[Question] Descender extends beyond font height

[jezzzm]

Hi there, first-off, thanks for putting these out there for free general use! We are using them in a web app predominantly used by Aussie teachers, so it's great to have them available.

I'm not sure if it is by design or not - but the descenders for all the fonts extend beyond the defined total height when used in a web context (ttf, woff both exhibit this behaviour).

In most cases, this is fine as we can bump line-height such that it not captures the descenders completely.

However, for input elements, line-height has no effect, per CSS spec (or lack thereof). So, we are stuck with cut-off descenders. See screen recording (the first font is Sofia Pro Soft and doesn't have a cut off g, like the Aus fonts):

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/26472490/219826317-64392680-ce22-4778-a8d0-6c715d74c80e.mov

highlighted text also shows the clipped descender (this is with line height: 1):

I'm certainly not a font expert so this could very well be for a good reason! Would appreciate some advice here for how we could work with these fonts in a way that doesn't clip them!

Cheers Jez

[EbenSorkin]

Happily, this is a pretty easy fix. This is because the 'Win descent' value doesn't exceed the depth of the letter shape just yet. If the value for 'Win descent' is made bigger than the lowest shape ( but not 'typo' or 'hhea' ) the cut off will go away.

-e.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2023 at 9:16 PM Jeremy Milledge @.***> wrote:

Hi there, first-off, thanks for putting these out there for free general use! We are using them in a web app predominantly used by Aussie teachers, so it's great to have them available.

I'm not sure if it is by design or not - but the descenders for all the fonts extend beyond the defined total height when used in a web context (ttf, woff both exhibit this behaviour).

In most cases, this is fine as we can bump line-height such that it not captures the descenders completely.

However, for input elements, line-height has no effect, per CSS spec (or lack thereof). So, we are stuck with cut-off descenders. See screen recording (the first font is Sofia Pro Soft and doesn't have a cut off g, like the Aus fonts):

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/26472490/219826317-64392680-ce22-4778-a8d0-6c715d74c80e.mov

highlighted text also shows the clipped descender (this is with line height: 1): [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/26472490/219826411-d549b3ae-05bf-45e3-bb93-81919e8ee81d.png

I'm certainly not a font expert so this could very well be for a good reason! Would appreciate some advice here for how we could work with these fonts in a way that doesn't clip them!

Cheers Jez

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/MezMerrit/AU-School-Handwriting-Fonts/issues/15, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAQUQXINHLOCDCK4U3HNYFDWYAWINANCNFSM6AAAAAAVACAREA . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: @.***>

[jezzzm]

Brilliant. Thank you!

[EbenSorkin]

If we run the files through a GF font git template we will get font bakery results and they will say what those numeric values are. I can help you set up a template git.

We can also just run font bakery on the files. Let me know what's most useful for you.

-e.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 11:25 PM Jeremy Milledge @.***> wrote:

Brilliant. Thank you!

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/MezMerrit/AU-School-Handwriting-Fonts/issues/15#issuecomment-1441201875, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAQUQXKJDDWSRE7TJL5376DWY3RDRANCNFSM6AAAAAAVACAREA . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[EbenSorkin]

Tina, would you write an email to me? I think my emails to you may be going into spam.

-e.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 12:26 AM Eben Sorkin @.***> wrote:

If we run the files through a GF font git template we will get font bakery results and they will say what those numeric values are. I can help you set up a template git.

We can also just run font bakery on the files. Let me know what's most useful for you.

-e.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 11:25 PM Jeremy Milledge @.***> wrote:

Brilliant. Thank you!

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/MezMerrit/AU-School-Handwriting-Fonts/issues/15#issuecomment-1441201875, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAQUQXKJDDWSRE7TJL5376DWY3RDRANCNFSM6AAAAAAVACAREA . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[MezMerrit]

If we run the files through a GF font git template we will get font bakery results and they will say what those numeric values are. I can help you set up a template git. We can also just run font bakery on the files. Let me know what's most useful for you. … -e. On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 11:25 PM Jeremy Milledge @.> wrote: Brilliant. Thank you! — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#15 (comment)>, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAQUQXKJDDWSRE7TJL5376DWY3RDRANCNFSM6AAAAAAVACAREA . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.>

Thanks for attending to Jezz's issue. What do you need me to do?

[EbenSorkin]

I’ll help you build a template based repo on Tuesday or wed and then we can see what is technically hanging us up and work through that list but by bit.

On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 1:45 PM Mez @.***> wrote:

If we run the files through a GF font git template we will get font bakery results and they will say what those numeric values are. I can help you set up a template git. We can also just run font bakery on the files. Let me know what's most useful for you. … <#m-1557068776568284587> -e. On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 11:25 PM Jeremy Milledge @.> wrote: Brilliant. Thank you! — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#15 (comment) https://github.com/MezMerrit/AU-School-Handwriting-Fonts/issues/15#issuecomment-1441201875>, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAQUQXKJDDWSRE7TJL5376DWY3RDRANCNFSM6AAAAAAVACAREA https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAQUQXKJDDWSRE7TJL5376DWY3RDRANCNFSM6AAAAAAVACAREA . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.>

Thanks for attending to Jezz's issue. What do you need me to do?

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/MezMerrit/AU-School-Handwriting-Fonts/issues/15#issuecomment-1465295363, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAQUQXOAY3BDXJG5ZFWELVDW3YYU5ANCNFSM6AAAAAAVACAREA . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[MezMerrit]

@RosaWagner Happy to include you if you have time

[RosaWagner]

Nothing in here is a bug. It was carefully crafted at the demand of @MezMerrit so the linespacing coincide with the guidelines in australian textbooks. The win metrics are adjusted to avoid clipping, the blue highlight reflects the typo and hhea metrics, which define the desired linespacing.

[MezMerrit]

Nothing in here is a bug. It was carefully crafted at the demand of @MezMerrit so the linespacing coincide with the guidelines in australian textbooks. The win metrics are adjusted to avoid clipping, the blue highlight reflects the typo and hhea metrics, which define the desired linespacing.

Thank you. This is one end-user model I had not considered during the design process. I was entirely focused on print mediums and didn't consider how webfonts may be used. My bad? :P

Eben is aware of this, but for the benefit of @jezzzm's understanding I will explain in more detail... given this example:

The primary purpose of Google Fonts' involvement is to provide the fonts to teachers in their workspaces, where they prepare classroom materials - which are generally printed. The "dotted thirds" print medium shown here is applicable to years 1 to 3 (early learners), which our current production was designed to suit. Whereas years 4 to 6 print medium is plain ruled and reduces in height from dotted thirds down to 8mm/6mm single lines as students progress (and depending on the AU state requirements).

We are currently in the process of finalising the years 4 to 6 fonts, but essentially, this print medium design also complicates ascender and descender height, as @jezzzm noted and @RosaWagner is referring to. I'm not a type-face engineer, so I'm not sure there is a happy middle ground that may resolve Jeremy's issue but I'm certain Eben understands these complications and we'll brainstorm some solutions in the coming days.

:)

[RosaWagner]

Anyone can rebuild the font with other vertical metrics in a fork if they desire, but I will stress it here it be sure: it is absolutely important to not change them in this repo, and they must remain the same on Google.

[MezMerrit]

@RosaWagner Thanks! That seems like the happy middle ground we needed :) Looking back over the thread it seems maybe that was what Eben was suggesting too. I have a lot to learn about managing a git but I'm so glad to have you and Eben here to guide me :) :)