Yugoslavia coring SER/BUL

Bulgaria and Serbia can both form Yugoslavia and while Bulgaria's Zveno Yugoslavia cannot integrate Serbia, Serbia's integral Yugoslavia can integrate Bulgaria.

HOI4 version: 0.11.13 Kaiserreich version: 0.22

It makes no sense that only one can integrate the other. There is no justification for Serbia being able to integrate Bulgaria, but Bulgaria not being able to integrate Serbia for some weird reason, despite both being dictatorships and the two groups hate each other understandably. Either both can integrate or neither can. That's how it should be.

Not going to speak for the devs, but have you seen what type of government Zveno Yugoslavia is? It's a miracle that they can form Yugoslavia at all. I thought that democratic Bulgaria would be able to core it with the help of Stambolyski, due to him being a Yugoslavist and having close ties with Serbia and actually being able to pursue friendly relations with the Belgrade Pact. Zveno Yugoslavia literally fumbles itself saying "Long live Bul- I mean, Yugoslavia!", with Zveno using Yugoslavism as a front for territorial expansion, with no real goal for integrating people. It's like Three Named Nation for Serbian led Yugoslavia, only with Bulgarian supremacy now. Serbian integral Yugoslavia fights against tribalism, meaning there is no Serbs or Bulgarians, but creating a Yugoslav identity - which pisses off literally everyone, and is a hard Yugoslavia to consolidate for Serbia. Zveno Yugoslavia offers nothing to the Serbs, hence why they can never be cored. Socialist Yugoslavia and Integral Yugoslavia actually do something for integration of the Bulgarians, and it almost happened IRL with SFR Yugoslavia.

In short, partially agree with you, but Zveno could never core Serbia due to them being... well, Zveno. Integral Yugoslavia is the pan Slavic experiment where south Slav tribes don't exist, and socialist republics are united through their ideology and high autonomy, hence why it makes sense that Serb Yugoslavia can core them.

I would mostly agree when it comes to the nation of three tribes, which is the Yugoslavia where there are no serbs croats, but one Yugoslavia. However Integral Yugoslavia, aka pataut/natpop white hand is the greater Serbia that seeks to make everyone serbs, and that's the Yugoslavia that can core Bulgaria, which makes sense only if Zveno's bulgarianisation could do the same, because ultimately integral Yugoslavia and Bulgoslavia are very much the same.

