Origin: Genesis Protocol

[Jin2188]

Design Doc Here:

Genesis Protocol Design Doc.docx

Ideas: • Machine empire that uses Devotion to produce Research Points instead of Unity • Ruler starts with the Conduit of Willpower trait, which converts Devotion into Research Points, Energy, Zro, and Astral Threads (if player owns Astral Planes). • Start on a habitat with the tech to make more habitats, and gain penalties when colonizing non-artificial worlds • Allows seeding Pre-FTL civilizations on worlds with a special megastructure, the Overseer Node, which produces Devotion based on the amount of Pre-FTL pops on the planet below. • Pre-FTL pops produce extra Devotion if the planet is a Gaia World (they see it as their God favoring them) • If one of the Pre-FTL civilizations under your control reaches the Space Age, they will become a special subject type with a special holding that produces Devotion for you, the Overlord • Overseer Node lets you terraform planets. Uninhabitable planets are terraformed into a random habitable class, and habitable planets are terraformed into Gaia Worlds (special interaction with Azaryn, maybe?) • New empire-unique building that can be built on your capital, that functions as a virtual afterlife, growing or assembling pops based on the primitive species on the planets under your control. Assembles Cyborg Pops if Driven Assimilator, otherwise grows Virtual pops, which produce Devotion, have Energy upkeep instead of food, and do not consume housing. Virtual pops cannot migrate or be resettled to other planets. (The idea is that the machine intelligence, being psionically adept to an extent, is taking the souls of recently deceased individuals from the Shroud, so that they can continue to be useful) This building has Devotion upkeep that scales based on the amount of primitive pops under your control.

[Elimdur]

• Ruler starts with the Conduit of Willpower trait

This one needs more info on what the trait is meant to do

• Allows seeding Pre-FTL civilizations on worlds with a Habitat Central Complex or special megastructure over it

I very much am in support for doing it with the central habitat complex instead of adding yet another megastructure, which we would have to create first.

• Observation Posts produce Devotion based on the amount of spiritualist pops on the planet • Pre-FTL pops produce extra Devotion if the planet is a Gaia World (they see it as their God favoring them) • Special decision on Habitat Central Complexes that lets you terraform the planet below. Uninhabitable planets are terraformed into a random habitable class, and habitable planets are terraformed into Gaia Worlds (special interaction with Azaryn, maybe?)

I'm not sure we have to go to the lengths of requiring the pops to have a specific ethic. Then we have to check whether overwrites are necessary for the observation post to produce a different resource. If so I would opt for having a special building on the habitat instead doing that. We could combine it with my idea of using a building line for terraforming the planet.

• my idea for this would be: after some thinking about this, central habitat placement is a tricky thing to make the ai understand. rather we can check for the presence of existing habitable worlds and that then opens up the ability to build our special buildings on the habitat. Problem in us requiring buildings means we make the limited available building slots even more limited, but on a positive note this adds something for the player to think about and plan for
• let us say you can build one observation building per ftl civilization in the system (this way we do not have to change the observation post mechanics) I think we can use variables for this
• then there is the thing about gaiaforming: i think we can add another building line similar to the idyllic bloom one. instead of affecting our colony on the habitat it would effect ALL habitable planets in the system, have high upkeep but also increasing the output of the other buildings - we need to have a reason to keep it in place or build it if you already have the planet gaia in the first place or terraformed otherwise

• If one of the Pre-FTL civilizations under your control reaches the Space Age, they will become a special subject type that produces Devotion for you, the Overlord

There is a big issue with this that we haven't seen yesterday: When the primitives get spacefaring, they either get the system (INCLUDING your habitat) or are integrated into your empire. Both options are bad for us. In this case it might be better to prevent them from reaching space age in the first place.

• The origin must block you from hostile interactions with primitives - no invasions, no bombardment, no exterminatus

[TranslatorIV]

In this case it might be better to prevent them from reaching space age in the first place.

