Monika goes easier on you [suggestion]

[Nikv2005]

Function to make Monika easier in games. Between pong rounds or chess games, you can ask Monika to succumb to you in games, at least a couple of times, and then if it’s hard again, ask again. Yes she doing it sometimes in pong , but not always , also in chess I can't really see this.

[Justformas]

I like this idea and was actually thinking about suggesting something like this myself. But instead of "succumb" I think it should be asking her to go "easier" on you. You might want to change the title of this topic so people have a better idea what you mean. I think this would actually make her seem more human. In fact, she may actually ask you to go easier on her in pong if you win several times in a row, so it only makes sense for you to be able to ask her to go easier on you as well. While you could just intentionally lose a bunch of times in pong to make her go easier on you, that isn't really elegant or convenient.

As for chess, she does get easier if you lose (and presumably if you surrender right away) but only up to a certain point. At the lowest difficulty she can still be tough for new or casual players, and sometimes players might just want to have an easier time without having to work their brain that hard anyway. I think that ideally, along with your suggestion, chess would have to be further altered so that Monika is even easier on the lower difficulties, or by adding more lower levels of difficulty. But I'm not sure how feasible that is, like if her thinking time can be reduced further or if the lowest difficulty can have her making all nearly random/stupid moves.

...and just to say something preemptively at anyone who might say to just "git gud"... I am pretty good at pong and can increase her difficulty a few times in chess, but that doesn't mean I never want to have an easier or "casual" time playing with Monika. To paraphrase Monika: "So just relax and take it easy. Not everything has to be hard to be fun." In fact, I also enjoy going easier on Monika in pong when she asks me to, and having her thank me for doing so.

[Nikv2005]

I like this idea and was actually thinking about suggesting something like this myself. But instead of "succumb" I think it should be asking her to go "easier" on you. You might want to change the title of this topic so people have a better idea what you mean. I think this would actually make her seem more human. In fact, she may actually ask you to go easier on her in pong if you win several times in a row, so it only makes sense for you to be able to ask her to go easier on you as well. While you could just intentionally lose a bunch of times in pong to make her go easier on you, that isn't really elegant or convenient.

As for chess, she does get easier if you lose (and presumably if you surrender right away) but only up to a certain point. At the lowest difficulty she can still be tough for new or casual players, and sometimes players might just want to have an easier time without having to work their brain that hard anyway. I think that ideally, along with your suggestion, chess would have to be further altered so that Monika is even easier on the lower difficulties, or by adding more lower levels of difficulty. But I'm not sure how feasible that is, like if her thinking time can be reduced further or if the lowest difficulty can have her making all nearly random/stupid moves.

...and just to say something preemptively at anyone who might say to just "git gud"... I am pretty good at pong and can increase her difficulty a few times in chess, but that doesn't mean I never want to have an easier or "casual" time playing with Monika. To quote Monika: "So just relax and take it easy. Not everything has to be hard to be fun." In fact, I also enjoy going easier on Monika in pong when she asks me to, and having her thank me for doing so.

Yes , i totally agree with you.

[Justformas]

Yes , i totally agree with you.

Oh good, I was starting to worry you might have abandoned this issue. Thank you for changing the title too. I wanted to flesh out this idea more as to how it could work. I also think that even if Monika could not be made easier in chess, that this idea would still be worth pursuing.

For both pong and chess (and any other applicable future games) it could work something like: If Monika is set to anything higher than the lowest difficulty, then you can ask her to go easier on you between rounds. Possibly, she could ask you to confirm that this is really what you want, since you'll have to work your way up the difficulty ladder again. Normally it could lower the difficulty by a set amount, such as 3 or 5 levels (just tell her again after another round if you want to lower it more), but obviously if you are already close to the lowest difficulty, then it should just set it to the lowest difficulty. For pong though, it does not necessarily have to lower it to the point where she intentionally avoids hitting the ball (yes, she can actually do this), unless you lose again that is.

