[BUG n°1206635] Two trains on the same track in opposite drection

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1206635

Property	Value
Reported by	David Robinson (h5djr)
Date reported	Tue, 30 Jul 2013 18:36:12 GMT
Tags	ai, signals

I am using v1676 with a copy of SimTrain.ch's Glacier Express. When I use it in manual mode I can get all the signalling to allow me to pass although the Red aspect does not always change to green. But when I get a certain section where there is a long passing loop and there is already a another train in that loop. I have tried changing the points to allow me to take the other side of the loop but nothing seems to happen. I have tried both G and the ALT and mouse but neither work. This means I cannot get any further on this scenario.

The scenerio in use the the Heidi Express between Begun station and Preda in the long looks before Preda station. The trains end up face to face in the Right hand loop. If I could change the points I would direct my ttain into the Left hand loop.

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/comments/1

Property	Value
Posted by	Rippstein (ch-signale)
Date posted	Wed, 31 Jul 2013 07:31:47 GMT

I think it is not a bug? when you pass a red signal the mode will change from MANUAL to Out Of Control. you will enter in the path of a KI-Train. This train will stop When you are standing before the KI-Train the point is part of the path of this KI-Train, so you can't switch this point. Also in MANUAL-Mode you have to wait until the KI-Train has passed an cleared the track. Only in explorer-activity you can roll as you like.

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/comments/2

Property	Value
Posted by	David Robinson (h5djr)
Date posted	Wed, 31 Jul 2013 08:07:35 GMT

Hi and thanks for the reply.

If it is not a bug what am I doing wrong. I'm on a single track section of the route and I come to a signal showing Red. I am already in Manual mode. I stop at the signal and press the Tab key to change the signal but nothing happens. I also press G to change to point ahead as I can see the other train coming towards me in one side of the loop. When I move slowly forward and arrive at the point my train appears as it going to go into the clear side of the loop but then actually goes into the same track as the train coming in the opposite direction and we meet face to face.

Regards

David Robinson

-----Original Message----- From:

I think it is not a bug? when you pass a red signal the mode will change from MANUAL to Out Of Control. you will enter in the path of a KI-Train. This train will stop When you are standing before the KI-Train the point is part of the path of this KI-Train, so you can't switch this point. Also in MANUAL-Mode you have to wait until the KI-Train has passed an cleared the track. Only in explorer-activity you can roll as you like.

-- You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug report. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1206635

Title: Two trains on the same track in opposite drection

Status in Open Rails Tracker: New

Bug description: I am using v1676 with a copy of SimTrain.ch's Glacier Express. When I use it in manual mode I can get all the signalling to allow me to pass although the Red aspect does not always change to green. But when I get a certain section where there is a long passing loop and there is already a another train in that loop. I have tried changing the points to allow me to take the other side of the loop but nothing seems to happen. I have tried both G and the ALT and mouse but neither work. This means I cannot get any further on this scenario.

The scenerio in use the the Heidi Express between Begun station and Preda in the long looks before Preda station. The trains end up face to face in the Right hand loop. If I could change the points I would direct my ttain into the Left hand loop.

To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/+subscriptions

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/comments/3

Property	Value
Posted by	Rippstein (ch-signale)
Date posted	Fri, 02 Aug 2013 09:47:51 GMT

When you activate Ctrl+Alt+F11, you can watch the states of the signals, and to which train belong which part of the tracks. So perhaps you can see to which train belong the switch between your train and the KI-Train. If it belong to the KI-Train that can be the reason why you can't turn this switch. With some screenshots with Signal- and Track-Information you can perhaps also better describe the Problem

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/comments/4

Property	Value
Posted by	David Robinson (h5djr)
Date posted	Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:50:57 GMT

Hi

I have just tried using Ctrl-Alt-F11 and nothing happens. I have also tried this same route in MSTS and it works as it should with my train moving into the empty track of the loop. Using the AE Editor it shows the route for my train coloured Green and ahain taking the empty track of the loop. I have also just published another bug report as exactly the same thing happens with another activity in this same package. Again it works as it should in MSTS.

