Open carehart opened 5 years ago
Hi Charlie,
Thanks for this and your other PRs.
The guide is missing the entire production section and in need of some assistance for a couple reasons:
1) Even though we did just recently switch from ACF to Lucee, I wanted the guide to be as useful to the community as possible and to cover everybody’s good practices - not just ours or Ortus’. But when we started the guide last year, Adobe didn’t have clear licensing terms and it became clear that we wouldn’t be able to talk about them in a meaningful way. That didn’t slow us down so much as make us aware we would need to revise some sections.
2) We had a baby in March and other than our talk at into the box, very little has got done community wise since then. I am aiming to get back into the guide in October.
I am on vacation this week so haven’t read everything you wrote, but the short answer to ‘what about other ways’ is that we would welcome contributions and believe that, even if acf didn’t work out for us, a rising tide lifts all boats. I will want to be sure we are frank about the pros and cons of each solution, but as you of course know, Lucee has its share of cons there and we aren’t idealogical around here.
Will write more later this week. Thanks for your interest.
Sam Knowlton
On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:03 AM Charlie Arehart notifications@github.com wrote:
I mentioned in my last issue the observation that currently the guide focuses only on use of the Ortus images (for Lucee and CF). Those are great, of course. And for many needs, they will suffice.
But would you be open to expanding this great resource to cover those ACF images? They've been out a couple of years, and they are fairly different from the Ortus ones, in implementation and in their use.
I understand if you may not feel it important to cover in this guide. If you may prefer only to point to resources elsewhere that cover them (whether Adobe's or mine I am developing), I could offer that instead.
If you did instead want to consider expanding this guide to cover them, I could propose some changes over time. There would be a few places in need of expamsuon, not to mention the related simple-cfml-complete project showing the compose file and related resources. Or I could offer an equivalent to that as a different project your resource could point to.
I simply want to help people know of those Adobe CF images, and know more about them, as some may be inclined or required to use them. Nearly all other cf/docker resources do of course cover the Ortus commandbox ones, as they have been out longer.
Those commandbox images do also appeal to those wanting to switch easily between CF and Lucee. That said, Lucee has their own images, and perhaps someone would be interested in offering expansion to this guide to cover those also, for the sake of completeness.
All that said, if you may think it too complicated to weave this/these in and just want to let this stand as is, I'd understand. But if you're open to considering suggestions to weave in use of the Adobe CF images, just let me know and I'd propose suggestions when I can.
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OK, great. Thanks. And congrats on the baby, and enjoy your vacation, of course! :-)
As for the CF licensing, it is actually documented. I did a post in MArch on the Adobe CF portal pointing out the info:
https://coldfusion.adobe.com/2019/03/coldfusion-licensing-docker-containers/
That said, the news is still not great (nothing for those on CF Std, and only 8 containers for CF Enterprise--and that seemingly only on the same box, which is of course then QUITE limiting).
But at least development use of the ACF images is free. And many people do only use Docker for development, or they may not move to prod user for some time. Perhaps by then, Adobe will have improved the situation (more in a moment). But if not, folks could certainly consider Lucee instead.
(Readers finding this later should note that there's nothing about the Ortus CF images that allows for different use in production, either. So this question about licensing of CF images applies to either kind.)
Finally, as for the info on the Adobe site about Docker licensing which I point to, I can't say when it was added (to those FAQs where I found it). So perhaps it was just not there when you tried to find it last year. That said, you may have been looking in the CF EULA, and sadly Docker image use is STILL not covered there (at least in the current version of the PDF pointed to from the Adobe licensing page.
I am getting the sense that Adobe is planning some significant changes regarding both the Docker images and licensing, as well as CF itself with regard to modularity, deployment, etc. That shouldn't stop us documenting what is possible now. I just mean that we can hope that the situation will improve, especially about licensing. Time will tell. :-)
Hi Charlie:
I wrote the bulk of the first draft of this guide shortly after we made the decision to switch to Lucee, which wasn't even really a decision so much as a necessity as we were an ACF11 Standard shop and having to both switch to Enterprise (as one can't use Standard with Commandbox) and also pay twice to go from ACF11 to 2016 and then 2016 to 2018 made the whole question a bit moot.