Uhm, not true though. Nation of the three tribes recognizes only three nationalities: Serbs, Croats, Slovenes. Basically, Bosniaks and Macedonians don't exist, they are considered as Serbs. Three Tribes is the actual greater Serbia, with Serbia being the largest federal territory within Yugoslavia, and Serbs having the most rights. Meanwhile, Serb nationalism is being clamped down on in Integral Yugoslavia. Integral Yugoslavia is something which was attempted IRL by king Alexander, and was met with huge pushback by the Serbs themselves, who wanted to keep their identity as Serbs. Projects like calendar unification was heavily opposed by the Serbian Orthodox church as well. Alexander was extremely unpopular in Serbia because he didn't push for greater Serbis, but instead a national Yugoslav identity - integral Yugoslavia. IRL Radicals wanted the same thing the Radicals of Kaiserreich wanted: A federal state with Serbian federal territory encompassing the Greater Serbia claims. Integral Yugoslavia was not federal at all, banovina system was a front of federalism and self government which ignored the ethnic lines completely and just created a mess, pissing off everyone, pleasing no one. Integral Yugoslavia was a forceful attempt to transform the Yugoslav constituents into a new, mutant culture. Again, if this was this "Greater Serbia" you speak off, then the Serbs wouldn't have done anything about it, they would be happy. But they hated the idea IRL, and they hate it in Kaiserreich, as evident by the focuses damaging relations with Serbs and pretty much everyone else, because you are destroying their identity. Actual Serbisation (or whatever the term is for it) happens only in the nation of the three tribes: Macedonians and Bosniaks are basically assimilated to become Serbs. So, following that train of thought, Zveno Yugoslavia is neither the equivalent of the nation of the three tribes (because it is not federal at all), nor integral Yugoslavia, due to them not being integralist (as in, creating a new national/cultural identity). Hence why it especially doesn't make sense that Serbs would accept living in such Bulgaria. Again, if this was Stambolyski we are talking about, who might have tried to form something along the lines of United States of Yugoslavia which Serbs would actually accept due to referendum federalism, large liberties and equality, then that would make sense, due to aforementioned good relations between him and Serbs. But Zvenoslavia does not, their intentions are made clear within the very event that allows them to hijack Yugoslavism. It's not subtle at all. Zvenoslavia is not Integral Yugoslavia just because it is PatAut. Look at the focuses of Zvenoslavia, they have nothing in common with Integral Yugoslavia. Zvenoslavia forces Cyrillic alphabet on the country. Not very integral there. That's what three named nation Yugoslavia does, due to Serbs having the most power in the country and being the actual Piedmont of the Yugoslavia. Integral Yugoslavia can go to war for central Macedonia, but can never core it, due to south Slavs being in such a minority, with Greeks being an actual majority there. Hence why it's okay that Zvenoslavia can never core the Serbs, because they don't offer anything to them - they are literally occupied by the not-so-nice regime that is Zveno. Serbs can get away with assimilating Bosniaks due to the same language (and even the focus tree of the three named nation established an islamic religios community to actually give something back to the Bosniaks). But really, Zvenoslavia does nothing for them, so there is no way for them to be integrate. SFR Yugoslavia protects Bulgarian rights and is united by the ideology, Integral Yugoslavia forces everyone to be "equal" through a new culture and clamps down on tribalism (a very unstable Yugoslavia, but there was a decent following of this integralist project in Bulgaria as well), hence why it's possible to core them. United States of Yugoslavia, Three Named Nation and Royal Federation want nothing to do with Bulgaria (although an argument could be made for USY), hence why they can't core them and are content with Bulgaria just being a puppet. A different regime other than Zveno, like an actual integralist one, a democratic one with Stambolyski, or even a socialist one would actually make sense to core Serbia proper and push for reconciliation.

I'm not that well versed in otl Yugoslavia history, but while serbs may hate integral Yugoslavia, because it clams down on serb nationalism, other ethnicities hate it, because they see it as serbification. Zvenoslavia may be just bulgarianising other ethnicities, which works because croats, slovenes, etc have not been independent for a long time, but serbs hate it, because they have been independent and have great animosity towards bulgarians. In integral Yugoslavia bulgarians would not accept this new yugoslav culture fore the same reasons serbs wouldn't accept bulgarianisation. Bulgarians hate the serbs too much, their cultures and languages are quite different. Stambolyski or any leader could not make bulgarians accept assimilation into Yugoslavia. Additionally while zveno may be a very unlikeable military dictatorship, any serb government that can form integral Yugoslavia wouldn't really be any better or more popular outside their home territories.

Again, I don't know weather these two should or shouldn't realistically integrate the other, but it is unrealistic imo for only one to be able to do it just because they may go about it a little differently, because ultimately they have a similar endpoit, which is assimilation. It hardly matters weather it is yugoslavisation or bulgarianisation, because it would result in fundamental changes to culture and I do not believe, that bulgarians would be more pliable than serbs.

