/1654lbf,（M 0.3）;300 kg,（M 0.5）;550 kg, (M 0.6～0.9） ;750 kg, combustion chamber one meter in diameter, length 2.13m, 294kg, ramjet startup: 267km/h at 1000m (post 20sec solid assist takeoff) but the "fitting" contract was awarded to the Ne 20 turbojet

aazard commented 3 years ago

Not to be belligerent, but is this issue/PR being "blackballed"? I put a fair amount of efort into this and I have yet to receive any

Do I need to open multiple fake accounts and start hiding who I am here due to peoples personal hatred of me? I would perfer to avoid anymore of these subterfuges

jwvanderbeck commented 3 years ago

The lack of replies is more to do with the content than the submitter.

The fact is these additions are really outside the scope of RO. We don't need yet more starting node airplane parts, let alone things like wooden plane parts in a game focused on space exploration. KSP-RO is not designed to be the totally open sandbox that stock KSP is, and instead has a tighter focus. Nobody in NASA was flying biplanes as part of the Space Race.

I would strongly suggest instead take the work you did and release them as a stand-alone RO compatible mod.

aazard commented 3 years ago

The lack of replies is more to do with the content than the submitter.

The fact is these additions are really outside the scope of RO. We don't need yet more starting node airplane parts, let alone things like wooden plane parts in a game focused on space exploration. KSP-RO is not designed to be the totally open sandbox that stock KSP is, and instead has a tighter focus. Nobody in NASA was flying biplanes as part of the Space Race.

I would strongly suggest instead take the work you did and release them as a stand-alone RO compatible mod.

Did you bother to look at issue. Biplane is a very minor add

I was more referring to the ramjets, which are RO and were for some reason ignored/missed by dev's in their historical uses

aazard commented 3 years ago

To recpap whats there:

aazard commented 3 years ago

The lack of replies is more to do with the content than the submitter.

The fact is these additions are really outside the scope of RO. We don't need yet more starting node airplane parts, let alone things like wooden plane parts in a game focused on space exploration. KSP-RO is not designed to be the totally open sandbox that stock KSP is, and instead has a tighter focus. Nobody in NASA was flying biplanes as part of the Space Race.

I would strongly suggest instead take the work you did and release them as a stand-alone RO compatible mod.

how are ramjets out of scope but turbo jets are not?

released separately it will receive less adoption and not make RP1 more true to life. The idea is to improve the missing content

"Nobody in NASA was flying biplanes as part of the Space Race." (Why the biplane focus, should I remove it?) But the USAF was working on ramjets, along with the balastic rocket program, as did the Ussr. Although the technology failed to receive "de facto" use, it was employed in many irl craft

PS: thank you for the reply I was wondering if it was blocked.

I will break this up into multiple PR's/Issues and resubmit them separately, thank you

jwvanderbeck commented 3 years ago

It is more a matter of, as I said, we really don't need more (more being the key word) starting node airplane parts. We really don't want nor intend for planes to be a large focus of the game. Vanilla KSP is designed to be a free open sandbox that you can build anything your heart desires including weird things like submarine, jetskis, biplanes, etc. Like anything. It's a physics sandbox.

RO as our mod is more focused on the space exploration aspects of the game and thus we do limit things in that respect. That is why for example CH-4 spun off as it's own compatible mod rather than be incorporated into RO itself. It gave them more freedom to do things that really didn't fit in mainstream RO, and it quite popular.

aazard commented 3 years ago

To address issue of "mixed content" I will try to clean this up in to induvial PR's for:

Balancing/placing the "partly done", but unplaced, aviation cockpits < minor, but it was fairly simple, +Bonanza mass fix

'sPSSI's pulse/Ram jets RO cfgs < this is the content that is not in RO/RP1 I believe would be historically and gameplay additive

"Opencockpit/firespitter" biplane < This I will not even bother to submit, as it seems there will be 0% interest or chance of inclusion on

If anyone has anything to add about the ramjets in particular, they are my main area of interest

Again, thanks for the reply jwvanderbeck, I have a better understanding of my error in submitting this

Unless you feel the ramjets are just wasteful, if so I understand

aazard commented 3 years ago

seems someone else with a better rep will need to address ramjets in future

if anyone is interested in the data/sources on irl historical ramjets, I will maintain an archive of units as far back as 1942