Things are a lot clearer now and the guide should reflect that, but if you have some indication that they will become clearer still, I have no objection to waiting. Between licensing costs and configuration management, the case for Adobe CF in Docker as of today (August 2019) is manageable but not strong. I'd rather wait and publish a stronger case if one's going to be made, but even more than that the guide's intent is to adopt a position of 'here is what you should expect from a Docker container' and then let the reader judge whether their choice of engine and image is satisfying that. (For example, I understand that Adobe's images are smaller and boot faster than Lucee's. Given that configuration management is only a pain until you've finished it, you could award that round to Adobe -- or be sure to mention that CFConfig works just as well with Adobe images, even if it does require installing Commandbox.)
On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 11:31 AM Charlie Arehart notifications@github.com wrote:
OK, great. Thanks. And congrats on the baby, and enjoy your vacation, of course! :-)
As for the CF licensing, it is actually documented. I did a post in MArch on the Adobe CF portal pointing out the info:
https://coldfusion.adobe.com/2019/03/coldfusion-licensing-docker-containers/
That said, it's still not great (nothing for those on CF Std, and only 8 containers for CF Enterprise), but at least development is free. And many people only use Docker for development, or may not move to prod user for some time. Perhaps by then, Adobe will have improved the situation. But if not, folks could certainly consider Lucee instead.
(Readers finding this later should note that there's nothing about the Ortus CF images that allows for different use in production, either. So this question about licensing of CF images applies to either kind.)
Finally, as for the info on the Adobe site about Docker licensing which I point to, I can't say when it was added (to those FAQs where I found it). So perhaps it was just not there when you tried to find it last year. That said, you may have been looking in the CF EULA, and sadly Docker image use is STILL not covered there (at least in the current version of the PDF https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/legal/licenses-terms/pdf/ColdFusion.pdf pointed to from the Adobe licensing page https://www.adobe.com/legal/licenses-terms.html.
I am getting the sense that Adobe is planning some significant changes regarding both the Docker images and licensing, as well as CF itself with regard to modularity, deployment, etc. That shouldn't stop us documenting what is possible now. I just mean that we can hope that the situation will improve, especially about licensing. Time will tell. :-)
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I understand on considering waiting, to really fold them in. But for the sake of completeness, it seems worth at least mentioning more specifically (where suitable) the existence of the ACF images, and where interested readers can find more. You do that with other things, where you say "we will show x, but there are alternatives like y and z". I wouldn't mind make those proposed tweaks if you're open to them.
To that same point, I was surprised you made no mention of Azure when you discussed DO, AWS, GCE, and other IAAS options. Would you have any objection to me adding mention of it there? I don't sense any anti-MS bias in other aspects of the guide, so I am assuming it was either just an oversight or a reflection of your sense of things back in 2017 or so. But Azure supports containers (Docker) and orchestration (Kubernetes), and may appeal to some readers just as readily as the other options. Here again, it need be no more than the mere mention of it, like when those other are mentioned. Just wanted to check here while we're talking. :-)
No objection to adding more information about Adobe images or Azure at all. We are MS partners and an MSSQL shop. I just happened to end up with DigitalOcean and didn't know enough about Azure to really discuss them.
Particularly in the realm of adding information that we just haven't covered, you don't need my permission - I'll accept any PR that offers a viable alternative, particularly if you're able to contrast it with the options I have covered.
On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 9:08 PM Charlie Arehart notifications@github.com wrote:
I understand on considering waiting, to really fold them in. But for the sake of completeness, it seems worth at least mentioning more specifically (where suitable) the existence of the ACF images, and where interested readers can find more. You do that with other things, where you say "we will show x, but there are alternatives like y and z". I wouldn't mind make those proposed tweaks if you're open to them.
