Paladin - Reckoning Charge procs from npc attacks while sitting

[banallwowbots]

http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-paladin/1069149.htm

Can I sit down to force a crit and gain a charge? Charges will not generate off auto attacks or npc attacks by trying to sit down and force a crit. However, ability crits from physical abilities such as Sinister Strike, Hamstring, Auto-shot, Aimed shot, etc will generate a charge if you're sitting.

This is the video where the confusion comes from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuPEzEoexLI This is a "how-to-reckoning"-video from back in vanilla days where a paladin use sit commands (default X keybinding) because he believes that he could force Reckoning Charges by sitting. During the fight against Searing Lava Spider you can see he generates Reckoning Charges. Here is some stats from that fight before he's full on Reckoning Charges:

• Spider misses the paladin a total of 3 times
• Spider normal hits the paladin a total of 3 times
• Spider critical hits the paladin a total of 7 times

Now, the critical hits received is crucial here, because 4 critical hits received should be enough (5/5 Reckoning talent) to be full on Reckoning Charges (4). In the video he is beeing victim of 7 critical hits before he gets the last Reckoning Charge.

The only argument against this is that we don't know whether he is 5/5 in Reckoning, or not. What we do know, he is 0/26/25 (https://youtu.be/kuPEzEoexLI?t=2m1s). Now, why would a Reckoning Paladin have less than 5/5 in Reckoning in a tutorial video In my opinion this is a vague argument.

Meaning we have a vague argument vs a blue post and a video supporting that blue post.

Yesterday we had a "discussion" about it on Paladin channel on Discord: Basically me vs Theloras (and some teenagers). You can find that discussion here

Update 1: We have these statements (with date) from retail vanilla:

• I didn't see you mention, crits from sitting no longer add to reckoning (10/2/2005)
• Charges will not generate off auto attacks or npc attacks by trying to sit down and force a crit (5/25/2006)

Update 2: The video that Theloras used as evidence for claiming that you can force reckoning charges while sitting, has already been discussed up and down in this report. He has stated mulitple times in this report that the video is the closest evidence to 1.12.1:

• Gankadins video is the closest evidence to 1.12.1
• I don't have to do anything as the video is the closest evidence to 1.12.1...

You sure about that? Take a look at the description of the video:

I did not create the movie, the original creator posted it on the WoW forums, but the post died and he never uploaded it to any video sites. So here it is! Enjoy.

This means that the video can't be used as "closest evidence to 1.12.1". Not that it really matters as my point still stands regarding the video. What we do have is this blue post from 5/25/2006: Charges will not generate off auto attacks or npc attacks by trying to sit down and force a crit

Update 3: As Garknu said in a post below; you should find a source (between 1.10 and 1.12.1) that contradicts this blue post.

Update 4: I stand corrected. It was possible to abuse this in retail vanilla due to server lag.

[cudderi]

Here is a comment on a vanilla thread called "Guide to RECKONING (Unchanged in 1.9!)": "### I didn't see you mention, crits from sitting no longer add to reckoning.", comment dated 10/2/2005 7:05:02 PM PDT (October 2005 in the comment section, archived link is march 2006).

The guide itself also says, that sitting does not proc reckoning, and that might have been edited in later.

link to comment on page 2: https://wayback.archive.org/web/20060328085254/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=446313&p=2

[banallwowbots]

Thank you cudderi for valuable input.

[Seberats]

The video shows someone who smash "x" which isn't the right thing to do. You need to spam /sit macro to proc reck.

[theloras]

copy pasting from Paladin discord and my schooling of banallwowbots:

Theloras (Feenix Refugee)Today at 9:05 AM The video came out AFTER the blue post from patch 1.11 whereas the post was 1.10 And that vanilla wow forum reck guide is from even EARLIER in Vanilla Circa patch 1.9 "Guide to RECKONING (Unchanged in 1.9!)": "### I didn't see you mention, crits from sitting no longer add to reckoning.", comment dated 10/2/2005 7:05:02 PM PDT (October 2005 in the comment section, archived link is march 2006).