Maybe a flavor event where we are notified when they reach the industrial age and use false rumors and superstitions to regress them back to medieval.

As for Gaiaforming. I like the idea of a building that terraforms system planets. Maybe have it so the building is required to maintain a non natural Gaia environment, and when it is gone all terraformed worlds(probably has a flag) regresses to a tomb world with a massive empire debuff because they failed their protocol.

[Elimdur]

Maybe a flavor event where we are notified when they reach the industrial age and use false rumors and superstitions to regress them back to medieval.

I think the least problematic and mechanically easiest way is for our special building to flag all present pre-ftl countries at machine age or above in the system with a permanent flag (the one they get after advancing an age which is normally just timed). then the building gets an effect for on destroy, which checks if there is no other building of the kind present to remove those flags - you would want the empires to get their vanilla behaviour back if some other empire conquers the system.

We would need an additional yearly pulse targeting all applicable countries to get those pre ftls that advance after the building is built too.

As for Gaiaforming. I like the idea of a building that terraforms system planets. Maybe have it so the building is required to maintain a non natural Gaia environment, and when it is gone all terraformed worlds(probably has a flag) regresses to a tomb world with a massive empire debuff because they failed their protocol.

In my opinion differentiating between planets which reached gaia state using our method and ones which got it a vanilla way is more bothersome than it is worth. On the otherhand the idyllic bloom way offers a bonus for having the building despite the gaia transformation process already being complete. I think this approach is easier to implement and understand for the player.

[TreeM4n]

There is a big issue with this that we haven't seen yesterday: When the primitives get spacefaring, they either get the system (INCLUDING your habitat) or are integrated into your empire. Both options are bad for us. In this case it might be better to prevent them from reaching space age in the first place.

The origin must block you from hostile interactions with primitives - no invasions, no bombardment, no exterminatus

We could also make something like the Dark Forest Origin, where advanced primitive just get to be a friendly country chilling in the system. I don't know if that takes a lot of effort to do. Or we could also make the story go: "The machines are not interested in FTL organics and try their everything to never let them reach that age".

We don't have to block those hostile interactions via overwrites, each one can have a ridiculous increase in price and high difficulty.

Also, 1 idea which I want to throw into the room. What if colonization triggers all of this, meaning: you build an expansive (custom) colony ship which upon landing triggers the construction of a habitat above and primitive seeding on the planet. You get the habitat for yourself and don't need to build an extra building. The primitives are already established.

[Elimdur]

We don't have to block those hostile interactions via overwrites, each one can have a ridiculous increase in price and high difficulty.

My hope is that we can lock someone with the origin into a specific pre-ftl policy in order to prevent those actions.

[TreeM4n]

My hope is that we can lock someone with the origin into a specific pre-ftl policy in order to prevent those actions.

Don't think you can lock policies. Only option I see for that route is a really long cooldown.

[TranslatorIV]

There is a big issue with this that we haven't seen yesterday: When the primitives get spacefaring, they either get the system (INCLUDING your habitat) or are integrated into your empire. Both options are bad for us. In this case it might be better to prevent them from reaching space age in the first place.

Apparently primitives use a progress bar situation pre_ftl_tech_progress_situation to advance tech which is shown in 03_AI_empire_situations.txt country flag tech_frozen seems to give a progress multiplier of 0 I think. Maybe use this?

[Jin2188]

I'm not sure we have to go to the lengths of requiring the pops to have a specific ethic. Then we have to check whether overwrites are necessary for the observation post to produce a different resource. If so I would opt for having a special building on the habitat instead doing that. We could combine it with my idea of using a building line for terraforming the planet.

We should at least require them to not be materialist (and maybe not xenophobe either) because that wouldn't make since if they're supposed to be worshipping. I believe overwrites would be necessary to change production, but we could create a new observation mission that produces Devotion instead. Only problem is that we would have to block the other observation missions, which would require overwrites.

