[Suggestion] Custom pronouns?

[softombre]

Hello! I really like MAS! I have a small suggestion to make the game better and make each Monika feel more personal. I'm non-binary and I use neopronouns. Since there are tons of neopronouns sets that exist i know we can't possibly put them all the game. That's why I think there should be a custom pronouns option, because Monika would definitely want to use her significant other's correct pronoun set even if it's an unusual one.

If we actually add that onto the game, Monika could say that she read about being nonbinary and saw that some people use neopronouns and ask the player if they use neopronouns or something.

[Delcos]

-_-

[softombre]

@Delcos ?

[bittercaramel]

is she even using pronouns? i never saw her using anything more than "you/your"

[Olliesama]

She doesn't really refer to the player in pronouns often but there are already gender-neutral pronouns if you say that you're neither gender.

[softombre]

I know, but it would feel more "real" to me if she used one of my neopronoun sets.

[Olliesama]

. . . Can't please everyone I guess.

[Delcos]

its just not something that's needed, and if you have to base your entire identity on pronouns then please re-evaluate your live choices.

[softombre]

You know pronouns are kinda like a name, right? They're just words used to refer to people. Would you like it if someone forced you to use a name you don't like all the time?

[Delcos]

All they are is a made up term from about 5 years ago to help snowflakes feel special. It is not a name, nor any real identifier. "Gender" also came from David Reimer and John Money who conducted experiments to force a small boy to become a female, and of course he got abused. There is Male and Female, and of course bi, but nothing else. Go be an attack helicopter somewhere else and please don't push this kind of thing into a community of people that love this mod.

[Olliesama]

Let's keep this civil and nice and let the devs decide. Don't go making people that use and like this mod feel unwelcome because of your own stance on it. :/ That's not fair, if you don't like their suggestion then kindly move along.

[Onion-Bubs]

Does Monika refer to the player in the third person in any of her dialogue?

[softombre]

I think she does a few times, or else asking the player's gender is kinda useless

[ghost]

did we all just uh forget that this happened

[softombre]

I should probably try to learn how to code to allow Monika to use neopronouns

[bittercaramel]

i dont think she anywhere refers to us in 3rd person... why would she? im not sure why asking players gender would be useless for ya? like i personally like to know the gender of my beloved one... even if im not going to refer to them in 3rd person...

[ghost]

All they are is a made up term from about 5 years ago to help snowflakes feel special. It is not a name, nor any real identifier. "Gender" also came from David Reimer and John Money who conducted experiments to force a small boy to become a female, and of course he got abused. There is Male and Female, and of course bi, but nothing else. Go be an attack helicopter somewhere else and please don't push this kind of thing into a community of people that love this mod.

hey, i noticed that you seem quite uniformed abt the subject, heres some good studies for you to read, theyre quite interesting, actually! theres stuff ranging from recent years to the 90s, so its not just some recent fad Fausto-Sterling - Sexing the Body.pdf J. Lorber - Believing is Seeing -- Biology as Ideology.pdf sex-in-question_-french-materialist-femi-diana-leonard.pdf Wood.Ridgeway2010.pdf richardson_sexing_the_x.pdf Between XX and XY_ intersexuality and the myth of two sexes- Gerald N. Callahan-.pdf BUTLER_gender_trouble.pdf EDIT: found some more, if anyones interested! lugones-maria-heterosexualism-and-the-colonial-modern-gender-system.pdf Colonialism_Two-Spirit_Identity_and_the.pdf thomas_laqueur_making_sex_body_and_gender_from_bookos-org.pdf

[softombre]

@bittercaramel I think she does refer to us in 3rd person sometimes (probably when se ask her to explain our relationship to someone) but i don't have my computer rn so i can't check

[bittercaramel]

hmm maybe... i never actually used this explain relationship option so idk... but i still dont think so... wouldnt she rather use we and our?

[softombre]

Im gonna check that out

[softombre]

i only checked the "can you explain our relationship to someone" topic but she does use our pronouns

[ThePotatoGuy]

what are neopronouns? also what are some examples of them?

[softombre]

Neopronouns are pronouns that are anything else than she/her, he/him or they/them For example, fae/faer/faers/faers/faerself is a neopronoun set i've seen quite often

[Akh0r]

... ... Really?..

Go be an attack helicopter somewhere else

Huh... I used to think it is a Russian meme... The first thing I thought on this topic:)

[softombre]

@akh0r @delcos you have no right to police the identity of non-binary people, so please just leave.