Theloras (Feenix Refugee)Today at 9:09 AM Gankadins video is the closest evidence to 1.12.1 Which is what spells, abilities and talents are set to Lemme give you a history lesson

Theloras (Feenix Refugee)Today at 9:10 AM Originally we could stack multiple ranks of the same judgement I found proof that this was blizzlike And had found evidence from pre 1.9 Even the devs admitted as much But no one could find evidence post 1.9 And because of that and only because of that they nerfed it

Theloras (Feenix Refugee)Today at 9:12 AM YOU HAVE TO SHOW EVIDENCE AS CLOSE TO 1.12.1 A forum post from 1.9 or a blue post from 1.10 dont mean shit compared to a step by step video from patch 1.11 The paladin literally shows STEP BY STEP In his video The mechanic

Theloras (Feenix Refugee)Today at 9:20 AM

1. If he was sitting the entire time you would have proof
2. Alas he was mashing his X button
3. Which causes him to stand back up
4. Requiring 7 crits to gain 4 charges leads any skeptic to propose that he wasnt 5/5 reck
5. He doesnt use Sancrity Aura
6. He uses Conc or Ret Aura in his 2 videos

[GarKnu]

Nice find! I never actually thought about it, because it's a long time since we played retail vanilla. Additionally, the private server scene always had this "bug", so I guess we just got used to it.

If I recall correctly I do believe it was possible in the very early days of vanilla, but that it got hotfixed not long after.

[theloras]

Theloras (Feenix Refugee)Yesterday at 8:07 PM now listen to me plz - in the end you may in fact be correct about Reckoning however you cannot prove to me with 100% certainty based on that blue post alone since the Gankadin video is from later on in vanilla likewise neither of us can prove 100% whether he is 5/5 reck either

Theloras (Feenix Refugee)Yesterday at 8:09 PM what we do know for a fact however is that the talent CHANGED multiple times over the course of the 2 year vanilla era you are a retard because of your tone and delivery

Theloras (Feenix Refugee)Yesterday at 8:16 PM A Short (And Subjective) History (Thanks Nidhogg)

Reckoning originally reset your swing timer + gave you the extra attack if you were in melee range. This was nice, but did nothing if they were behind you (rogue) or at range. There was a bug with this, where if you had a Reckoning attack but were stunned, your swing timer was bugged, and you would not be able to attack until you were crit again (to fire your reckoning off).

They patched this, and gave it its second incarnation. This was the current form minus the charges. This was the most fun you could have as a Paladin to date in my opinion. Unlimited stores equalled insta-shotting anyone with enough charges stored up. The fix was to give Paladins a way to still have the talent be useful (instead of useless by being stunned from behind) and also to fix the attack swing bug the original had.

Well Blizz didn't like this new method of killing people. Sure it was situational, but it had adverse affects on PvE content. You could, if devoted enough time, one shot the outdoor Raid bosses. There are instances (I dont have the links) of a Paladin getting Kazzak to 50% and even killing him in one swing.

Blizz realized that they had struck gold with this talent fix but needed to fine tune it, so they added a reckoning limit, and voila. They should go one step further and explain the conditions it fails and call it working as intended.. but whatever. http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-paladin/1069149.htm

[theloras]

"Fixed an issue where spells that proc while a player was standing would not proc if they were sitting or lying down." http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_2.0.1

"Enrage: This talent can now trigger while the Warrior is sitting." http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_2.3.0

[theloras]

Theloras (Feenix Refugee)Today at 9:09 AM Gankadins video is the closest evidence to 1.12.1 Which is what spells, abilities and talents are set to on LH and all other private servers

Patch 1.12.1 Release (US) 26 September 2006 http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.12.1

How to be a Gankadin Published on Aug 8, 2006 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuPEzEoexLI

Subject: Guide to Reckoning V2 (Current 1.10) Poster: Baconn at 5/25/2006 11:30:17 AM PDT http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-paladin/1069149.htm

I didn't see you mention, crits from sitting no longer add to reckoning. 10/2/2005 7:05:02 PM PDT https://wayback.archive.org/web/20060328085254/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=446313&p=2

[theloras]

Blizzard Blue Post History regarding Reckoning during Vanilla showing the multiple changes and bug fixes to the talent from 2005-2006:

Poster: Pavonum at 5/7/2006 12:35:58 AM PDT Subject: Re: Reckoning. Is it fixed yet? It would appear that this particular issue is still active, but we are currently investigating the matter in our efforts to determine its cause and devise a more permanent resolution. In the meantime, Ochie, I'd like to apologise for any frustration this may have caused you during your battles. http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-customer-service/9456.htm

Poster: Fangtooth at 9/12/2005 5:52:23 PM PDT Subject: Re: "problem with reckoning" We are aware of the issues with Reckoning, and we hope to have them fixed in an upcoming patch. http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-paladin/407317.htm

