Will it have a new look and buttons？

[cw-taotao]

Hi, will you be adding a d-pad on the left side of the front and shoulder buttons on the top in the future? It's like a “padbox”, but with the main buttons on the back, and not so big, which I feel is more in line with the gamepad.

[MerlinDesigns]

Hi!

A D-Pad might possibly become a thing either in a new version or a new controller (I’m working on an evolution of this but I’m not sure how long that’ll take and it will change the shape a bit).

As of now, shoulder buttons are not planned. I don’t think that would work well with using the buttons on the bottom and I feel like there are plenty of easily accessible buttons. Feel free to modify the design and try it out, though! Let me know how it’s working.

[cw-taotao]

I may not have made myself clear, but what I was trying to say is that adding a D-Pad to the left thumb of the “em-controller” and leaving the front and back of the right hand layout unchanged would make it more like a regular fighting game controller, and reduce the amount of manipulation the right thumb has to do. Is it possible to add a Type C port housing in a later version, I can get a Type C port 3rd party Raspberry Pi Pico here. Sorry, I'd like to try to modify the model, but I don't have a 3d printer for trial and error.

[MerlinDesigns]

adding a D-Pad to the left thumb of the “em-controller” and leaving the front and back of the right hand layout unchanged would make it more like a regular fighting game

Agreed! I just haven’t sat down and done any D-Pad design yet. Maybe the Padbox has some good clues how to do it right. Is their D-Pad nice?

and reduce the amount of manipulation the right thumb has to do.

You’ve kind of lost me there. What amount of manipulation does the right thumb have to do other than press two buttons?

Is it possible to add a Type C port housing in a later version, I can get a Type C port 3rd party Raspberry Pi Pico here.

Yes that should be pretty easy if the Pico clone is pretty much identical other than the port. Specifically, if the mounting holes and dimensions are the same. Do you have a link to the one you are talking about?

Are you planning on printing one using a print service?

[cw-taotao]

Is their D-Pad nice?

I don't own a Padbox because both the Padbox and the Em-controller are things I didn't even know existed until I saw them on a video on the internet. I've used a gamepad, an arcade joystick, and a regular Hitbox to play Street Fighter 6, and ultimately found the gamepad to be the most comfortable to play with, and as you said, no need to have the controls in your lap to lounge on the couch and play. The gamepad I'm using right now, is similar to one called the Victrix Pro BFG gamepad, with a diamond shaped D-pad, which I feel works well, and rarely misses diagonal triggers than the regular D-pad.

and reduce the amount of manipulation the right thumb has to do. You’ve kind of lost me there. What amount of manipulation does the right thumb have to do other than press two buttons?

What I mean is that the layout of the em-controller right hand side is a good solution to the problem of the right thumb needing to operate multiple buttons. Because nowadays fighting game controllers have 6 buttons on the right hand side, and all 6 buttons need to be operated by the right thumb.

Pico clone

Everything is the same except for the type c connector and the power supply being reduced from 800 mAh to 500 mAh. I purchased it from taobao.com.

Are you planning on printing one using a print service?

Yes, I'm still on the fence, I have all the button axes, but the current Em-controller operation reversed buttons seem a bit counter-intuitive to me, the game's left and right movement corresponds to the Em-controller's buttons being up and down.

[MerlinDesigns]

I don't own a Padbox because both the Padbox and the Em-controller are things I didn't even know existed until I saw them on a video on the internet.

Ah cool. I know the feeling. What video did you see?

What I mean is that the layout of the em-controller right hand side is a good solution to the problem of the right thumb needing to operate multiple buttons.

Oh yeah I get what you mean now.

Everything is the same except for the type c connector

Yeah it mostly looks identical! It’s missing the screw holes around the connector but it should still be fine. If you decide you want to try the Em the way it is I wouldn’t mind quickly changing the port in the shell for you.

the current Em-controller operation reversed buttons seem a bit counter-intuitive to me, the game's left and right movement corresponds to the Em-controller's buttons being up and down.

I totally understand that that seems weird at first and it does take a bit of getting used to. The good thing is: it’s a rotated version of the typical leverless layout but you still use the exact same fingers. That is deliberate to make adjusting between the two easier and because you can easily use your three fingers for the directions. But if it doesn’t make sense, you can always rebind the buttons to something that works for you in the webconfig tool.

[cw-taotao]

What video did you see?