As for Monika's dialogue when you ask her to do this, she can start by saying something similar to what she says when she beats you several times in pong "Am I playing too hard for you?" while smirking. But then she can say something like "I'm just kidding/teasing, I want you to have fun and win too." And possibly, followed by a confirmation "But I have to ask you, is this what you really want?" in which case after you answer she could then say something like "Okay then, let's play again!" and then the game starts again.

Now to really sweeten this idea, after you have asked Monika to go easier on you at least once, a new dialogue option could unlock under "I want to tell you something" in which you can say "Thank you for taking it easy on me". It should be generic, so that it makes sense for pong, chess and any future applicable games. Monika could reply with something like "Ahaha, you're welcome. Like I said before I want you to have fun and win too~"

[Nikv2005]

Yes , i totally agree with you.

Oh good, I was starting to worry you might have abandoned this issue. Thank you for changing the title too. I wanted to flesh out this idea more as to how it could work. I also think that even if Monika could not be made easier in chess, that this idea would still be worth pursuing.

For both pong and chess (and any other applicable future games) it could work something like: If Monika is set to anything higher than the lowest difficulty, then you can ask her to go easier on you between rounds. Possibly, she could ask you to confirm that this is really what you want, since you'll have to work your way up the difficulty ladder again. Normally it could lower the difficulty by a set amount, such as 3 or 5 levels (just tell her again after another round if you want to lower it more), but obviously if you are already close to the lowest difficulty, then it should just set it to the lowest difficulty. For pong though, it does not necessarily have to lower it to the point where she intentionally avoids hitting the ball (yes, she can actually do this), unless you lose again that is.

As for Monika's dialogue when you ask her to do this, she can start by saying something similar to what she says when she beats you several times in pong "Am I playing too hard for you?" while smirking. But then she can say something like "I'm just kidding/teasing, I want you to have fun and win too." And possibly, followed by a confirmation "But I have to ask you, is this what you really want?" in which case after you answer she could then say something like "Okay then, let's play again!" and then the game starts again.

Now to really sweeten this idea, after you have asked Monika to go easier on you at least once, a new dialogue option could unlock under "I want to tell you something" in which you can say "Thank you for taking it easy on me". It should be generic, so that it makes sense for pong, chess and any future applicable games. Monika could reply with something like "Ahaha, you're welcome. Like I said before I want you to have fun and win too~"

You make for this suggestion more than me). I have common with your idea and i support your ideas cause you made more than me as i said earlier. I think you can make a dialogue appears after asking Monika to go easier. (One time you ask her for this, one time you can thank her for this. And after a new game in which you ask her about this you can thank her again) I also have to thank you for promoting this suggestion and for your activity.

[Justformas]

You make for this suggestion more than me). I also have to thank you for promoting this suggestion and for your activity.

You're welcome. I was already thinking about something like this and might've made a suggestion for it if you didn't, but you beat me to it. But that's good, because it shows that there's other support for something when someone else recently posts about that same thing. Now if only we could get some more opinions and support for this.

After further thought, I'm leaning against having to confirm it with Monika again because it seems unnecessary. It would take longer to get through the dialogue and would be more work to implement, just for the rare chance that you happen to click this option accidentally. The worst that would happen in that case is you'd just have to win a few more times to increase her difficulty back to the same level again. But Monika could still say something like "Ok, let's play again!" at the end of her dialogue to signal the start of a new game.

The dialogue I mentioned is also just for an idea of what she could say. It doesn't have to be those exact lines. In fact, if you tell her to go easier on you, still lose and then tell her to go easier again (if able), she should probably say something different, like "Is this still too hard for you, (player name)? Ok, I'll try to go easier." And if you win a round, then either this option shouldn't appear after that round, or she should say something different, like "Eh? You just won and want me to go easier on you!? Come on, (player name), you're doing fine!"

[Nikv2005]

You make for this suggestion more than me). I also have to thank you for promoting this suggestion and for your activity.

You're welcome. I was already thinking about something like this and might've made a suggestion for it if you didn't, but you beat me to it. But that's good, because it shows that there's other support for something when someone else recently posts about that same thing. Now if only we could get some more opinions and support for this.