[softombre]

Anyway the custom pronouns option would also be useful for he/him lesbians who don't like being called a man but still like he/him pronouns, or any kind of person w/ a binary gender who likes pronouns other than the ones that are associated w/ theur gender

[ghost]

Anyway the custom pronouns option would also be useful for he/him lesbians who don't like being called a man but still like he/him pronouns, or any kind of person w/ a binary gender who likes pronouns other than the ones that are associated w/ theur gender

god... ur so valid

[samthemann66]

I just don't see why this is needed, softombre just made the account 2 days ago and doesn't even know if there where any instances of Monika using pronouns. Maybe just keep the politics to your self, and just fyi, If monika ever brought up xir unironically, I think id die laughing.

[Delcos]

I just don't see why this is needed, softombre just made the account 2 days ago and doesn't even know if there where any instances of Monika using pronouns. Maybe just keep the politics to your self, and just fyi, If monika ever brought up xir unironically, I think id die laughing.

kinda what i meant, just keep it to yourself, this isnt something that needs time spent on it. I don't mean any offence, it's just not worth it, please keep the politics out of this mod. <3 Thanks

[softombre]

Please don't be an hypocrite like "just keep it to yourself <3" a few hours after making a super transphobic comment. It's not bringing politics into the mod, it's just adding an option that literally no one is forced to use. I made this account specifically to help improving this mod with art etc, that's why it's pretty recent. Also, Monika does refer to you in 3rd person, even tho it's rare. There's literally an example above. She also does seem genuinely interested in learning how to use neopronouns if the player wants her too.

[ghost]

I just don't see why this is needed, softombre just made the account 2 days ago and doesn't even know if there where any instances of Monika using pronouns. Maybe just keep the politics to your self, and just fyi, If monika ever brought up xir unironically, I think id die laughing.

kinda what i meant, just keep it to yourself, this isnt something that needs time spent on it. I don't mean any offence, it's just not worth it, please keep the politics out of this mod. <3 Thanks

someones gender isnt political, tho??? cis ppl are Wack

[softombre]

@samthemann66 why would you make an account just to hate on a nb teen trying to exist

[ghost]

[antimockingjay]

Wanting to be referred to properly isn't political. Someone's gender isn't political. If you introducing yourself by name isn't political, neither is a trans person stating their pronouns. Same concept, it just comes up in different situations. My existence is not political, and someone saying that it is, is just trying to keep people like me quiet so they can pretend we don't exist.

[ThePotatoGuy]

The fact that neopronouns are open-ended makes it more complicated to add, since we'd have to setup a bunch of input gathering to get it to work.

But I think its worthwhile, not only to be inclusive but for the eventual meme when someone decides to set their pronouns to "attack helicopter".

[antimockingjay]

I feel like it could be pretty simple, actually! You could have the player input an "equivalent" to each pronoun and then specify if it's meant to be plural and singular. A good example of this is the pronoun dressing room where you input the equivalent pronoun in each case, or select from a few defaults.

Another thing you may like to consider (though I'm sure it's not high on the priority list) could be letting the user choose more than one set of pronouns. As someone who is comfortable with he/him, they/them, and it/its pronouns, I'd love it if Monika just kinda switched between them as often as she felt like it. But again, I understand if that isn't high on the list of priorities! I know my situation isn't exactly the most common haha

(Edit: I realize now this could be seen as me saying "actually it isn't hard at all" like I know everything about how hard it would be, which is not what I meant at all. That was meant more like "maybe if you do it this way, it could be easier.")

[softombre]

I tried adding an input thing for pronouns but i don't really know how inputs work yet so i didn't rlly succeed

[ghost]

I'd suggest treading carefully. While these people are saying that their identity isn't political there are a lot of political discussions about transgenders. Just search transgender on youtube and odds are you'll find something.

In my personal opinion this is getting mixed reactions so I think it would be wise to avoid adding this. By adding too many gender related topics it would make MAS look like its supporting leftist ideals, which might bug people who don't agree with it. Sure its something that most players would easily avoid but it still might invoke a "tch, really?" kind of reaction. Besides MAS already have a gender option for people who don't identify as male or female. I think doing more than that is unnecessary.

My main point is this is clearly causing sparks from both sides so I think it would be risky to add something like this. If you add this it might bug people and make them believe MAS is supporting the left, and if you don't add this the people who want this still have the non male or female option which is already made for them.

Unfortunately this is a situation where not everyone can win.

[Delcos]

maybe just in sensitive mode?