To that same point, I was surprised you made no mention of Azure when you discussed DO, AWS, GCE, and other IAAS options. Would you have any objection to me adding mention of it there? I don't sense any anti-MS bias in other aspects of the guide, so I am assuming it was either just an oversight or a reflection of your sense of things back in 2017 or so. But Azure supports containers (Docker) and orchestration (Kubernetes), and may appeal to some readers just as readily as the other options. Here again, it need be no more than the mere mention of it, like when those other are mentioned. Just wanted to check here while we're talking. :-)
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Thanks. But again, in the case of Azure, I’d really only add its mention (akin to your level of mention of AWS, GCE, etc.). I wouldn’t get into contrasting it, really. :-)
And initially, I’d propose the same about the ACF images. I’d just propose it as an option (in the places you introduce the Ortus CF images), and point to available resources for more info. And then over time I may craft a way to propose more, sure, but as you indicated before, it may pay to hold off until Adobe revises the images—if they will—before folding their actual use into here.
/charlie
Hi Charlie,
Based on this thread:
https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2648828
I am leaning toward pulling all references to Adobe from the guide. I'm also not attending CF Summit (though a couple of our guys are still going).
Up until now I subscribed to the view that, while our individual business needs weren't well met by Adobe, that competition is good for everybody. We were, after all, happy Adobe customers for a while. But this kind of thing is embarrassing and I won't be associated with it.
I'm going to think about this for a couple days but it's tough for me to get away from the notion that that sort of behavior has consequences.
On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 11:31 PM Charlie Arehart notifications@github.com wrote:
Thanks. But again, in the case of Azure, I’d really only add its mention (akin to your level of mention of AWS, GCE, etc.). I wouldn’t get into contrasting it, really. :-)
And initially, I’d propose the same about the ACF images. I’d just propose it as an option (in the places you introduce the Ortus CF images), and point to available resources for more info. And then over time I may craft a way to propose more, sure, but as you indicated before, it may pay to hold off until Adobe revises the images—if they will—before folding their actual use into here.
/charlie
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I understand your initial reaction. You will see that I have participated in that thread and expressed similar dismay. That said, I am not to the point of writing them off entirely. There are many times more customers (indeed, hundreds if not thousands of times more) who are using CF and are NOT yet impacted by this issue, so I will work to continue to help them.
FWIW, I don’t see what I do as “selling” CF but rather assisting those who use it. And I don’t see my helping people to use it as opening the door for them to be abused by this recent sales tactic. I do regard that as something very unfortunate, but I’m not going to stop helping people who use it. And I really hope others will think twice before deciding to shut down in their own providing of assistance, information, and resources to help those who continue to use CF.
/charlie
I mentioned in my last issue the observation that currently the guide focuses only on use of the Ortus images (for Lucee and CF). Those are great, of course. And for many needs, they will suffice.
But would you be open to expanding this great resource to cover those ACF images? They've been out a couple of years, and they are fairly different from the Ortus ones, in implementation and in their use.
I understand if you may not feel it important to cover in this guide. If you may prefer only to point to resources elsewhere that cover them (whether Adobe's or mine I am developing), I could offer that instead.
If you did instead want to consider expanding this guide to cover them, I could propose some changes over time. There would be a few places in need of expamsuon, not to mention the related simple-cfml-complete project showing the compose file and related resources. Or I could offer an equivalent to that as a different project your resource could point to.
I simply want to help people know of those Adobe CF images, and know more about them, as some may be inclined or required to use them. Nearly all other cf/docker resources do of course cover the Ortus commandbox ones, as they have been out longer.
Those commandbox images do also appeal to those wanting to switch easily between CF and Lucee. That said, Lucee has their own images, and perhaps someone would be interested in offering expansion to this guide to cover those also, for the sake of completeness.
All that said, if you may think it too complicated to weave this/these in and just want to let this stand as is, I'd understand. But if you're open to considering suggestions to weave in use of the Adobe CF images, just let me know and I'd propose suggestions when I can.