After further thought, I'm leaning against having to confirm it with Monika again because it seems unnecessary. It would take longer to get through the dialogue and would be more work to implement, just for the rare chance that you happen to click this option accidentally. The worst that would happen in that case is you'd just have to win a few more times to increase her difficulty back to the same level again. But Monika could still say something like "Ok, let's play again!" at the end of her dialogue to signal the start of a new game.

The dialogue I mentioned is also just for an idea of what she could say. It doesn't have to be those exact lines. In fact, if you tell her to go easier on you, still lose and then tell her to go easier again (if able), she should probably say something different, like "Is this still too hard for you, (player name)? Ok, I'll try to go easier." And if you win a round, then either this option shouldn't appear after that round, or she should say something different, like "Eh? You just won and want me to go easier on you!? Come on, (player name), you're doing fine!"

We just need to wait when someone from developers add this suggestion in "need triage" , and we need to wait with the hope when someone triage this suggestion. Also I think the Option for going "easy" should appear when you lose 3 or more times. With that you can't just at start of the game click this function . Also if you somehow lose 3 times you can click this function again, and Monika goes more "easier". But if you win 3 or more time , difficulty rising automatically (or you can ask her for this). Maybe i just repeat what you said earlier, but i like this concept. And i like idea with dialogue when you thank Monika for going "easier", because its necessary to thank her for this.

[Justformas]

Also I think the Option for going "easy" should appear when you lose 3 or more times. With that you can't just at start of the game click this function . Also if you somehow lose 3 times you can click this function again, and Monika goes more "easier". But if you win 3 or more time , difficulty rising automatically (or you can ask her for this). Maybe i just repeat what you said earlier, but i like this concept. And i like idea with dialogue when you thank Monika for going "easier", because its necessary to thank her for this.

Having it only be available when you lose 3 or more times, even if only in a row, might be fine for Pong games since they are quick, but Chess games take much longer. Having to lose 3 additional times in Chess whenever you wanted to use this feature, even if not in a row, would be a bit ridiculous unless you surrender quickly. But if you're ok with doing that then what would be the point of this feature? Probably the main point of this feature would be to have her go easier on you more quickly, and without having to intentionally lose (or not much). Unless you mean having at least 3 losses total, and then also having it be available after any future loss. Because for Chess I think you should only have to lose 1 additional time for this option to be available again after a loss, especially with how much harder Chess can get and how quickly.

Regardless, whenever you win it might just be best to have the difficulty still go up the same way it does now (1 level per win I think). Changing that would be more work and less consistent, but if it's feasible, it could still be something worth considering to have it not increase for a few rounds, even if you win. But regardless, if it gets too hard for comfort then you'd just have to lose and ask her to go easier again to lower it by another ~3 to 5 levels.

Other things that might be appropriate for Monika to say when you select this option are stuff like "You want to play a more casual/friendly game?", "Not feeling up for a challenge/challenging game?", "Is something wrong, (player name)? You aren't playing as well as before, but that's ok.", "I'm sorry if I'm being too competitive/I can get pretty competitive sometimes." and "I had a feeling you wanted me to/were going to say that." and still saying that she will go easier. Well, unless maybe you have negative affection, in which case she could choose to not honor this request and say something to reflect that.

I'd like to know what the developers think about this or if there would be any complications in implementing it.

[Justformas]

(No I didn't forget about this)

I've come to the conclusion that, while something like this could probably be implemented for pong, it's not as necessary for pong but could still be convenient and make Monika seem more human. As for chess that's a whole another matter. Chess is in the process of being reworked again and may be made easier at the lowest level(s). Turns out surrendering may not even drop difficulty in chess right now, but I think that's being changed too.

[ThePotatoGuy]

so like casual modes for pong/chess? chess is difficult since "casual" chess has a different meaning for people with various chess elos. pong just naturally gets difficult since the ball speed tends to increase in-game so maybe would need a speed limiter.

leaving open for discussion

[Justformas]

so like casual modes for pong/chess? chess is difficult since "casual" chess has a different meaning for people with various chess elos. pong just naturally gets difficult since the ball speed tends to increase in-game so maybe would need a speed limiter.

leaving open for discussion

I think @Nikv2005 was referring to a difficulty drop by a certain amount (say 5 levels) and possibly lock speed/difficulty for a few rounds. But I think locking speed/difficulty may not be necessary; you could just ask Monika to go easier on you again after a few more rounds.