Poster: Hortus at 6/3/2005 2:52:04 PM PDT Subject: Re: Bug? Reckoning resets swing... Thanks for the report. This issue has been noted and can be found here: http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-realm-test/40837.htm

Poster: Tyren at 5/12/2005 11:32:06 AM PDTSubject: Hotfix - Paladin talent: Reckoning We have hotfixed the Paladin talent Reckoning to stack a maximum of 4 times. This change will take effect the next time realms are restarted. http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-general/3097293.htm

[theloras]

Mobywan ~2400 2v2 Ret/Rogue https://youtu.be/m2jg2bZp8MM?t=138

• originally uploaded here http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=74881
• while it primarily focuses on TBC Arena action, Mobywan included the clip at the 138 second mark to show Vanilla world PvP action and more specifically him keeping RECK charges while mounted
• which the Blue post specifically states should not be possible

[GarKnu]

Oh boy, yet again you provide links and whatnot that are not related to this issue at all. Theloras, this is NOT about swing resets, reckoning stacks hotfix, not in range bug and other non-related issues. What we do have is a blue post from patch 1.10 stating:

Charges will not generate off auto attacks or npc attacks by trying to sit down and force a crit

Then we have this video from august 2006 (patch 1.11)

Now, instead of providing non-related links, I ask you to find a blue post or some actual evidence that reverts this statement (see above) between 1.10 and 1.12.1. What you should be looking for in you digging adventure is something close to this: Charges will generate off auto attacks or npc attacks by trying to sit down and force a crit

Let me help you and save you some time; you won't find it.

Seberats:

The video shows someone who smash "x" which isn't the right thing to do. You need to spam /sit macro to proc reck.

This is new to me, care to elaborate? You can't proc reckoning by standing?

[Seberats]

if you smash x you sit, then stand, then sit... it's not the same as spamming the /sit macro. It's common knowledge guys.

[GarKnu]

sigh... Let me rephrase:

You need to spam /sit macro to proc reck

Is this correct? You can't proc reckoning by standing? Yes/no?

[EdgeOfShadow]

Stop with this semantics, it doesn't lead to anything.

Unless you really don't understand what he meant, but that would be just sad...

[theloras]

@GarKnu - the onus is on YOU to disprove the Gankadin video - I don't have to do anything as the video is the closest evidence to 1.12.1 which is the benchmark upon what Lightshope and all other Vanilla private servers emulate towards as far as spells/abilities/talents:

Patch 1.12.1 Release (US) 26 September 2006 http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.12.1

How to be a Gankadin Published on Aug 8, 2006 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuPEzEoexLI

Subject: Guide to Reckoning V2 (Current 1.10) Poster: Baconn at 5/25/2006 11:30:17 AM PDT http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-paladin/1069149.htm

I didn't see you mention, crits from sitting no longer add to reckoning. 10/2/2005 7:05:02 PM PDT https://wayback.archive.org/web/20060328085254/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=446313&p=2

You don't have to take my word for it though, as the precedent has already been established by the LH Devs with the case in point over Judgement stacking.

Even though I had actual Vanilla era proof from patch 1.8 literally detailing verbatim that Judgement stacking was Blizzlike, because other "special" people said that because it wasn't coroborated by anything else closer to 1.12.1 then it had to be nerfed.

TLDR - the evidence that is CLOSEST timeline wise to 1.12.1 wins above all else.

7Oct 13 2005 at 12:31 PMRating: Decent

Cathela Scholar ** 961 posts Quote: Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn't have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot. http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=243&mid=11287757594799940

-Judgement of the Crusader: It is no longer possible to have icons for two different ranks of Judgment of the Crusader appear at the same time when judged by multiple Paladins. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/patch-notes/2-4-0

[theloras]

It is also worth noting that other than the original Paladin revamp in patch 1.9, the most significant Paladin bug fix/buff patch during Vanilla was Patch 1.11.0:

Patch 1.11.0 (20-Jun-2006): Clarified tooltip. Seal of Command critical hits can now trigger Vengeance. Since Patch 1.11, Seal of Command proc will have approximately 0.5 second delay before the animation begins and the Holy damage is incurred, instead of having the proc occur instantly with the swing of the attack. This is considered a good change, since if the normal swing is a critical strike and Vengeance is triggered, the Seal of Command proc will be affected by the buff. http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Seal_of_Command_(old)

The significance of the change/buff above to Seal of Command and it gaining the 0.5 second delay was that it also allowed Seal Twisting to be possible. Of course that wasn't discovered until TBC by Slayton but the buff in patch 1.11.0 is what allowed it to be possible in the first place.