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1wkpCeCEEy/ https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1UCHpetExh/ https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1LUt4eAEn9/

Thank you very much, but I'm more used to the D-pad input than the hitbox type of directional input, so I'm looking forward to your d-pad version of the em-controller, and maybe keep the em-controller's current buttons and make the position of the 2 buttons for the left thumb the D-pad, and then have them shifted down! . I found some pictures of the gamepad, this is a picture of its D-pad, I feel its D-pad is better, it states that it is using 60gf microswitches, hopefully this will help you a little bit in making a D-pad in the future.

[MerlinDesigns]

Thank you very much for sharing those videos with me. It’s very exciting to see other people try it out or be excited with it! This really made my day. Due to language reasons, I had a hard time understanding most of it but it was still exciting to see someone so far away having made the controller. Please let me know if they had any insightful feedback.

Also, thank you for sharing the pictures of the D-Pad. That’s very interesting!

[cw-taotao]

Neither the author nor the audience had any particular feedback, all of which was to say that the buttons for controlling direction were a bit counter-intuitive and took time to get used to,But it is very interesting design!

Comments from the video: Some people say the shape is odd and that it can be tiring to hold. Some people expressed interest and were ready to go make one. Some said they wanted a version of the Padbox+Em-cotroller combo, i.e. an Em-controller with a D-pad and shoulder buttons.

The Em-Controller is a great project, looking forward to it's subsequent improvements, thanks for creating it. I'm also going to go ahead and print and build an Em-controller, because the gamepad I'm using now has a damaged D-pad on it, and the lifespan of this thing is way too short.

[cw-taotao]

15x_ Kailh Choc v1 switches (I use 5x nocturnal and 10x Twilight

Are the 10 Twilight: Linear / 35g here mounted on the back? The webstore also allows you to purchase Kailh linear button bodies with different operating forces, such as 25g, 40g, and 50g. Is it recommended to use 20g on the front and 35g on the back? I want keys that are more comfortable to press, but won't be easily triggered by mistake.

I would like to ask what is the best material to recommend for printing?Is Petg or resin ok?

[MerlinDesigns]

Your button choices are up to you and the controller uses hotswap sockets so you can change them.

I like the listed configuration as they are quiet and need little force. I have the 5 nocturnal (20g) switches for the 5 movement buttons (the left side back buttons and the upper left inner button ) as I like these being easy to trigger. The 10 twilight (35g) switches are used for all other buttons (ignoring the menu buttons).

That is my personal preference though and that is due to taste and the desire for the presses to be quiet. I think you can easily go for heavier force switches or even clicky ones. I haven’t experimented extensively. Other choc V1 switches also might be cheaper. The quiet ones come at a premium.

Choc V2 switches might also work but that’s currently unconfirmed and you’d need new button caps. I was meaning to try that.

I have printed the controller in PETG and PLA and my personal one is printed in PLA. The design relies on heat set inserts for the screws. If you print it in resin you’ll have to figure out how to get them into their holes. I don’t think that’ll work without adjustment. I think SLS printing might also work?

[cw-taotao]

Thank you very much for your reply and letting me know about this, I used to use the same trigger strength for all the buttons on the device I was using.

Will the new version use Choc V2 switches? I'm looking forward to the new version, and I'd like to wait to 3d print the new version if it's coming out soon, as well as wait for the Type C connector version of the case.

It seems that PETG material is more cost effective~

[cw-taotao]

Here are the official specs for the Kailh Choc V1 and Choc V2. There is a slight difference in appearance between v1 and v2, but they have the same metal contacts in the same locations and the hotswap sockets are universal.

But I can't find choc v2 keycaps that fit the em-controller.

Most of the Kailh choc V1 switches in our country have been discontinued and are no longer available for purchase, only the 20g pink and 25g purple linear switches can be purchased from the official online store.

The v2 series has a lot more options.

[MerlinDesigns]

Hey, I ordered some V2 switches recently and I’m waiting for them to arrive so I a make sure they fit and design some fitting caps.

The caps are custom because of the size (diameter and height).

Ironically, access to variants of the V2 switches beyond blue, brown, and red is more difficult than I expected where I live.

[cw-taotao]

Looking forward to the new keycaps for v2~

V2 switches in addition to the basic red, brown, blue, the last 2 years kailh and keyboard, hitbox manufacturers made 3 kinds of different trigger strength, key range switches, but their switches are not sold separately to the public.

This year, kailh modified the color of their housings to make 3 different series, and sold them in July, August, and September in our official domestic online store.

Maybe they were just released and not yet available overseas, guess that's why you can't purchase them on your end.

[MerlinDesigns]

Hey,

I just added support for V2 switches to the repository. There are separate keycaps you can print now and the change is reflected in the README. I hope you enjoy :).