I mean, that's the difference: Bulgarisation is making someone a Bulgarian, which implies extreme bias and discrimination. I mean, look at Serbia's Yugoslavia in Kaiserreich. It's a pain to placate especially Croats, there is so many events where Croats lose relations in Yugoslavia mechanics. And mind you, these are the Serbs and Croats we are talking about. Croats have more in common with Serbs than with the Bulgarians. They speak the same language, they have the same strictly phonetic writing style, Serbs use both Latin and Cyrillic script. The major difference is the religion. So there is no major reason why Croats would be so hard to please in a country that either offers them large federal autonomy and concessions (USY, SFR Yugoslavia, Royal Federation) or is adopting the integralist model which actually originated from Croat intelligentsia. Obviously, Croats get pissed the most because of the Three Named Nation, because their federal territory is rather small and Cyrillic script is enforced on them, and it takes a lot of time (rounds) for them to adjust and to be placated by other concessions. Bulgarisation of Croats and Slovenes is not something that sounds even remotely possible, hence why I only have the issues with Zveno forming Yugoslavia and coring anything over the Drina river. I would agree that Stojadinovic dictatorship really has no business forming Integral Yugoslavia. Although the kingdom of Yugoslavia with the help of the pan-nationalist ORJUNA (Organisation of Yugoslav Nationalists - which were present in Slovenia and Croatia as well, the most hardcore integralists), the regency (Petar Zivkovic was actually a supporter of the integralist project, which is why he was chosen by king Alexander to be a prime minister OTL during the Yugoslav dictatorship) and ZBOR (which was also a Yugoslav movement, although mainly a Serb one, but also followed the integralist doctrine) could strongarm the population into compliance by the ways of oppression and indoctrination. Zveno is mostly a military circle with no pan Slavic ideals. The most they can do is force submission in the conquered territories through military opression, in a Yugoslavia which a worse front for greater Bulgaria than the Three Named Nation is for Greater Serbia. And again, Three Named Nation is actually federal, Zvenoslavia is completely centralized.

It really isn't "a little differently" though. Like I said, integralist project is something above petty tribalism, a sentiment that can be bolstered by the idea of a strong, new, unified culture which shares the same roots - or even be forced by clamping down on tribalist nationalism. But what sentiment is there in "You are going to be Bulgarian"? Croats and especially Slovenes don't have anything in common with them except for those South Slavic roots. I was disappointed that the process of integrating Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Slovenia as Bulgaria is so token and basic, without a real explanation that is believable. Meanwhile, it made more sense for Serbian created Yugoslavia to have a lot of chances to fail during the Yugo mechanics, by balancing the demands of the constituents. You can core Croat territories as Serbia, but if you don't placate them, and your relations with them go too low, they will rebel. The road to "Brotherhood and Unity" is hard, which is what makes a Serbia into Yugoslavia playthrough fun no matter the type of Yugoslavia. Meanwhile, Bulgaria has a magical core focuses which don't touch on the many problems of having other ethnicities within your country. Again, this is because Zvenoslavia is an easter egg, hence why it doesn't make too much sense and is there for the lols. Which is such a darn shame, because Bulgaria has a strong foundation as a democracy to form Yugoslavia, which would realistically be able to core not only Serbia proper, but also Croatia and Slovenia Which is why I would not advocate for the "If Bulgaria can't core Serbia, then Serbia shouldn't core Bulgaria", but instead advocate for a regime that would actually have the means of coring each other. Serbia has it, Bulgaria should to - Zveno is not it though, it never should have been.

The justification for zveno being the only faction to form Yugoslavia is because it had such sentiments otl and Other factions with such dreams simply won't be in a position to do it, because Stamboliyski can take power only after a loss in the war. Also I think, that the ability for zveno to integrate south slavs is based on the fact, that bulgaria has gained a lot of experience in assimilation in the past decades and because south slavs have not been independent for centuries, though I do wonder what maks Trieste so special, that it can't be cored. However Serbia can't be cored because they literally lost their freedom to Bulgaria. Again, if the cultural differences and hatred should prevent Bulgaria from integrating Serbia then it should go both ways. Even if Yugoslavisation is not serbification, it would still be rejected by bulgarians. Bulgaria never joined Yugoslavia, because they didn't want to bow to Belgrade.

I do agree, that the integration of Bulgoslavia should be fleshed out, because while compliance is a tall order, it's more about waiting than skill. Additionally the ideological direction of the zveno should have an effect in how it is done. A system similar to authoritarian centralist Yugoslavia would be nice, but it is up to the devs if they want to do it, because this is like you said an easter egg and not as important as serb Yugoslavia, which is the main attraction of that tag.

This will not be implemented.

Kaiserreich / Kaiserreich-4-Bug-Reports

Yugoslavia coring SER/BUL #20783