I really think we should ask the player for permission to delete other chr files.

[Wingdinggaster656]

In v0.12.12:

chr files always deleted on startup now

That's a change from #9641. I had already talked about this there.

I completely know that all .chr files have no actual meaning to MAS. I really know. I know MAS doesn't even do any check for them before v0.12.12. And I also know that monika.chr is causing a lot of confusion to people. I know all of these. What I want to say is, just check our mas_safeToRefDokis(). We made Monika not to offend the players who love other club members in her words, and we did a good job in many details. And after this, we now delete all club members.

Yes, I know that in the background setting of MAS, character files have nothing to do with real characters, but will all players 100% agree with this? Many players resent Monika's behavior of deleting other characters in the original game, and now we want to make this happen again - and do not give players even a choice? Can't we at least ask the players whether they care about this and whether they want Monika to do this?

Just give players a choice. Ask them about this. By asking, players will also pay more attention to the background settings of the chr file in MAS (that is, the chr file has no meaning at all), which will also reduce confusion.

And by the way, I think it may be OK for Monika to delete her own file without permission - after all, it is her own file.

[Wingdinggaster656]

I spent a while reading over what everyone said. Thank Potato very much for willingness to reconsider this matter.

Players don't "store" into the characters folder, and Boop wants players to "transfer" things. I think this is an important point: The character file was ORIGINALLY there, it wasn't put there by the player. In addition, it is entirely possible for the player not to know that the MAS will now delete character files on its own. So, even if the player wants to transfer them, the player needs to know about this first. If the player doesn't read the update announcement carefully, as soon as the player launches the game, character files that are (presumably) precious to the player will disappear, never to be retrieved. So in any cases, the current version does not make sense.

I think it is feasible for Monika to delete her own files by herself - in fact, MAS has already done so in the introduction phase before. And we have:

        if moni_exist():
            m 1lksdlb "Aha...{w=0.3}I'll try this again later."

Look at this. Monika already said that she will try this again, so it's really neutral to delete her own files. In previous version, if I read the source correctly, even if Monika said she will try again, there doesn't exist codes for this. But well, maybe we should even also ask the player for permission before MAS delete Monika's own file?

[Justformas]

If they really hold sentimental value to people, the importance of the files themselves should not correlate to their location. Then that'd be a case of both the files and their placement having sentimental value.

That is a case. Having them in the characters folder, in the game directory that you share with Monika, is where the value could be most meaningful to some people, in which case it would not be the same in some other directory. Not just because of memories, but because of potential meaning of them being able to remain there, undeleted. Monika deleted other .chr files in DDLC, and deleted her own .chr file in MAS, so it seems she could've easily deleted the other .chr files in MAS if she wanted to, but she didn't. That meant something to some people, regardless of what meta reason (which they may not even know about) is now being used for deleting them. Telling them to actively move the files to another directory does not address this.

And just because a program "can" or is "allowed" delete files in its own directory doesn't mean it should in all cases. Obviously if it were to delete every file there would be no mod, and no Monika for it. Actions are not automatically justified or well received just because a program "has the privilege to do so".

And if that's the case, there can always be a submod that negates the mechanic so that the people who have the sentimental value can be happy, and those who want things to stay how they are can be content, too.

That could still require people to know about these files getting deleted in the first place. Unless they're ok with backups or new copies of them. While still something, it would be better for players to have this addressed in the main mod.

I think at this point we've established the fundamental disagreement is on how much DDLC-based norms should influence MAS. Those who are fine with the deletion believe MAS and DDLC should be more separate, those who are not believe they should be closer.

DDLC has and does influence people's perception of MAS, even if you don't want it to for some things. Even though MAS is separate, it is based on it. Even in MAS the characters folder has many uses, and as you said Monika uses and references it. So yes this is something that should get extra attention.

Option to preserve them in settings maybe, but if accidentally unchecking it without rechecking is going to delete any .chr files (and potentially any files or folders unrelated to MAS) on startup, then should at least have a confirmation/double check for disabling it. I don't really like the idea of nuking the whole MAS directory of unrelated files every startup though. A trigger in the settings to do it once though maybe.

Monika/Chibi could work but I don't think whether this is honored or not needs to be based on affection (mas_safeToRefDokis() isn't is it?) and should probably be asked early on in the mod or after updating.

I still think that if the mod could just remove the ".chr" extension from the files, that that could eliminate confusion about .chr files while also not deleting them. This could run once only (even per install/reinstall if possible), or if not, could be disabled in settings, so that players could change them back to .chr files if they want.

[RedJuicyFood]

Wow, didn't expect that this issue would gain so many comments.