David

-----Original Message----- From:

When you activate Ctrl+Alt+F11, you can watch the states of the signals, and to which train belong which part of the tracks. So perhaps you can see to which train belong the switch between your train and the KI-Train. If it belong to the KI-Train that can be the reason why you can't turn this switch. With some screenshots with Signal- and Track-Information you can perhaps also better describe the Problem

-- You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug report. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1206635

Title: Two trains on the same track in opposite drection

Status in Open Rails Tracker: New

Bug description: I am using v1676 with a copy of SimTrain.ch's Glacier Express. When I use it in manual mode I can get all the signalling to allow me to pass although the Red aspect does not always change to green. But when I get a certain section where there is a long passing loop and there is already a another train in that loop. I have tried changing the points to allow me to take the other side of the loop but nothing seems to happen. I have tried both G and the ALT and mouse but neither work. This means I cannot get any further on this scenario.

The scenerio in use the the Heidi Express between Begun station and Preda in the long looks before Preda station. The trains end up face to face in the Right hand loop. If I could change the points I would direct my ttain into the Left hand loop.

To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/+subscriptions

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/comments/5

Property	Value
Posted by	r.roeterdink (r-roeterdink)
Date posted	Mon, 05 Aug 2013 09:26:43 GMT

To get some idea of what is happening here we must start at the beginning - that is when the train is stopped for a signal which apparantly will not clear. It is at this point that a check must be made on what is happening. The best way to do this is to open the Dispatcher Hud - press CTRL-F5 repeatedly until the Dispatcher Hud is displayed. Please make and upload a screenshot when the train is stopped, showing both the Dispatcher Hud and Track Monitor Window.

DO NOT CHANGE THE TRAIN TO MANUAL MODE!!!

Changing to Manual Mode will not help the situation - in fact, it will make it worse, for in Manual Mode, the deadlock protection is switched off. This means there is nothing to stop the AI train from reserving and moving onto the same (single line) track as the player train, which is causing the deadlock which is described above. The likely reason for the switch to be locked is that the AI train has allready reserved it's path over that switch. When a path has been cleared over a switch, that switch can no longer be set manually. At present, there is no way to resolve that situation. Work is planned to enhance the function of the dispatcher window so it could be used to resolve situations like this, but realisation of such functions is still a long way off.

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/comments/6

Property	Value
Posted by	David Robinson (h5djr)
Date posted	Mon, 05 Aug 2013 10:55:57 GMT

Hi

I have just been trying your suggestion - ie train stopped at the red signal - in Auto Mode. I have tried repeatedly pressing CTRL-F5 but cannot get the Dispatcher HUD to appear. But what did happen was the signal changed to green and I could proceed and when my train came to the loop it when into the clear track and passed the waiting train.

I tried to repeat this having saved the arrival at the signal but nothing would happen - no signal change to green. I left it for a full 5 minutes and still nothing. I thought perhaps moving a little closer to the signal may make a difference. I could see the other train was already stopped in the loop. I released the Train Brake and although I had 100% Dynamic Braking the train started to roll backwards as it was on an upward slope. I applied power and train stopped and just as it started to move forwards the signal changed to green. I repeated this a couple of times from the same saved point and the same thing happened each time. Just appling power from the stopped position did not seem to have the same effect, only letting the train roll back slightly and then applying power to move forwards would change the signal. I will now try this on the other route and see if the same thing happens

Regards

David

-----Original Message----- From:

To get some idea of what is happening here we must start at the beginning - that is when the train is stopped for a signal which apparantly will not clear. It is at this point that a check must be made on what is happening. The best way to do this is to open the Dispatcher Hud - press CTRL-F5 repeatedly until the Dispatcher Hud is displayed. Please make and upload a screenshot when the train is stopped, showing both the Dispatcher Hud and Track Monitor Window.

DO NOT CHANGE THE TRAIN TO MANUAL MODE!!!

Changing to Manual Mode will not help the situation - in fact, it will make it worse, for in Manual Mode, the deadlock protection is switched off. This means there is nothing to stop the AI train from reserving and moving onto the same (single line) track as the player train, which is causing the deadlock which is described above. The likely reason for the switch to be locked is that the AI train has allready reserved it's path over that switch. When a path has been cleared over a switch, that switch can no longer be set manually. At present, there is no way to resolve that situation. Work is planned to enhance the function of the dispatcher window so it could be used to resolve situations like this, but realisation of such functions is still a long way off.

-- You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug report. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1206635

Title: Two trains on the same track in opposite drection

Status in Open Rails Tracker: New

Bug description: I am using v1676 with a copy of SimTrain.ch's Glacier Express. When I use it in manual mode I can get all the signalling to allow me to pass although the Red aspect does not always change to green. But when I get a certain section where there is a long passing loop and there is already a another train in that loop. I have tried changing the points to allow me to take the other side of the loop but nothing seems to happen. I have tried both G and the ALT and mouse but neither work. This means I cannot get any further on this scenario.

