Hover vees cannot pass over submerged woods hexes when the depth of water exceeeds the height of the woods

[VampireSeraphin]

https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T1DCN26SY-F33F33SFL/pasted_image_at_2016_11_16_01_37_pm.png

HoveroverSunkentrees.sav.gz

Hover vees cannot pass over submerged woods hexes when the depth of water exceeeds the height of the woods. In this image I have depth 3 water over woods, which will give a clearance of 1 elevation. However, the hover apc is still prohibited.

I have not checked yet, but this may also apply to watercraft & submarines.

[Dylan-M]

Due to the very edge case nature of this bug, marking it post-stable

[VampireSeraphin]

It occurs to me that this may apply to any prohibited terrain covered by water including buildings, magma, and perhaps others.

[pheonixstorm]

The problem here is water and woods are both base terrains and should not coexist. Was this a generated map or something someone made?

[Akjosch]

I like to use water:0;woods:1 for mangrove ...

[arlith]

Pretty sure there aren't any rules saying that water and woods can't be in the same hex. it's just that MM was never really written with that in mind.

[mkerensky]

This issue has been around for quite a while. Buildings don't actually count as being underwater - I tried to build an underwater base and use SRTorpedo turrets in the attached board file. I also like to combine woods and water for mangroves, kelp forests or even a dammed river valley. The attached files might help with testing... Water Maps.zip

[VampireSeraphin]

I built this map for a river at high water scenario.

[pheonixstorm]

No rules I have ever seen, just seems to be implied though in TO that base terrain, with the exception of buildings, shouldn't stack. Though maybe water is another exception or should be.

[VampireSeraphin]

I can think of reasonable reasons for stacking most terrain types, especially water (flood), magma (swallowing buildings), and woods (green house).

[pheonixstorm]

I stand (partially) corrected. TO p29

Unless specifically noted otherwise under Base Terrain Types (see p. 30), no two base terrain types can be found in the same hex.

This could make a good rules question since water covers a hex. Unless, that is, the water entry says NO

[arlith]

I was completely unaware of these rules in TO, that's good to know.

[arlith]

According to those rules, there are actually quite severe restrictions that we don't apply, and probably should. That being said, water is clearly listed as a base terrain, and the rules clearly say that base terrains cannot be combined, so, in theory, you cannot combine water with woods or buildings or any other base terrain.

[pheonixstorm]

Does the water entry say that it cannot support another base terrain type? So far only buildings can support another base terrain, but I haven't fully read over that section.

[VampireSeraphin]

According to those rules, there are actually quite severe restrictions that we don't apply, and probably should. That being said, water is clearly listed as a base terrain, and the rules clearly say that base terrains cannot be combined, so, in theory, you cannot combine water with woods or buildings or any other base terrain.

That's silly. We've got canon underwater bases in the universe and water cannot be combined with other types of terrain? Come on cgl start making sense.

[pheonixstorm]

It can be combined with buildings. Not likely anything else though. Like I said water may be a base terrain like buildings, able to support a second base terrain but you would have to read the rules covering it and probably get a rules clarification on the BT forums.

[VampireSeraphin]

I think this is one case where MM should ignore the rules (normally bad practice) because you can't easily add this as an option in MM like you normally would. Unless perhaps you intend to add an "allow illegal maps" option, which seems like opening a can of all kinds of worms because it would mean turning off the terrain validator that was just built. You'd end up with people filing bugs because they added woods:-1 or some such.

Canon rules on terrain mixing is going to effect how maps are made and built, including legacy maps. Generally, most players won't be interacting with those things directly. The existing rules clearly ignore many kinds of interesting extreme terrain (flooded forests, magma vents underwater, etc...). MM would benefit from being more flexible and using rules based on real life feasibility instead.

[arlith]

Another issue is that, the rules don't cover how these interactions should take place. Your example of completely submerged woods. Technically, according to the rules as written, MM is doing the right behavior as is. The hex is considered a "woods" hex because it has woods in it. Hover vehicles cannot enter woods hexes. You're applying common sense to BattleTech, which is a classic recipe for disaster.

This also illustrates why I am in favor of implementing the TO rules. By supporting these disallowed terrain combinations, we essentially have to come up with our own rules for how to handle this. This represents significant additional effort. I think that the project is better off taking the easier approach and supporting other, more important, issues.

[BLOODWOLF333]

Base Terrain: Base terrain represents the underlying terrain of a battlefield; the complete rules for base terrain start on p. 30. Every hex on every mapsheet must consist of a base terrain type as shown on the Expanded Movement Costs and Planetary Conditions Tables. As noted above, the Base Terrain portion of the Expanded Movement Costs and Planetary Conditions Table includes those terrain types described in detail in TW, as well as all new base terrain types. Unless specifically noted otherwise under Base Terrain Types (see p. 30), no two base terrain types can be found in the same hex.

So, no two base terrains can stack +buildings and heavy industrial zones on next page (pg31)

Terrain Modifications: Terrain modifications represent specific additions to base terrain and are applied on a hex-by hex basis (see the Expanded Movement Costs and Planetary Conditions Tables, p. 32, for a complete list of terrain modifications); the complete rules for terrain modifications start on p. 40. Page 49 of Total Warfare notes that when multiple terrain types are found in the same hex, all appropriate modifiers are cumulative. That rule applies here as well. When base terrain and terrain modifications appear in the same hex, all appropriate modifiers are cumulative.

Terrain modifications can stack

[VampireSeraphin]

I don't see swamp anywhere on these tables, so I think some terrain types are missing here.

[arlith]

Swamp is a terrain modification on TO pg 35. It's in the table on the page after the last page BW posted.

Personally, I think it's unfortunate that swamp is a terrain modification and not a base terrain, but those are the rules.