TLDR - who knows, maybe Blizzard also shadow buffed Reckoning at the same time in Patch 1.11.0 since they were already buffing the class to begin with - many changes during the course of the game never made it to patch notes and likewise many patch notes contained incorrect information that were only able to be later refuted:

Seal of Command - The damage effects can now be resisted instead of dodged, blocked, or parried. http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.3.0

Poster: motive at 3/15/2005 3:36:38 PM PST Subject: Re: Seal of Command change After considering the posts in this thread we have decided to back this change out of patch 1.3.0 completely and re-evaluate the math behind this before making any further changes.

This has mainly been decided because depending on how much crit% the Paladin has with melee vs. spells, this change would have been either a buff or a nerf to the skill:

Based on the change that was made (changing the defense category against the skill from melee to magic), this would have increased the Paladin's DPS by 16%. This is based on the notion that chance to resist against even con is 4% as opposed to about 20% chance to Dodge/Block/Parry/Miss. As a result, if a Paladin had less than a 20% crit chance to spells, this would have been a buff to the skill.

On the other hand, changing the defense category from melee to magic also affected crit damage. Spells cause 50% more damage and melee causes 100% more damage. As a result, Paladins that had a higher than 20% crit chance to spells would have considered this change a nerf to the skill.

Since some Paladins have managed to reach this level of spell crit% and have specifically specced themselves this way, we have decided not to change this for patch 1.3.0.

Thanks to you all for the feedback on this change. http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-realm-test/391.htm

[theloras]

here is a case in point https://github.com/LightsHope/issues/issues/735

where I had to correct yet again the automatic knee jerk reaction to ZOMG OFFICIAL WOW PATCH NOTES not telling the whole story...

[GarKnu]

TLDR - the evidence that is CLOSEST timeline wise to 1.12.1 wins above all else.

I agree with that. Thing is, you believe that this video is evidence in your favor when in reality it's quite the opposite.

As I asked for earlier, you should find a source that contradicts the following statements:

• Charges will not generate off auto attacks or npc attacks by trying to sit down and force a crit
• I didn't see you mention, crits from sitting no longer add to reckoning.

[Seberats]

So this guy made a video to show it was possible to charge reckoning by sitting against a mob (the video purpose is already a proof). 1) He is critted 7 times for 13 attempts. Conclusion: sitting forces crit (if you do it well). 2) He gain 4 charges from those 7 crits. Conclusion: He isn't 5/5 recknoning. If sitting didn't give charges, why the fuck is he getting charges? Just look the first charge, this is clear evidence.

[banallwowbots]

Updated my first post. See Update 1, Update 2 and Update 3.

[banallwowbots]

If sitting didn't give charges, why the fuck is he getting charges?

He's receiving crits while standing?

[theloras]

@GarKnu - if he was using a /sit macro instead of mashing his X button you would have hard proof for your case. However, pressing X repeatedly causes you to sit and then immediately stand back up.

I can't stress how extremely important this is because you have to be 100% completely seated when the enemy melee attack lands in order for it to be 100% guaranteed as a critical strike against you.

You CANNOT be in the process of standing back up whatsoever as is what happens by mashing the X button. It is clearly visible in the video as you watch the animation - you clearly see him sit momentarily but then stand right back up repeatedly.

What makes this video so important in the grand scheme of things is that not only is it from actual retail vanilla and is the closest to 1.12.1 but Gankadin literally provides a step by step instructional video on how to produce the mechanics.

Why would anyone otherwise go to the trouble of producing such an instructional video with their own graphics?

@banallwowbots re: Upade 3: As Garknu said in a post below; you should find a source (between 1.10 and 1.12.1) that contradicts this blue post.

As I said yesterday, I don't have to provide anything - the onus is on YOU to find evidence that was published at a later date than Aug 8, 2006 in order to refute the video. This is the standard of proof set by the Lightshope Devs for any change to the game on either a buff or nerf.

I had 3rd party confirmation that Judgement stacking was 100% Blizzlike in patch 1.8 but they nerfed it because it could not be corroborated post patch 1.9.