The scenerio in use the the Heidi Express between Begun station and Preda in the long looks before Preda station. The trains end up face to face in the Right hand loop. If I could change the points I would direct my ttain into the Left hand loop.

To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/+subscriptions

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/comments/7

Property	Value
Posted by	r.roeterdink (r-roeterdink)
Date posted	Mon, 05 Aug 2013 13:09:20 GMT

Sorry - my mistake. Should be SHIFT-F5 to display dispatcher hud.

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/comments/8

Property	Value
Posted by	r.roeterdink (r-roeterdink)
Date posted	Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:48:26 GMT

Thanks for the screenshots. The situation is exactly as I thought it would be.

In both cases, the AI train was started before the player train, and the AI train has allready cleared its path beyond the next loop, into the section where the player train starts. So, there is an unescapable deadlock right from the moment the player train is started. In the first picture it is train 54 which is blocking the way forward, in the second it is train 11.

This is not a bug, but the result of slightly different ways in which OR processes AI trains and signal logic in comparison with MSTS. In these cases in particular, MSTS would give priority to the player train, but OR treats all trains equal.

The way out of this is to start the AI trains later, or further away. The second situation might be difficult to resolve as the trains start too close to each other, and each starts right in the path of the other. Such situations are best avoided by starting trains in loops and not on single track sections, as is the case here.

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/comments/9

Property	Value
Posted by	David Robinson (h5djr)
Date posted	Mon, 05 Aug 2013 15:04:47 GMT

Hi again

Thanks for that information.

Is there any way I can control the times the AI trains start?

The whole of both lines is single track with only the stations having passing loops. The extra loop on the train 54 route was put in as a long loop to allow trains to pass before reaching Preda station and the Alubla tunnel, which is also single track. Both trains start in a station with multiple loops but soon go into single track. Would arriving at the signal quicker help or is the AI train's position related to the player train's position.

Thanks

David

-----Original Message----- From:

Thanks for the screenshots. The situation is exactly as I thought it would be.

In both cases, the AI train was started before the player train, and the AI train has allready cleared its path beyond the next loop, into the section where the player train starts. So, there is an unescapable deadlock right from the moment the player train is started. In the first picture it is train 54 which is blocking the way forward, in the second it is train 11.

This is not a bug, but the result of slightly different ways in which OR processes AI trains and signal logic in comparison with MSTS. In these cases in particular, MSTS would give priority to the player train, but OR treats all trains equal.

The way out of this is to start the AI trains later, or further away. The second situation might be difficult to resolve as the trains start too close to each other, and each starts right in the path of the other. Such situations are best avoided by starting trains in loops and not on single track sections, as is the case here.

-- You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug report. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1206635

Title: Two trains on the same track in opposite drection

Status in Open Rails Tracker: New

Bug description: I am using v1676 with a copy of SimTrain.ch's Glacier Express. When I use it in manual mode I can get all the signalling to allow me to pass although the Red aspect does not always change to green. But when I get a certain section where there is a long passing loop and there is already a another train in that loop. I have tried changing the points to allow me to take the other side of the loop but nothing seems to happen. I have tried both G and the ALT and mouse but neither work. This means I cannot get any further on this scenario.

The scenerio in use the the Heidi Express between Begun station and Preda in the long looks before Preda station. The trains end up face to face in the Right hand loop. If I could change the points I would direct my ttain into the Left hand loop.

To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/+subscriptions

[Looky1173]

Imported from https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1206635/comments/10

Property	Value
Posted by	r.roeterdink (r-roeterdink)
Date posted	Tue, 06 Aug 2013 22:41:26 GMT

Changes to activities can, as yet, only be made using MSTS Activity Editor. As for the starting points of the trains : the player train in the top picture started some distance back, in the station area as you describe. But it seems to me that the AI train terminates on the single track section - and it is that which is causing the problem. If the AI train terminated on another track in the station area where the player train starts, the deadlock processing would have kicked in and would have held the second train (which would have been the player train) from getting out onto the single track section. In the lower picture, the player train faces the signal but has covered 0m distance - so this is right at the beginning of the player train's path, so this train clearly starts on the single track section. Changing both player and AI trains path such that begin and end are in loops or platforms and not on single track sections for all trains would be a good alternative to changing the times.