Iron ore mining time increasing with maximum 30%

[thunder6]

Hello! Balance case: Increase ironore mining time with +20-30%

I think to you all read about this on forum. I collected some opinions and thoughts from former testers and better than average players. Well I use to get cold reactions some players see also what and why I recommend this change but the Mass PT army use to won. :S Use to won while the game balance is not perfect economicaly. I spent time to make maps which have locations with only 2ironmine slots. I made a map where locations have 2-3-4-5 mines also(The Last Port). If somebody would compare performance strategies of these kind of locations TLP is a nice choice to check it. So basicly spent time to research this.

There are many opinions and main research results. It is long but I tried to summerize why I think it would be good for the game. Pros and cons at the end of the doc. The main reason of the change is the leather production has to catch the ironproduction much earlier than can do it now. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NLpXtiauzuhJ8mSq-paiirhTqzuclBNKlpOCha6k__U/edit

Here is a shoutcast also (made by Ben) about a 2mines game. Interesting because in that game were lots of scouts without boosts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5z9QcsOqpg

Thank you to think on this!

[vovets1]

Krom doesn't want to see speed scout boost anymore, don't worry. I see you really want to kill short pt games. Because after this change militia rush will be able again on pt 35-40. There will be no power to defeat militia, because we don't have cheap units from TH, towers are not so powerful, and with iron fix we'll have a couple of iron units which can't cope with militia rush. As for video, there were more knights than scouts anyway. Moreover, you can't judge this by only one not-finally-proofing video. Whole stats says contrary. I consider that leather-iron are in balance now except scout-knight. At least useful. Solo pikes can't win games, but they can add usual sword+bow army perfectly. Also, i wrote following on kam.net some months ago: "Every unit has his own time of using Militia - 10-40(50) min or in late for emptying towers. Xbows and pikes - 25-until end of the game if you like strat with them, or until 45 min if not Sword - 45 min - until the end (of early stages pikes are better bcs there are not so much ranged) Bow - 40 min-until the end Knight - 30-until the end Axes - 60(70)-until the end. When you have about 50 bows, no need to do more. So you can do axes Lance - after 45 when knights appears, then you can do them to counter Scout - after about 3th hour of a game bcs of out of iron core."

So if you want to increase amount of leather soldiers - change peasetime from 60 to at least 65, and feel the difference.

[thunder6]

I checked many games and I decide select randomly some of those maps. But one week ago I was spectating an game on ERuption and players did the same armies without zero variety. Nice performances, but seems no effective strategy which can counter the strongest under the same PT. So it is a real problem. Sworman+knight+bowman and some lancers. and other troops are out of the game. You know this problem also because had an idea to make scouts shinyer.

The video had lots off scouts. More than usualy a normal game has. Next to Xbow+axefigter the scouts could be good choice.

The short or 0 PT games. Those never been relevant. Slows down the ironmines would not make huge changes on an basicly broken game mode. As you offering to me playing 5minutes longer, I could offer to those who are playing 0-30minutes game to do the same. The game can not be well balanced on every PT. :S As I know the most played mode is 90++minutes. The second place is 60minutes and somewhere end of the line the short 30-0 PT games. The game needs PT. It is a kind of tradition also. Still in the SP modes most of the times the BOTs give you time to build an entire village. I would say 55-65minutes PT is normal and all other is an option.

And maybe misundeerstood me, because i dont want to raise the leather army, I would like to change the rates between leather-Iron troops to make larger change to the axefighter+xbow combo which has basicly larger investent under the basebuilding phase. So the players would start the game with similar amount of army ~80troops but not 40iron-40leather rather 30iron-50leather. And 50leather jacket is coming only if the players invest more into farms! So need +1swinefarms and more farms! So it is not free!It is a bit different. Anyway if somebody would not raise his leather production then would have 30iron-40leather or kind of army. My destiny is to make the game more colorfull without huge changes. And it is a really small one which would give some more option then only go for a micro village with the strongest army combination. Anyway the iron only and the leather only strategies also should be compareable somehow. Still rushing iron doesn't have any risk. from 30!minutes most of the players have full ironproduction before make their first swine farm, sometimes piggies are later than stable. So for me, yes seems the economical side went on totally wrong direction under the years. The ironrush overtook everything and the simplictiy of the best armycombination is killing other stategical options. I see the point of the retired player who want harder food to solve this problem. Not Im the one who see this. But would have to find a solution on this.

