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MarlinFirmware / Marlin

Marlin is an optimized firmware for RepRap 3D printers based on the Arduino platform. Many commercial 3D printers come with Marlin installed. Check with your vendor if you need source code for your specific machine.
https://marlinfw.org
GNU General Public License v3.0
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Feature: Movable extruder plate for delta printer #2896

Closed fraternl closed 8 years ago

fraternl commented 8 years ago

My apologies beforehand if this is not the place to ask, but I wouldn't know where....

I have an idea.... I don't know why it's not done already... Maybe it's just not a good idea. I'm quite new to 3D printers and that's why I'm a bit uncertain... But just maybe it is a good idea.....

When I look at delta printers most of them don't have a direct drive, but use bowden. This is done to reduce the weight. When these printers are high this means long bowdens and this has a negative impact on the E-control. I thought of a moving extruder-plate that would "hover" at a constant height above the print head keeping the distance between the extruders and the printer more or less the same. The bowdens can then be much shorter.

Has this been done before and is it a good idea? Does Marlin already have a way to drive this extruder-plate? Would the team be willing to make such an enhancement if it doesn't exist yet?

KiteLab commented 8 years ago

How about to mount the extruder-motor on one of the already existent tower sliders? The distance to the effector would always be constant and no software extension is needed.

Wackerbarth commented 8 years ago

That's an interesting concept. I'm not sure how you would accomplish this, mechanically, without a significant increase in the cost and size of the overall printer. Depending on the number of additional actuators involved, it might, or might not, be within the scope of the capabilities of a machine driven by this firmware. I think that we would need much more detail of the mechanism to determine how we might control it.

Wackerbarth commented 8 years ago

@Kitelab -- The purpose of the Bowden Tube feed is to reduce the mass that moves with the head movement. Any "solution" that uses the existing actuators to move the extruder motor just defeats that aspect of the Bowden Tube design.

fraternl commented 8 years ago

True... Thought of that too, but then the weight of the extruders would have an impact on the movement of the print head. It would of course be less....

KiteLab commented 8 years ago

You'd only need one stronger stepper

fraternl commented 8 years ago

Can I conclude that the idea is original (well, it is original as no-one told me)? I mean.. hasn't it been done before? The plate should just follow layer height and the offset to the printer could just be mechanically solved. The Z-motor could be on the same plate as the extruder motors.

Wackerbarth commented 8 years ago

"Stronger" actuators only marginally addresses the issue of inertia. You also have issues with the elasticity of the drive mechanism, etc. In general, I don't think that your approach would be successful.

fraternl commented 8 years ago

"Stronger" actuators only marginally addresses the issue of inertia. You also have issues with the elasticity of the drive mechanism, etc. In general, I don't think that your approach would be successful.

@Wackerbarth you are commenting on Kitelab, not on me, are you?

KiteLab commented 8 years ago

Because of the 4-axis limit in Marlin a 4th tower is difficult.

Wackerbarth commented 8 years ago

@fraternl -- You need to figure out how you would suspend this platform within the framework. Off hand, I don't see how you can do so without interfering with the head suspension. (My first remark was addressed to your original proposal. The rest, prior to this one, were addressing @KiteLab)

fraternl commented 8 years ago

The Z-height is there....

fraternl commented 8 years ago

But I still don't have a confirmation if the concept of it is a good idea. I can read between the lines that you think it is. The implementation of it is only interesting if there is something to gain.

It's not that I want it in there this week ;-)

Wackerbarth commented 8 years ago

@fraternl -- On the contrary, I have serious questions about the feasibility of the concept from a mechanical perspective -- totally ignoring whether the existing Marlin could be adapted to become its controller.

brainscan commented 8 years ago

What about using mutley's flexi drive, light as a Bowden but still direct drive.

Sent from my iPhone

On 9 Jan 2016, at 11:40, Richard Wackerbarth notifications@github.com wrote:

@fraternl -- On the contrary, I have serious questions about the feasibility of the concept from a mechanical perspective -- totally ignoring whether the existing Marlin could be adapted to become its controller.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

fraternl commented 8 years ago

But that still is the implementation (this time mechanically).... I also want some confirmation if there is something to gain in having a reasonably short bowden that goes almost vertically to the print head.... One that follows the height of the print head...

@brainscan I already ordered a Flex3drive, but that also has its movement limits. And is not cheap if you want 3 filaments

KiteLab commented 8 years ago

Theoretically a good idea, but if the afford/win ratio can be good is questionable.and totally depends on the implementation. A horizontal direction of the bowden tube is a bad idea because the material flow then has a 90° angle.

fraternl commented 8 years ago

Maybe it should be made autonomous... completely outside of the print controller....

fraternl commented 8 years ago

@KiteLab Of course the distance should be that far that the angle never exceeds a certain limit....

KiteLab commented 8 years ago

Maybe it should be made autonomous... completely outside of the print controller....

Good luck while homing/probing/manual_z-moves.

fraternl commented 8 years ago

Oh... and the extruders could be in a gimbal always "looking" at the print head

KiteLab commented 8 years ago

Keep win/afford in mind.

KiteLab commented 8 years ago

For a delta system with 3 or more extruders it could make sense to move the bed instead of the effector. (seen at MakerFaire 2015 Honnover) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDhpmgzuWzA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TowEwmDuHLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8plg0Hx-eQ Move the lowest mass.

fraternl commented 8 years ago

That solves the extruder problem, but it does introduce a new one.... The object you're printing gets heavier and heavier..... An Eiffeltower will probably print fine, but other objects can get problematic, me think....

It seems as someone thought of this before.... It's called a "flying extruder" Someone posted this link after I suggested this on facebook. I haven't read it yet:

http://www.fabbaloo.com/blog/2015/11/15/the-flying-extruder-the-best-of-bowden-and-direct-3d-printer-extruders

fraternl commented 8 years ago

And a mechanical one exists as well.... http://imgur.com/0zNnNo7

I only have that clip, but I think they used strong rubber bands.... It could also be a nice combo with a Flex3drive....

no comments anymore?

thinkyhead commented 8 years ago

a "flying extruder"

I saw one of those at a user group meeting in Seattle. It works!

The idea of a moving extruder mount is interesting. It would be straightforward to add code for it if you needed it for a custom delta. But it's not going to end up as a standard feature in Marlin until there's actual hardware and more people are using it.

github-actions[bot] commented 2 years ago

This issue has been automatically locked since there has not been any recent activity after it was closed. Please open a new issue for related bugs.