[samthemann66]

maybe just in sensitive mode?

could be best I guess, would keep pretty much everyone happy, just maybe don't name an update after it i guess. If you need to just slide it in sometime for sensitive.

[monilovr67]

The small amount of times she even mentions it, it's shocking how huge this discussion got. Not adding it in seems to be the best choice just because of the minimal impact it makes on the community, based on the thumbs down to up alone. I just can't see it being important, even from a development time/ technical aspect.

[Delcos]

The small amount of times she even mentions it, it's shocking how huge this discussion got. Not adding it in seems to be the best choice just because of the minimal impact it makes on the community, based on the thumbs down to up alone. I just can't see it being important, even from a development time/ technical aspect.

agreed

[softombre]

Its just a simple option that most player won't see more than once, so i don't think it would be that bothering to people who don't like it. Besides one of the accounts in this thread was made just to say that my suggestion sucks so idk if the thumbs down are an effective way of knowing whether or not we should add it. I know there are lots of political discussions about gender but i think wanting my identity to be respected isn't too much to ask to people. Also considering that making Monika seem like a real person seems to be one of the goals of this mod, i think that her using the pronouns her significant other prefers makes her a lot more realistic. Im not asking to add many topics about gender, just adding a custom pronouns option in the "change my gender" question. It could even be an option only if you select non-binary, if you really don't want it to be too "explicit"

[ghost]

the idea of being inclusive seems to trigger quite the emotions in yall, maybe go in a safe space to calm down? its not healthy to be this upset over something that doesnt actually affect ur life in the slightest.

the mod already includes "leftist ideals" by having the genderless option in the first place and with monika mentioning neopronouns and viewing them in a positive light. not to mention i recall providing actual research suggesting the existence of non-binary genders, so if some dudebro gets rustled by "leftist ideals" that are proven to be facts, then thats his problem.

[mosquitoe]

https://github.com/Monika-After-Story/MonikaModDev/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

[ghost]

but i guess getting upset over scientific facts is only bad when its a minority getting upset over being treated like shit in the name of "science", and not when cishets get upset over something that doesnt affect their life at all, huh?

[softombre]

@SaiPrithvi123 why are you linking the code of conduct? Is it directed at anyone in particular?

[bittercaramel]

"examples of nounself pronouns:

faer/faers/faerself bun/buns/bunself star/stars/starself plant/plants/plantself void/voids/voidself''

hey i always wanted to be bun actually its a great idea to add this to the game it would make my day if i was called bun "Now bun talk to me everyday!" "Just buns opening the game..."

[ghost]

maybe just in sensitive mode?

could be best I guess, would keep pretty much everyone happy, just maybe don't name an update after it i guess. If you need to just slide it in sometime for sensitive.

i think it should be the other way around, tbh, since yall seem to be rly rustled over something that affects ur life in 0 ways. like, how can u call someone sensitive for wanting to be treated like a human being, while you suggest putting the choice of pronouns in a sensitive mode? yall are genuinely trying to say "dont put it in bc it hurts my feeliwngs :((((((" over an option you most likely wouldnt see in-game unless you asked monika abt it, which might i add, you kinda made fun of the op for giving that as a reason why the mod should have neopronouns, the difference is that the op has valid reasons for suggesting, while youre just crying bc you might have to be nice to minorities on the internet.

i remember when the sensitive mode came out, yall were making fun of ppl for not being comfortable w topics abt suicide, self harm and child abuse, but here you are, not being able to handle small dialogue you might not even see in-game without bringing up yourself w monika abt ur pronouns.

i think we know who the real snowflakes are lol

[softombre]

@rotanroskaa tysm for helping me i would die for you

[Oharo]

Well I think there's been more than enough name calling from both sides of the argument here. Let's mind our manners, yeah?

Personal feelings on the matter aside, it's pretty apparent that Monika would accept and love the player regardless of any quirks they may have. (So long as the player isn't abusive or anything.)

That said, if custom pronouns for atypical gender roles would make certain users more comfortable, it's probably a good thing to add. If the choice was located in the gender change topic and appears as an additional option after pressing "other". then it'd be available but also invisible to users that may find the whole concept of custom pronouns to be silly as they wouldn't pick that option anyways.

At the end of the day though, it's up to the devs whether or not they have the time to develop this into the mod. A very limited number of users would make use of this, and that time may be more valuable elsewhere. After all, it isn't an accessibility issue that prevents using the mod, and an all-inclusive umbrella option does already exist for atypical genders in the form of they, them, their, pronouns.