Slowing down iron mines or Making weaker food to have to start with more farms or earlier piggies and then the iron rush would be more risky.

PS: I would offer to use the NM2.3 script For 0-30PT gameswhich makes the game more funnier. Not only milites but ranged and mounted troops would be avaiable then also. And with weapon price on fair way. Many of the players would like to see those troops in the barrack on normal way! Unfortunately i could not script it on that way:S

[vovets1]

On short pt 5-min-add advice doesn't work, because in this case the way of playing this mode changes. You play with leather mostly, not with iron and militia. In this case building for 60 and 45 min are almost the same. You shouldn't decide by current popularity. Now short pt games can't be played by newbies, because this game mode is difficult and it doesn't forgive players' mistakes in building and fighting, and ts players... i don't know why don't they play it, can't find logical explanation. Also, a lot of PT sets can't be played because of game problems, e.g. 0 pt. They need very specific maps now. But it can become playable after some changes in game. Unfortunately, there is very small chance for them to be implemented. You try to proove that pt around 60 is normal, and others are options. You're wrong. Every pt is an option. And i consider that mirror armies after 60 pt is a problem of 60 pt, not of the whole game. Yes, 60 is a tradition, but sometimes traditions must be broken. Really, some centures ago there were lots of traditions which we don't follow now. And we don't really disappoint at this.

[thunder6]

I don't want to be pessimistic, but this game never be good on every PT. The zero PT games are not popular because maybe because there is also one very effective strategy way. And playing always the very same way maybe is boring. Longer PT games can give more strategies, but those are not balanced well either so yes still one very effective building way is there. Should match the economic side to the power of the troops.

"You shouldn't decide by current popularity. " True. These game modes (0-60) are played very rarely, If open remake will see mostly 90min++ with script games// Anytime. And can wait whole day for normal game without TS and friends and that still not guarantee game.

"You're wrong. Every pt is an option. " many cases have no sense for play in the curent release. It is not a star craft game. A minimum 45 minutes PT is recommended for a healthy game. Maybe should make votes about the prefered PT setting on facebook or forums to check it :S . 0,30,45,55,60,65,70,75,90,100,120. with question which is the most played by you? i'm almost sure over 90++ would be the winner,,, We could discuss whole day all of the PT settings pros and cons, but there were more radical game changes which made this visible situation to this release.

The Remake already broke many original KAM TSK traditions or rules, and actualy did it always(?) on the right way, But somehow the iron and leather production is switched in time, no risk to going to making iron production before 30mins. And it is why other strategies lost their real strenght. OKay the ironproduction is avaiable before leatherproduction, but on what costs?

So yes, strategicly there is this a problem. You have similar problem on low PT, me and some other player see kind of similar problem on higher PT. But I can say different way to reflect the problem. Going for mass swordman +knights is much easier and cheaper than going for MASS Xbow+pike which still not guarantee can beat the swordman+knight combination. Compare a village with ~65 building with a village which has ~75buildings becuase going for MASS pikes or xbows need larger village and more citizens. Seems the diference is not to large but have to see that need more knowledge to build that than the Swordman+knights....

Weaker food maybe could help on lower PT also(it is mentioned on the forum.net), but I prefer slowing down iron mining time. 20-30% is not a ridiculus changes but would make more variations avaiable on competitive level.

And really sorry but I can not tell you when I played 0-30PT game last time. Maybe was it on Cube for fun without any fun....sad, but true.