[theloras]

The reality is that we won't know for sure either for or against this until Classic comes out.

As I said to @banallwowbots in the Paladin discord channel, you guys may in fact end up being right but the burden of proof in the evidence at hand says otherwise. I, myself never played RECK spec back on Vanilla so I do not have any personal experience to call on.

All I can say is that the Vanilla era evidence that is closest to 1.12.1 suggests that forcing crits via X or a /sit macro did in fact generate RECK charges.

[cudderi]

Interesting comment on the thread "Guide to Reckoning V2 (Current 1.10)": "sitting down DOES store a charge for reckoning from npc auto attacks what you have to do is stand up right as they are about to connect and you will store a charge. i used to run around orgrimmar and get charges off creeps and then unload on unwary clothie."

However, could it be possible that the commenter did just that, but got crit by the base 5% chance, and thought sitting helped getting the reck up?

Link to thread: https://wayback.archive.org/web/20060719084043/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com:80/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=1069149&p=1&tmp=1#post1069149

(This might be unrelated, but here is a video by the original poster of the thread "Guide to Reckoning". I dont have a WCM account to see the video. http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=7698)

[banallwowbots]

I stand corrected. It was indeed possible to abuse this due to server lag in retail vanilla. Dear LH developers, you don't need to "fix" this!

From the author of Guide to Reckoning V2 (Current 1.10):

Got linked over to this post from I assume Theloras, and I can shed a little light on Reckoning. Some of the info from my 14 year old guide was a little out-of-date: IIRC when the sticky dropped I stopped updating the guide.

Normally if you're sitting down you would not get Reckoning charges from auto-attacks. However, you could gain charges from random NPCs by constantly sitting and standing up due to server lag: mob would try to attack you as your were sitting, so it'd be a forced crit. However, if you stood up just as you were getting hit, the server would see you as if you were standing and get a Reckoning charge. I learned this by chance after showing a buddy of mine how Reckoning worked, and he just did some guess-work, pulled a scorpion outside of Gadgetzon, got 4 charges and then went and one-shot a level 42 guy in town. He would do this for hours and it was a masterpiece to watch.

I also assume this is the trick the rogue and paladin used to get enough charges to one-shot Kazzak that one time.

As for mounting: if one had 4 Reckoning charges and then mounted--they're gone. However, one could Acquire Reckoning charges while mounted and retain them after dismounting. I would (ab)use this to charge into Orgrimmar/Grom'gol/Cenarion Hold and bomb someone before the guards/duelers would kill me.

Thanks for the blast from the past. And my opinion is if it's going to be Classic WoW, "fixing" this would be kind of detracting from the original game imo.

It was me asking if he could shred some insights regarding this.

That beeing said, I still believe this is a bug/exploit that Blizzard might fix once Classic comes out. Time will tell.

@Theloras I apologize for beeing stubborn on this matter. Though, I still believe this never was intended by Blizzard in retail vanilla. Hopefully we both learned something from this, atleast I did. I know for a fact that I can be stubborn sometimes, but damn Theloras, you are one hell of a stubborn 43-year-old millionaire. It's like discussing with an infinite loop

Random rand = new Random();
var isThelorasStubborn = true;
var thelorasEvidences = new List<string>{"sit macro", "Smash X button", "<input unrelated source-link>", "Gankadin closest evidence"};
while (isThelorasStubborn)
{
    int index = rand.Next(thelorasEvidences.Count);
    System.Console.WriteLine(thelorasEvidences[index]); 
}

[Seberats]

@banallwowbots this is honest. Ty

[theloras]

+1 @banallwowbots - even I got things wrong from time to time so it's all good

I know for a fact that I can be stubborn sometimes, but damn Theloras, you are one hell of a stubborn 43-year-old millionaire.

I take that as high praise :)

But you have to understand where it all comes from and the literal YEARS of LOLRET and STFU AND HEAL ME NUB garbage that I've had to push through from server to server to server.

But the promised land is within reach at long last and with the launch of Classic we will all finally be able to play an authentic Vanilla WoW experience!

PS here is the link to Baconn's reply to the thread on the official Classic forums:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767637953?page=2#post-38

[theloras]

thanks to Holyfrog - he found another Vanilla era Reck Bomb video showing a Paladin mashing his X button and gaining Reck charges:

Murtaughs Reckoning HQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtbzSv5MT3s

originally published on warcraft movies on 2006-02-24 https://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=15930