PER - Game summary for 3/10 (resistance mechanics in the Ottoman war)

[ReiVL]

Quick questions HOI4 version: 1.9 Kaiserreich version: Dev 3/10

SUMMARY OF SESSION

I've been doing a lot of tests recently where I've tried out the resistance mechanics in various wars. This time I wanted to try out the Ottoman-CP war and see how that turned out, and that will be the focus of this report.

The war has previously been skewing in favor of the Ottomans and I feel like it's even more so with the resistance mechanics in place. The resistance/garrison mechanics put a pressure on CP nation in terms of military resources that their factories cannot keep up with which reduced the effectiveness of their forces on the offensive. I don't think this needs to necessarily be addressed with buffs and putting out lots of factories all over the Middle East. Instead, things like claims could be a good tool for reducing resistance as they give a reduction to its severity. I'd give CP nations claims in most Sunni states if they don't have them already, and Iran should have claims in Iraq, or at least the more Shia dominated parts in the south. This would mitigate the effects of the resistance faced by these countries and let them keep up the offensive, but would mean that the moment they move beyond the modern borders of Syria and Iraq and into Turkish lands they face far stiffer resistance.

Since non-cores are a pain now, I also wished I had more tools at my disposal to create puppets and gain cores. Again, obviously not all over the Middle East, but if I could gain cores on eastern/southern Iraq and create a puppet in the Sunni areas so that I wouldn't have to deal with 50 years of resistance to the occupation of non-cored states, that'd actually be nice. I know that these states will be far more prominent in the rework though, but some coring and puppeting options beyond Syria would be much appreciated for a Persian player given how devalued non-cores have become.

Anyway, these are just some slight balance concerns and ways to address them that hopefully will work and be lore friendly and work within the context of Middle Eastern politics. I really do like the potential for resistance mechanics though. Turks facing a harder time in Arab lands, Sunni Arabs having a harder time in Shia areas and foreign occupants having a hard time across the board to win over the local population could add some interesting dynamics to the region whereas in the past you just rolled stuff over like you normally would with any nation. Not saying it has to just be something as simple as a million maluses, you could probably spin it in more creative ways, I just see a fair bit of potential for this mechanic.

In terms of the actual war though, I really, really like parts of it! It's a bit like a slog and the Ottomans are better off than the CP I think (their huge AI win ratio speaks to this) but what I adore about it is the decisions for city capturing with flavor text and some buffs. Love that stuff! I wish more wars utilized it. It does a good job encouraging the Ottomans to actually defend their cities and for the CP to fight over strategic cities beyond just factories and victory points. It adds a lot of character to the conflict and I appreciate it.

I don't really have much more to add right now. I think most of what I would've said is stuff I know is already being looked into or changed in the reworks,so we'll save it for when that branch needs testing.

[Myrten]

Having played as Persia in 0.11.1 I had similar experience - I didn't have enough infantry equipment to cover both garrisons and army needs, I had to switch to "No garrison" in some states to fill more important ones. I think Persia's starting debuffs are to severe for now and should be reduced

[ReiVL]

Yeah, let's talk about them for a bit.

First off, your economy is weak and you'll have a lot of production issues. These are gradually dealt with after Black Monday but take a very long time to deal with as you need to deal with BM debuffs and then nearly a dozen more focuses to get rid of your outdated economy. During this time, you're only able to produce ~10-20 infantry eqs a day depending on whether or not you want to have artillery or not.

Then there's the research slots and illiteracy. These set you back well over 50% for doctrines and a decent chunk for regular research as well. It'll take you the better part of a year of 70 day focuses to mitigate the illiteracy and get a third research slot, and then you still can't do doctrines since that's behind 200-ish days of focuses.

In the political tree you have a myriad of problems as well. Negative spirits, stability cuts and all manner of problems. The thing reeks of being outdated, especially since it bears the hallmark of outdated trees: the enormous PP dumps later on that were great before stability was introduced to HOI4, but now just make it even easier for me to get all advisers in the world.

There is a very sensible argument in defense of this: it all makes sense and isn't unrealistic. Persia should have to deal with these problems. However, the massive amount of time needed is a problem. Perhaps portions of this could be moved over to decisions. Also, perhaps Persia could be allowed to mitigate the effects of its poor industry and better prepare for war with the ottomans by procuring weapons from places like Germany, Austria and perhaps even more novel places like Sweden or France depending on where you align yourself. I think measures like these would allow Persia to overcome some of these issues without destroying the balance of the region or make it unrealistically easy to do it. You'd just have to spend PP (and perhaps other resources) to get there, rather than exclusively being tied to your focus tree.

On the subject of PP abundance, spending PP to deal with resistance/claims/cores is also a valid solution I think.

Anyway. I'm in agreement with Myrten that the debuffs are quite severe and take too long to overcome from a balance perspective. Hopefully a balance can be struck between realism, a healthy challenge, and also giving the players the tools needed to make sure the challenge can be overcome and the playing field leveled. 👍

To tl;dr my off-the-top-of-my-head idea for a balance revision for Persia (can't speak to the CP as a whole until I replay them):

1) Consider speeding up some of their internal problem solving by using decisions and allowing players to spend PP/factories/whatever to overcome these problems. 2) Consider giving Persia claims in some of the Iraqi territories to mitigate the more extreme effects of resistance. 3) Consider allowing Persia to create an Iraqi puppet state and coring others. Off the top of my head, the more Shia dominated area would be easier to justify the coring of though my knowledge of 1930's middle eastern demographics may be lacking here. 4) Consider making it easier tor Persia to acquire weapons by mitigating the length/severity of the industrial debuffs and by allowing them to purchase foreign guns for PP.

Hopefully these measures would work and make Persia even more fun to play. 👍

[Jeankedezeehond]

@WordZero77 Most of these things are relating to Persia, not sure what you want to do with them

[Pietrus69]

Split this issue up also