I know the trend of the game is be faster in time and there are many players who are forcing faster openings, faster buildings. (like skip the inn after the school and immediately open woodcutter+quarry or playing higher speed than 22 etc...) But sometimes it makes disasters. i accepted many of these changes hardly but said okay let it be. But I'm not blind to say NOT everything is OK. the game has one very effective building way and the reasons are known, only should match some values which not touched yet.

Some offered solution: *Foods be weaker.- It can be a solution because the players would have to force the faster and more farms erlier than iron. Ironrush would get Hunger risk. As I know there were some hunger settings already. This would change radically the game. The players wood need new prebuilds and completly new thinking ways. It would not be popular either.

*Slows donw the ironore mining time- It would touch mainly the produced iron ore only. An elegant and easy way to broke a traditional KAM TSK parameter to adjust this value to the other values which already were changed. This solution would not be popular either because the players like to start with mass iron after PT...But the leather get less focus because this mass iron...

So the problem is visible, but many of the former testers and players sit into this easy and comfortable situation. Players are afraid of the changes still if agree the problem is there... No scouts, no axefighters as main army...No reason to make them in early games...No real late games because mass knights use to can kill the bunch of mass bows...

Personaly, the game has less challange then it had before. Still the players going for games where the very mass spams are available shortly and easily and not need too much brain to build. I know and agree to hard to judge this. But as a mapmaker who always has long discussions about the game, about the mechanisms, about maps(still discussion about not my maps also) about the actualities with much better player than me still can say should care with the economic balance much better... With regards!

[reyandme]

Not an easy question, as I can see by these long posts. I personally agree with both of you guys that we need some changes in balance. That is for sure. My 5 cents: In many games every, let's say, year there is a new patch, where balance changes a bit to make different strategies work better (sometimes even new units are introduces). Why can't we do similar thing in KaM? Yes I know this is KaM Remake. But original KaM was about Campaign, not about MP games much. MP games development should use different approach - to make game more "playable" (more strats) on everyday basis.

[vovets1]

Heh, my purpose was to popularize short pt by adding th and fixing market. You agreed that we shouldn't look at current popularity, but you look in current lobbies in KaM and say that 90 is the most popular, offer to make a voting about current favourite game mode. How to understand this? i think you know that i wish changes in remake as well as you. But this way is not correct. Making food weaker seems better, because we can just add more food in the storehouse to return current lvl of food in the beginning, and in late game we'll have to pay more attention to food (yes, i talk about short pt game). Every pt won't be popular if we don't do something for this. But if we do, then it can be changed to better. That is only your opinion that we need at least 45 minutes pt. At least it doesn't match to mine.

[vovets1]

What is more, i am not sure that weakening food will popularize scouts and wont make bows too OP (btw, they are now OP :p)

[thunder6]

I opened this topic because I already thoguht lot on it and seems it be longer than i wanted. We have some points with common thoughts. The food is out, as idea would not be popular and still would be harder managing horses. The iron ore mining time is also out because seems that would not be popular either.

I went for running-a bit cold outside- and for me totally let be clear what the my problem is and how could fix this problem.

The 3rd and the best solution would be radicaly increase the sword making time in the weaponry.

If producing sword in weaponry would take more time, then would need a second weaponry also in every case to producing swordmans massivly. (I know some cases the players manage with 2 weaponries but most of the time still stay at the 2armory-1weaponry strat). (2weaponries are used most of the time when need to catch up 30++swords in 7-10minutes) So maybe I explained this thing on totally wrong direction what or how would be nice.

So I think +30% sword production time could equalize the economical strategy ways withouth huge changes. And then still nobody would complain about the less iron more leather and other stuff. Still it is not touching deeply the zero-30 PT games because it is hurts only the swordman and knigths. Makes harder to produce them.

In this case the swordman and knights also would get their exclusive price and would balancee the economical side.