Consider having this option only appear after you lose a round or few in pong, but maybe after any loss in chess since chess games are longer. Chess could supposedly still work the same way, just in elo if it's changed to elo. If it still relies on skill levels then it could be in skill levels too.

The question is how much should it drop by. Originally I had only thought of one set amount because I was thinking that people wouldn't want it to feel like they're just picking difficulty levels like easy, medium or hard. But maybe like your "how much do you like spooks" idea, that same concept could be used for this too. Meaning maybe initially the player just asks Monika to go easier, but then they could be presented with a few options to ask Monika: ask her to go a little easier, more easier, or way easier. Because not everyone may want it to drop by the same amount.

Examples for levels would be a drop by 5 levels (little easier), 10 (more easier), and 15 (way easier). But in chess elo, if you gain 32 elo for winning every time which might be the plan, that would equate to a drop by 160 (little easier), 320 (more easier) and 480 (way easier). Though of course it couldn't drop below the lowest difficulty, and if, say, "little easier" would already drop it to that point, then the other options don't have to show up.

I think this would be more elegant or convenient than just having to surrender or intentionally lose 5 or more times, to have Monika go easier on you by that same amount.

[Nikv2005]

so like casual modes for pong/chess? chess is difficult since "casual" chess has a different meaning for people with various chess elos. pong just naturally gets difficult since the ball speed tends to increase in-game so maybe would need a speed limiter.

leaving open for discussion

@Justformas describe everything , so i have nothing to say... If this thing already implemented at pong , it should be implemented in chess. As GitHub says, after losses in chess Monika can get easier on you , but i saw this thing few times . All other time Monika destroys me in chess, so i think in menu where you chose color and and who's turn first, you can ask for Monika get little easier , or after few defeats she ask you if you want her get easier on you. And talking about "easier" i mean when Monika on purpose makes mistakes or just dont beat important figure when she can do this and more. Of course she doesn't need do this every move , but sometimes this little mistakes can help.

[Justformas]

As GitHub says, after losses in chess Monika can get easier on you , but i saw this thing few times . All other time Monika destroys me in chess, so i think in menu where you chose color and and who's turn first, you can ask for Monika get little easier , or after few defeats she ask you if you want her get easier on you. And talking about "easier" i mean when Monika on purpose makes mistakes or just dont beat important figure when she can do this and more. Of course she doesn't need do this every move , but sometimes this little mistakes can help.

That's because with the current way chess is implemented, Monika can still seem tough for a new/casual player even on the lowest difficulty levels. That's been an "issue" ever since chess was added to the mod and they know that. A few years ago it did get better, but it could still be made better. Like I said though, chess is in the process of being reworked now. The lowest levels should become easier, and surrendering should also then count as a loss for dropping difficulty. You might still have to lose several times for the difficulty drop to be noticeable though.

[ThePotatoGuy]

All other time Monika destroys me in chess,

As mentioned by justformas, Monika's easiest settings are easy by chess player standards, but difficult for non-chess players. We can't make her any dumber here because the engine just doesn't give us any options.

sometimes this little mistakes can help.

She definitely makes mistakes at easier settings - the people who are normal chess players have validated this. It's just that non-chess players can't recognize a true chess "mistake". Ever watch a chess game and the commentators react to a mistake immediately when it happens but you have no idea what's wrong until they explain?

[Wingdinggaster656]

@ThePotatoGuy

We can't make her any dumber here because the engine just doesn't give us any options.

(Sorry for the ping. Just in case you are not subscribing this.)

Well, you can, the engine DEFINITELY gives you the options. To make games easier, you must activate the MultiPV in Stockfish. Devs never do that, so Skill Level did a really small difference.