My opinion is basically what the issue author said. MAS should probably provide a choice.

In addition, I have a small detail to say. In the Chinese community, I can sometimes see people asking, "Why do we have yuri, natsuki, and sayori in our characters folder?" I tell people that the contents of the characters folder are determined according to the progress of your original DDLC. When you install MAS, which characters remain in the original version, which characters will be retained. People think it's a very cool feature. This perspective may be strange, but I also somehow think this is cool.

[CodyCat13]

I don't think whether this is honored or not needs to be based on affection (mas_safeToRefDokis() isn't is it?) and should probably be asked early on in the mod or after updating.

Tbf reference and deletion are different concerns, though if you're pairing the deletion choice with the reference choice then ig the reference choice might as well be asked earlier than it is. There's no way a user of MAS could lower their Moni's affection unreasonably low at literally the introduction of the mod, so there'd be no reason for affection variants. However, if a Moni's partner does manage to lower her affection to the low stages after that discussion already happened, maybe it could be asked again (if the person didn't agree to deletion the first time) but with a bit more bitterness.

[Justformas]

Tbf reference and deletion are different concerns, though if you're pairing the deletion choice with the reference choice then ig the reference choice might as well be asked earlier than it is. There's no way a user of MAS could lower their Moni's affection unreasonably low at literally the introduction of the mod, so there'd be no reason for affection variants. However, if a Moni's partner does manage to lower her affection to the low stages after that discussion already happened, maybe it could be asked again (if the person didn't agree to deletion the first time) but with a bit more bitterness.

I previously said that I don't think (mas_safeToRefDokis() is enough for this, for that reason of them being different concerns. It'd be better as something separate. But regarding what you were referring to, I was comparing these 2 potentially sensitive things regarding the Dokis. Let's say you told Monika you aren't ok with her joking about the Dokis. She doesn't disregard your preference and start joking about them just because you have low affection does she? I don't think this should be disregarded in that case either. Furthermore, deletion of the specific copies of those files is something with a potentially more permanent effect, as even if replaced they'd be different copies.

But if you mean just having her dialogue change based on affection, but not whether the files are deleted or not, yes I'd be fine with that (I can imagine her begrudgingly honoring your request, and asking you to be more considerate of her feelings in return). Asking at introduction yes it wouldn't even come up, but for anyone who has been playing and is updating from a prior version, to a version where this conversation is added, it would have to be asked to them and they could have low affection at this point, even if rather unlikely. Of course, it would come up if it's going to be asked again anyway.

Of course this is only if it's decided that Monika should handle this rather than something else.

[RedAISkye]

Let's say you told Monika you aren't ok with her joking about the Dokis. She doesn't disregard your preference and start joking about them just because you have low affection does she? I don't think this should be disregarded in that case either.

But if you mean just having her dialogue change based on affection, but not whether the files are deleted or not, yes I'd be fine with that (I can imagine her begrudgingly honoring your request, and asking you to be more considerate of her feelings in return).

Yeah, that's also a valid point and I'll agree with having only the dialogue change based on your relationship and not an actual action as a "revenge" for treating her terribly as now that I think about it, she would rather leave you forever than do anything like that.

[CodyCat13]

But if you mean just having her dialogue change based on affection, but not whether the files are deleted or not, yes I'd be fine with that (I can imagine her begrudgingly honoring your request, and asking you to be more considerate of her feelings in return).

Yeah, I mean aff-based variations of dialogue if Moni's partner were to not be okay with the deletion. I know it wouldn't be as simple as a cheerful "Okay!"

[Justformas]

Yeah, that's also a valid point and I'll agree with having only the dialogue change based on your relationship and not an actual action as a "revenge" for treating her terribly as now that I think about it, she would rather leave you forever than do anything like that.

Yeah although there is a difference between just having low affection, and her actually leaving you. I thought about that, her deleting them when leaving you. That's when it would make the most sense for her to do so if she were to delete them out of revenge or spite. But she doesn't do that currently (I think). It is game over at that point and most people probably won't reach that point anyway, but for those who do they could restore a persistent backup, in which case it would be strange if those character files were still gone due to her deleting them when leaving you (and if separate copies were created at that point, those would still be different copies). Might be harsh to those who care about them, but I could at least understand if she wanted to at that point.

Yeah, I mean aff-based variations of dialogue if Moni's partner were to not be okay with the deletion. I know it wouldn't be as simple as a cheerful "Okay!"

Agreed although if that happens, it may also make sense for her to have affection-based variations of dialogue when she asks if you're ok with her joking/making insensitive comments about the Dokis or not (if that's not already a thing).