There is a big issue with this that we haven't seen yesterday: When the primitives get spacefaring, they either get the system (INCLUDING your habitat) or are integrated into your empire. Both options are bad for us. In this case it might be better to prevent them from reaching space age in the first place.

I like the idea of the special subject type and Pre-FTLs being able to reach the Space Age, so I have a solution:

We go with the custom megastructure (I know you guys are booing, but hear me out) which we can use vanilla assets for. This megastructure produces Devotion based on the amount of spiritualist or non-materialist pops on the planet below. When the Pre-FTL civ reaches the Space Age, destroy the megastructure via event and replace it with a custom holding that checks for the entire empire instead of just the one planet. (Think of it as the Kingdom of Heaven coming down to Earth, would make a good Revelations reference)

I still want to use habitats, since that gives more room for the machine pops as well. Maybe prevent habitats from being built in systems with habitable planets?

[TranslatorIV]

I'll just quickly make a megastructure to test if its feasible because I already have a mod that has the framework for such a thing.

edit: I just used the observation outpost entity. I managed to make the thing except for the whole when they reach the space age thing. Don't know how thats gonna work.

[Jin2188]

I managed to make the thing except for the whole when they reach the space age thing. Don't know how thats gonna work.

There are events that fire after they gain FTL. Maybe there's an on action?

[Jin2188]

I found an event called preftl.0, although I can't figure out where it fires from.

[Jin2188]

Okay, I think in order to make them be the special subject type once they get FTL, we may have to overwrite the preftl.1099 event. I know we want to avoid doing overwrites, but I doubt very many mods overwrite this specific event, so it should be pretty harmless.

[TranslatorIV]

If we want no overwrites, we could add a pulse event that checks for early space age primitives within borders and adds the tech_frozen flag to stop them from naturally progressing. Then advance them using another event that will turn them into a vassal nation. That is, if we were to go down this path. My suggestion is to just use the tech_frozen flag after seeding the planet and advancing their tech through things like espionage. They are being regulated after all.

[Jin2188]

Perhaps, but I don't want primitives at the very beginning of the Early Space Age to immediately gain FTL, so there should be a check on the progress towards FTL. It would make sense to freeze their technology since they're being regulated, but advancing their tech through espionage would probably take way too long.

[TranslatorIV]

We can make custom espionage events since we are actively trying to plant technology with them knowing something is out there. An espionage event that just triggers the next stage of technology instead of just adding progress seems short enough.

[Jin2188]

My question is why we even need to freeze the tech at all. Maybe for immersion purposes, but is there a functional reason outside of that?

[TranslatorIV]

Freezing the tech is a way to have no overwrites at all. Otherwise we will need overwrites for when they reach FTL. Any overwrite will most likely conflict with other primitive mods. It's also much easier to deal with vanilla behavior like losing the system when all you need to do is just add or remove a flag.

[TranslatorIV]

I'm a little more open to overwrites after getting more than 2 hours of sleep but I'm not sold on the vassal idea. The game does not like special country type vassals it seems and special country types are the only way to have borderless vassals as far as I know. It crashed for me. Maybe something like the consecrated worlds modifier for the country to represent vassalization?

[Elimdur]

Ok, let us look at the vassal theme from another perspective. Instead of thinking how we could accomplish it, I would like to hear compelling reasons for us to even want to have them in the first place.

Specifically: What do these One-Planet-Minors offer us that we cannot otherwise simulate without the hassle of creating these in the first place?

My answer is clear. I do not see any real benefit in having them become spacefaring. It just creates more potential problems, which we wouldn't have otherwise

Then regarding the devotion mechanic: It only really makes sense to have a special and hopefully limited resource if by using it for whatever purpose you can do something that isn't already covered by other stuff. Otherwise it is just more of the same and does not really justify its existence as a separate resource. So that part should be planned out and presented in a written form so we can get a bigger picture.