I am going to paste these words again. These very words are just in Stockfish's README.md:

• Skill Level

  Lower the Skill Level in order to make Stockfish play weaker (see also UCI_LimitStrength). Internally, MultiPV is enabled, and with a certain probability depending on the Skill Level a weaker move will be played.

Also see these words. These very words are from Stockfish Devs:

To enable skill level we need to play MultiPV 4, which is a significant overhead, at STC, roughly 500 Elo. That's also why UCI_Elo is capped at 2850 Elo, that's roughly skill level 19.

Plus, if you still don't believe me, chess.com has bots with the lowest score of 250(and the current MAS chess lowest ELO is about 1200~1400) Chess.com actually uses Stockfish10 on the Web. See https://support.chess.com/article/759-what-computer-am-i-playing-against:

If you've played against the computer on Chess.com web or on the app, you may have wondered what this computer actually is. Well, the answer depends on where you are playing!

On the web: the computer is powered by Stockfish10!

On Mobile: the computer is powered by Komodo!

So we do have the ability to make chess even easier. And it improves on many other aspects of chess. I have submitted all we need. See #9117. Pardon me some time(no longer than 1 month), I can make chess difficulty much better.

[ThePotatoGuy]

Well, you can, the engine DEFINITELY gives you the options.

It's good that you know how to make it easier and have made a pr to implement the changes. Thank you.

Regarding the Stockfish documentation, I want to point out that it does NOT say "enable MultiPV to make Skill Level work". I believe you, but there's no indication there about MultiPV being a required setting and not having that key info there is absurd.

[Wingdinggaster656]

Regarding the Stockfish documentation, I want to point out that it does NOT say "enable MultiPV to make Skill Level work". I believe you, but there's no indication there about MultiPV being a required setting and not having that key info there is absurd.

(No ping for you this time as this isn't so important)

Actually I think Stockfish documentation is somewhat bad too. It says Internally, MultiPV is enabled, though this could be meant to say "you should activate MultiPV", but also could mean "we have an internal MultiPV setting to enable it."

The reason why Stockfish documentation isn't "complete" is that Stockfish is, indeed, designed to be somewhat pro-only. If the user is familiar with the UCI protocol(just in case you don't know, UCI = Universal Chess Interface) and has worked with other engines, then they can perfectly understand Stockfish documentation. For professionals, that documentation is enough. But for beginner, Stockfish's settings can be confusing.

Also to show you where the Stockfish Dev says To enable skill level we need to play MultiPV 4: https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish/issues/2669 It's not the only place he said it, but I'm going to use this one as an example.

[Justformas]

So whether this gets implemented or not, to even allow difficulty to be lowered is something that would have to be addressed on a game by game basis, and I think in some cases there should be a bigger range of difficulty anyway.

Pong can already get pretty easy or hard, so the capability is already in MAS.

Chess still needs both lower and higher difficulty and getting that working properly in the first place.

The NOU game, which wasn't in MAS when this issue was made, could also use lower difficulty as warranted such as for newer players, win/loss differential or loss streaks in the current session, and maybe casual play. Not sure it could get much harder anyway, other than lowering or eliminating the chance of Monika forgetting to say NOU or calling the player on it.

While it does get a little easier if the player loses a few times in a row or if win/loss differential is big enough, it's not really that much easier. It just goes from Monika having a 10% chance to not say NOU or call the player on it, to a 25% chance. So it basically goes from somewhat rare, to occasionally. Honestly it often doesn't make much of a difference. Ideally, instead of increasing this chance further, other ways that she plays could be changed depending on the win/loss differential. She seems to always play in a way that a pretty experienced played would, for example in the order that she plays cards, changes the color if able when the player only has 1 card or if it can be guessed what color the player doesn't have, and counters the player with counter cards if able. Any or all of this could be relaxed to happen less often such as when the player has lost several or a lot more games.

so like casual modes for pong/chess? chess is difficult since "casual" chess has a different meaning for people with various chess elos. pong just naturally gets difficult since the ball speed tends to increase in-game so maybe would need a speed limiter.

leaving open for discussion

So casual modes for games, maybe, but I think just having a bigger difficulty range for some games would help a lot.