Edit: Thanks for posting the data sheet for the switches. I was first trying to design them based on another design but that didn't fit at all and you saved me some time searching.

[cw-taotao]

This is really great, thank you very much for making it.

I'm trying to modify the top shell to the Type-C port holes and am going to go to a print service in the near future to get them printed.

If the Type-C holes fit, I could theoretically modify the Micro-USB holes to be a little smaller and fit a little better than they are now.

I'd also like to try to make the Em-Controller's shell a bit more rounded, right now it's a bit squared off on some sides, but I'm not very good at modeling hard surfaces, and that's going to take some time to learn.

I feel that the current logo is a bit square and a bit hard to clean up after accumulating dust, it could use a bit more gradient on the vertical surfaces and a slightly more rounded transition at the corners, but that's just a little advice of my own,maybe it's the 3d printing limitations?

[MerlinDesigns]

Can you make a sketch about which corners you want to round off?

[cw-taotao]

Right now I'm just modifying a type c connector hole, these below are just my ideas, haven't taken the time to modify them yet..

1.The corners here on the left and right sides, modifying it for little use, just to look better?

2.There is a damaged area here.

3.Lower the angle of the upper shell bevel for comfortable thumb placement? The em-controller doesn't have shoulder buttons, the main buttons are on the back, and I feel like the shape of the second picture here would be more comfortable to hold in the hand，the key switches on the back are also on the same level as the back.

4.Moving the menu button area up as a whole would make it easier for thumbs to press the menu buttons, while removing the area that needs to be raised due to lack of internal space?

5.The surface is a bit bumpy because of the messy lines, and modifying them doesn't do much good just to look good.

[cw-taotao]

I feel that the current shape of the em-controller is not suitable for holding with 4 fingers on the back at the same time, it's a little uncomfortable to hold.

Instead, it would be more comfortable to hold the em-controller with the index finger on the shoulder buttons and the other three fingers on the back, similar to the way regular gamepads are held nowadays.

Just like the picture below.

I thought of a new shape, but I don't have a 3d printer, so I made a rough new model using foam and found it a bit more comfortable to hold than the current Em-Controller,little fingers can have a dedicated button too.

Kind of like a gaming handheld shape, but with a little tilt on the back.

[MerlinDesigns]

Oh cool! Glad to see you out so much thought into this thing!

I’ll address some of the points you’ve made. Not to dissuade you from anything, just to add some context from development:

1. Yeah those bother me too. I haven’t been able to easily fix those in FreeCAD and it’s largely a limitation of my skill in modeling and a proper CAD tool not being the right choice for the outer shell to begin with. You would usually want something with more Freeform editing of shapes.
2. This is an artifact of FreeCAD chamfers and prints clean
3. I think it’s nice if you experiment with the angle but I like the existing one. I added it the way u did for a) looks but more importantly for b) space for the uhh.. fleshy bit that connects the thumb to the hand.. to have space when gripping the controller. For me the angle is great but I probably also don’t have the most representative hands
4. That’s a good idea and I don’t remember why I didn’t do that. I think I was afraid they’d be in the way? The bump on top emerged later in development because I had to redesign the menu buttons and ran out of space
5. The bumpy surface is an artifact of the export but shouldn’t be visible in a print

I want to encourage you to experiment with new shapes for this approach to controllers! I iterated for a while to get to the current version and it’s largely based on my preferences of course.

One word of caution, however: in my experience using a controller with shoulder buttons and back buttons extensively, I noticed some significant strain on my fingers because they were stretched apart a fair bit. That is mostly from using the Steam Deck as an early proof-of-concept (I used the 4 back buttons for directional inputs in SF6). This obviously be partially a problem with the weight or layout of the SD but consider well how far you have to stretch your fingers when you do your proposed way of holding.

In my opinion from using the controller for a while, I miss an additional way of supporting it when playing long sessions. In my opinion, that is solved by providing space for the pinkies to hold it. I made a new prototype that also improves on printability and reduces the overall sizes and complexity a bit. Here’s a foto for inspiration:

[cw-taotao]

One word of caution, however: in my experience using a controller with shoulder buttons and back buttons extensively, I noticed some significant strain on my fingers because they were stretched apart a fair bit. That is mostly from using the Steam Deck as an early proof-of-concept (I used the 4 back buttons for directional inputs in SF6). This obviously be partially a problem with the weight or layout of the SD but consider well how far you have to stretch your fingers when you do your proposed way of holding.