"Heh, my purpose was to popularize short pt by adding th and fixing market. " -Well, personaly after I've seen and tried how would it look out and would work TH units from barrack, now I totally disagree with the original TH way-buying troops for gold. Very hard to balance them with the ingame troops on the right way or would have to use the marketvalues to calculate their price. For example 1milite cost would be 5goldchest(1axe is 4goldchest+1recruit) , 1 vagabond would be 13goldchest(axe=4+horse=8+recruit=1). To me TH units from the barrack makes sense, and still the players close their eyes when get warrirors from 2 swords. I know would be nice if the econom would have images for those weapons, but for example 1lance+1recruit=1rebel looks out cool. Just would be nice on the right training way withouth tricks. Here is a smaple game. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0ZYfNVJk5DjQ0JYVFBJZGlNNVU I would not say these troops are imbalanced with these cost because their strengh is the weaknesses:D

Market, Well this market is working nicely, maybe some values could be cheaper to have sense to trade them. Opened a topic with a table.

[vovets1]

As for market, i suggested to open goods there when you build necessary building for it. E.g. you can't use sausages in trade until you don't open it in building menu (or build this house). It could kill market rush on pt <30. But Krom rejected. For TH the same: Krom rejected. Variant with th units in barrack is not so bad, but it' ancient as mammoth. Main problem - we don't have weapon for barbarian, rogue (must draw them), balance things: vagabond horse+axe+recruits would be useless as scout now (even more). To be honest, you really overestimate power of TH units, especially barbarians. But no sence to speak about that. As for your suggestion. This one is arguable one. If you remember 4179 time, you know that meta: xbows+militia/lances/axes. That was cancer, ofc. Then my idea was to give +1 armor to units with shield. It was implemented. I don't know why, but bows' attack speed was upgraded. This one wasn't necessary. Why? When we upgraded swords and knights first of all, ofc we need ranged. But if we equipped swords, we don't have iron for xbows anyway. And we have to equip bows without their upgrade. But in this case axe+xbows would have been useful. And, as always, we have only one useless unit - scout. So i think that we can make variety of strats by fixing bows. Second argument against - in fighting maps swords and knights will still be powerful. Do not forget about this =)

[thunder6]

And what about the 3rd idea to fix the problem(The bulding strategies are easier at the most powerfull strat)? Making slower sword production? this would make reason to make second weaponry for making swords which would be the 4t iron weapon creator building so should create 3rd ironsmelters and more coalmines as in the mass pikes and mass xbow case. I think to need to handle this situation.

The Market and TH is another topic. Maybe should discuss them in other topic. "But Krom rejected." I think to all trade has to avaiable from the starts because if somebody miss stone /wood/ gold etc... at the start then the only thing what can trade with little risk is food or similar.

"Main problem - we don't have weapon for barbarian, rogue (must draw them), balance things: vagabond horse+axe+recruits would be useless as scout now (even more). To be honest, you really overestimate power of TH units, especially barbarians. But no sence to speak about that." Well, actually I dont 't overestimate these units. I see clearly these units are useless at PT, and still can not beat a "classical" strategy. BUT! http://screenshot.sh/mKSrQkxgUvUOM it is very useful in lategame in some situations and gives more funs and actualy can be more fun in low PT games also becasue not only milites would be avaiable when milities are already there. (Shoters without leather) Anyway somebody said to me 'more units, more fun'- And yes, strange to see 40-50 barbarians can race with 35 swords only on very hard ways.

[vovets1]

As i consider, main problem of sword+bow+knight is in bowmen. So if we fix them, combo would be weaker. But idea with only swords is better than +30% to all iron anyway.

[lewinjh]

I haven't read much of the walls of text written here, I have limited time I can spend on KaM Remake unfortunately.

If slower iron production leads to better games why not just make more maps with only 2 spots for iron mines? (or modify existing maps) That should have the same effect without modifying core KaM mechanics.

[vovets1]

Ok, if we play map with 2 iron mines, we really have less iron units. But it doesn't nerf power of bows, which will be even more powerful when we don't have much iron units. So, we'll get sutiation like in 4179: OP ranged + weak melee(in our case not weak, but few in numbers) = victory (in 4179 it was xbow+militia/lance/axe). I think none wants this hell again.