For the megastructure versus habitat debate. I'm not sold on placing megastructures everywhere for this purpose. Think a step further. If these systems get lost in a war, these things will likely stick around. Not great. Doing it with buildings on a habitat, which can easily get removed when being conquered is a cleaner way. Also why, IF we have use a special resource, bind it to a static megastructure, when we can have jobs for our pops (provided by the buildings) to then produce the resource with?

And regarding the primitives' ethics, I'd honestly could not care less about whether they are spritualist, materialist or even gestalt. What our machine empire does is in accordance with its programming. They aren't doing it for the sake of the primitives but for the sake or their programming so everything that comes from fullfilling it can be seen as selfgratification. The devotion does not come from the primitives, rather it comes from the machine pops that fulfill their purpose in filling out the according jobs.

[TranslatorIV]

Tried Buildings, megastructures, and Observation post missions. Can confirm buildings are slightly less complicated.

[TreeM4n]

Then regarding the devotion mechanic: It only really makes sense to have a special and hopefully limited resource if by using it for whatever purpose you can do something that isn't already covered by other stuff. Otherwise it is just more of the same and does not really justify its existence as a separate resource. So that part should be planned out and presented in a written form so we can get a bigger picture.

Maybe add some more use cases for devotion. We could even go as far as adding a progress tracker event chain, where the machines unlock new powers upon unlocking new "devotion tiers". Similar to become the crisis or your leader Malthus.

As of right now, I don't see a good reason to add devotion.

For the megastructure versus habitat debate. I'm not sold on placing megastructures everywhere for this purpose. Think a step further. If these systems get lost in a war, these things will likely stick around. Not great. Doing it with buildings on a habitat, which can easily get removed when being conquered is a cleaner way. Also why, IF we have use a special resource, bind it to a static megastructure, when we can have jobs for our pops (provided by the buildings) to then produce the resource with?

And regarding the primitives' ethics, I'd honestly could not care less about whether they are spritualist, materialist or even gestalt. What our machine empire does is in accordance with its programming. They aren't doing it for the sake of the primitives but for the sake or their programming so everything that comes from fullfilling it can be seen as selfgratification. The devotion does not come from the primitives, rather it comes from the machine pops that fulfill their purpose in filling out the according jobs.

I think there are 2 narratives right now. One where the machines create pre-ftl to be worshiped and another where they create pre-ftl to observe and abide their programming.

First, we should make a clear picture for ourselves, what the machines are supposed to be programmed for and what their goal is.

[Jin2188]

Specifically: What do these One-Planet-Minors offer us that we cannot otherwise simulate without the hassle of creating these in the first place?

If they become spacefaring, they get the opportunity to grow and gain more pops. More pops = more Devotion.

The devotion does not come from the primitives, rather it comes from the machine pops that fulfill their purpose in filling out the according jobs.

It does come from the primitives, that's... kind of the whole point. The primitives are worshipping the machine intelligence as their god, so the Devotion comes from the ones worshipping. That's why I wanted to check if they were spiritualist or at least not materialist.

For the megastructure versus habitat debate. I'm not sold on placing megastructures everywhere for this purpose. Think a step further. If these systems get lost in a war, these things will likely stick around. Not great.

Just add a self-destruct pulse event that checks if the megastructure is not owned by an empire with the origin. It's not as clean as using a building, but it solves that issue at least.

Also why, IF we have use a special resource, bind it to a static megastructure, when we can have jobs for our pops (provided by the buildings) to then produce the resource with?

See above. The whole point is that it's not the machine pops producing the resource, but the primitives that are worshipping them. The best way to simulate this without overwriting strata is something that dynamically changes its output based on the amount of pops on the planet that are worshipping the machine intelligence. The_wandering_modder already made a megastructure, so it wouldn't be that hard to implement one. I think it's the best option if we're going to allow for them to become spacefaring.