Yeah, makes sense, so I was also thinking of using a Steam Deck-like form factor as a base, removing the shoulder buttons and trigger buttons, and porting over the em-controller button layout so that all 4 fingers remain on the back at the same time, so they're not too far away from each other for comfort.

I found some open source projects for handheld consoles that have well made shells, and should be able to move the em-controller button layout over with a few modifications to theirs, will try to make the modifications later when I have time.

https://github.com/dmcke5/NucDeck https://github.com/StonedEdge/Retro-Lite-CM4 https://github.com/geaz/simplyRetro-Z5

I've used a gamepad with an xbox-like form factor before, which is shown in the picture below, and there are only 3 fingers on one hand that actually need to operate the gamepad, the ring finger and pinky are just for gripping, and maybe the buttons on my back are not used as direction inputs, so the other 4 fingers are all very comfortable except for the thumb. But due to the frequent use of the thumb, so it is damaged and feel pain, that's the reason why I switched to em-controller.

In my opinion from using the controller for a while, I miss an additional way of supporting it when playing long sessions. In my opinion, that is solved by providing space for the pinkies to hold it.

Haha, providing a grip for the little finger has crossed my mind before, it's that previous picture with the blue line in it.

My idea was to have the menu button moved up and hollowed out underneath for the little finger for added grip, but as I was writing, give forgot.

I made a new prototype that also improves on printability and reduces the overall sizes and complexity a bit. Here’s a foto for inspiration:

This new look, feels good and solves a lot of problems.

But, but when you're pressing the buttons on the back frequently, to enter commands, because you're using the palm of your hand to add grip to hold the controller in place, your thumb lifts up and offsets the buttons it's responsible for, like in the screenshot in the video.

Like I said before: adding a tilt to the back and the buttons at the same time feels like it would reduce the height of the thumb lift somewhat.

I think the change at C on the new look also improves the thumb offset somewhat.

I'd like to offer a little new idea for the front thumb buttons, which are button a and button b as shown, so that you can have the tip of the thumb go to button a, then cock the tip and use the belly of the thumb near the knuckle to press button b.

The advantage of this layout is that you can press the other key faster, but the disadvantage is that it's easy to accidentally touch it and may make your thumb feel uncomfortable.

Wait a minute, I just now realized the new look, how can it get so mini.... Turns out it's missing that cool little screen, haha.

If there's still space inside, I feel like I can place the menu button at position a or b? The small screen is placed at c. But I feel like the interior is already cramped.

[MerlinDesigns]

I don't know if you knew this already but the SteamDeck STLs are also available: https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/SteamDeck/hardware

Regarding the thumbs: I never considered this a problem actually. For one, the way I was holding the controller while filming was kind of awkward to make sure I could get it recorded with my awkwardly propped up phone. When I hold the controller normally, the top of my thumbs usually rests above the front buttons (which also helps with holding the controller) and I use the belly of the thumb, as you put it, to press the buttons when I need them. The new, orange controller has the front buttons moved up a little and I've been kind of regretting that change because I feel like I can't put my thumb anywhere when I don't need to press the buttons. I'll probably change the front buttons back down a bit.

Your suggestion with the tilt sounds interesting. I wonder if that'll make the buttons on the back nicer to press. I might try that out. I also like the idea of trying out the buttons being stacked diagonally as in the first sketch (A&B).

The current prototype is still kept very rough deliberately so that changing anything about it is quick and easy. However, button position changes are a little more involved compared to changing the grips etc. That's also why it doesn't have a screen yet. I threw that thing together in 1-2 days to try out how small I could make the controller and to promote iteration. Your ideas are motivating me to go back to iterating on it 😄

[cw-taotao]

Thanks, I really didn't know there were STL files for SteamDeck until you mentioned it.

I tried the carton model with an incline on the back (I was trying an angle of roughly 7-10 degrees to the horizontal), and it allows you to hold the controller with the metacarpal area of your thumb and a small portion of the palm area, and the overall feel of holding and pressing the buttons is a little bit more comfortable, as in areas a and b in the picture below.

Regarding the thumb issue, since I am playing Street Fighter 6 used to setting up a separate button for Drive Impact, Drive Parry, and Throw, for people like me who have slower reflexes, when it comes to situations where I need to press the buttons quickly, I am assigning a separate finger to be in charge of them 。。。。。。

I was thinking that when the other fingers are pressing the buttons on the back, my thumb doesn't need to be used to press down on the case to increase the grip, and my thumb can stay placed on those 4 buttons to press them faster.

Looking forward to subsequent iterations😄, I feel like grip comfort is an important point as well.