This walls of texts looks fearful, but the main thing was why his idea with +30% iron mining time is bad. Then why food effeciency reduction is not that good. Then Thunder suggested to increase sword production time. But this idea has one disadvantage: what is logical explanation why sword is been doing longer than xbow or pike?

My position is that we should nerf bows back (if so, xbows bonus against units with shield should be deleted as well), because when we have powerful swords and powerful bows, this combo is the most popular as we can see during last 4 years, and the second is to upgrade scouts, bcs almost none use them.

[thunder6]

"Nerf power of bows?" - disagree, balance of the units are OK. Very OK. I wanted to talk only about the balancing the iron strategies in this topic.

In my opinion would have to increasing sword making time(for me okay if the iron shield time is growing) to be equalize the costs of the iron strats! I want to see +1more ironweapon maker in the ironproduction line in the swordman case also. +1weaponry would mean +1smelter and +2-3coalmines. In this case the iron strategies would equalize themselfs. making swordmans massivly making xbows/pikes massivly

Sword+knight combo needs the 5pieces less building in the iron production line to creating them massivly than mass Xbow/pike strategies. Adjusting Horse also easier to the swordman than to xbow/pike. Build up and set it once and touch it never again.

Now Sword+knight+bow is easiest and strongest and cheapest to set/build it. usualy +10added lancers are added vs knights. Pike/xbows/axefighters are forgotten in massive way because need more ivestsment and still quality mounted troops are out also. More investments could mean more woodcutter more sawmills and more farms also because more citizens need more food. So the 5 building difference immediately starting to growing. If goes for xbows, need kind of meele, pikes or axefighters which still need more wood investsments than a single bowman. So yes economicaly much harder to play Xbow/pike or axfighter than Sword+knigth easy sets.

Already 4 ideas were there: 1st +30%iron ore mining time- It would not be popular, the players would dislike it and less then 3 ironslots maps would be out of played maps. 2nd- changing food harder- It would not be popular either, and would change the game dramatically. 3rd +30% sword making time- in this case would need a 2nd ironweaponry also and the other additional building also. 4th +30% ironshield making time- in this case would need a 3rd ronarmory to increase the the numbers of the ironweapon creators building number to the sme level.

I know now, can say the swordman making is harder than creating xbows or pikes only becasue the last one enough this. But globaly adjust horse to ironproduction and will see the disadvantage of swordmaking will be huge advantage immediately.

About 2mines map popularity: hm, in my opinion because really ~10-14 less iron troops are there and not too many good 2iron mines maps are out there. I made some for testing this +30%ironore mining time and I got conclusions after checked and compared many of these games. I enjoyed these games much better because more variations are there. But seems problem is real and with a bit less iron troops the games got more variants and was harder to predict what the players will make. Now sword or shield making time grwing time seems to me fair. Than lancers xbows pikes axefighter would not be only "additional " and late game units. Still the scouts could shine next to the xbows and pikes.

But under the long posts somehow other topics poped up also and let it be really long. But I was thinking lot about this thing and really feel that the game would get rock paper scissors under the PT also. Now if you would ask me what a player-(who knows the game and not only a farmer)- will make at PT I would tell you on almost any map 7-10Knights +25-30swordman + 25-30bowman +5-10lance carrier. And it would be true more than 80% of the games. (I know... 60PT 11) But please pop up an iron strategy which contains Xbow or pikes massivly and same investments need to beat this kind of army. That 25- 30 swordman are Monsters. I would not have chance with 40+pikes or with 40+xbows. In this case still have to abuse numbers of goldmine and Metallurgists also. The costs are much higer. In time maybe 15-20minutes later could catch the sword strategy, but until the game is over. So when I said one very effective straegy is there I meant on this. Lots of players agreed with me, but when asked for solutions I got those interesting answers and only one useful was there(changing food). I beilive to making swordmans weaker //only ECONOMICALY!// can solve some other problems (kicks one way game, gives more chance scouts at PT, gives back some forgotten types of the units, harder PT predictions/more mixed armies would coming.)