Closed GoogleCodeExporter closed 9 years ago
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9 years ago Correction to this statement: This will give the enemy a fighting chance to get
even with me if I declare them enemy then quickly decide to change my mind and
declare them an ALLY.Original comment by GokouZ...@gmail.com on 3 Jan 2012 at 8:55
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9 years ago There are two war modes. One is an event that you toggle ingame. That one is
where you have every single town in every single nation added (that's not
neutral) where there are multiple goals.
War (Event) end when there remains only one nation in existance (in other
words, everything else but that nation is deleted). This is done by killing
monarchs, claiming non-allied (note that it isn't specifically 'enemy') land,
and bankrupting towns. Nations are deleted when there remains no more towns.
Eventually reaching the end condition. Note, unless you want chaos and to
delete everything on your server, this mode is reaaaaally terrible.
The other mode is a constant that you have to change in the config (no ingame
toggle command) (war.event.allow_attacks). This mode uses the flags.
- The countdown to the war event is fucked over. Mainly because the countdown
is relative to gameticks instead of time.
@Suggestions:
- Being attacked makes the attacker your enemy. Basically wars must be
initiated by either your king/assistant or by the enemy. The option to automate
the process would then allow the nation to be compromised by any idiot, this
suggestion would required the nation to have another toggleable variable to
prevent this feature.
- The claimed tax was in mind when I was doing the eco part of it.Original comment by zrenf...@gmail.com on 4 Jan 2012 at 1:21
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9 years ago Allow me to share some insight on how I think you can help yourself in
resolving these issues. Ultimately this is your mod so I'm not going to say you
have to do this, but these are some points I've noticed here that will kill you
in the end:
1) Minecraft is a sandbox game. Embrace that fact and don't set limits to when
war is over or not over. The players should be able to decide when it starts
and when its over. Minecraft's limits are as far as the player can imagine, to
make your mod successful, your mod needs to follow those sandbox guidelines as
well or you'll limit yourself and your mod. Ultimately that's up to you, but
the mod should modify the base game, not change the base game into something
else entirely. If you're trying to setup a new game mode, then great that's
what you're doing with war by saying "war is over when only one nation stands".
Ultimately that's what would end up happening, but it may or may not be how the
players want it. Nation A wants to go to war against nation B, but nation C
says he supports nation B and attacks Nation A with Nation C. Nation C and B
destroy nation A, and "war is over" because those two nations can agree to live
together peacefully. You should want your mod to be able to handle that
situation and allow it. It'll increase it's value to administrators who want to
live with a "mini-war" situation.
2) Your mod should be about policing permissions between player A and player
B's LAND. Nothing else. Nation A, Town B, or alliance C are merely methods of
declaring to other players that "we are a team". The formation of that official
team costs money, so players don't HAVE to do it, they can declare it without
having to form a nation if they want. The benefit of forming a nation says
"we're bigger than you, don't mess with us," and "we all agree to play together
nicely under this flag." If a single player doesn't like what a nation is
doing, their choice is to stay or leave that town/nation and form their own (if
they can afford to do so). There's no other reason for an alliance to form. An
alliance is just that, a group of players who believe the same ideals. You
shouldn't force them into a nation in order to go to war against each other.
Let players decide to go to war against other players if they choose to do so.
Keep your mod lightweight and out of their disputes.
3) Those that wish to form a town and run it can do so if they can afford it
according to how the server admins set it, however when they do, if player A
decides he wants Player B's land he should be able to go to "war" against him
to forcibly take it from him by placing a flag on his lot to claim that part of
the world for himself. If the admin of the server forces player A and Player B
to live in peace by saying "Once player A declares land is theirs, the only way
it goes away is if they go broke, or they unclaim the land. There will be no
Wars here." then they should be able to do that. Again, keep the limitations
light. Let players decide what is theirs and what isn't. If a player is a part
of a town, then that town is being attacked when a player places that flag on
their lot. That nation or town should consider the apposing nation or town as
the ones who are attacking. Then they open diplomatic negotiations to say "Do
something about your player attacking us, or we will." Thus allowing nation /
town A to attack player B directly themselves. Nation / town B says, "If you
enter our land we will attack you." so be it...or they can also say "Do with
him what you will, we won't stop you." Either way, it should be up to the
players how it plays out. Your mod only polices the permissions of that land.
Setting limits or "end conditions" to your wars forces the hand of the player
which isn't wise in a sandbox game. If you want this thing to be successful
then you need to embrace the sandbox method and allow the players freedom to
choose how their world is formed and allow them to transform the world into
something they want either by force, or by economic victory, or by any victory
they choose. If someone rage quits, that's a victory too because they surrender
their land to someone else's ideals because they no longer stake that claim.
Which in a sense is "killing" a player. Since a player cannot be "killed" in
minecraft, having an end condition that says "war is over when a monarch dies"
is pretty crazy because no one can die officially. So what you're trying to do
is change the base game mechanic and that's not a good idea. You'll limit
yourself and your player base. They're not dead until they decide not to return
to the server. Then they're dead in the sense that minecraft allows.
The war, or the lack of war, should be between player A and player B. If player
A wants to form a town of people who want to live with him, then great. The
admin can choose to say "if you want to form a town then you need X money to do
so and we'll allow you to claim X plots of land for X dollars as long as you
can continue to pay X amount each X cycle." That's the freedom players are
going to want from your mod. Then your mod polices the fact that when player B
enters Player A's land, it won't allow him to build, open doors, and steal from
player A on his land.
Now if the admin says "War is allowed" then if player A wants to take player
B's land, then player A places a flag on that players lot and says "This is
mine! Stop me from taking it." and they fight over the land. Again, the key
here is the land. Now what a town formation does is says that when player A
comes to player B's land and tries to take it, Town A says "We will defend his
land together as a team because Player B pays us taxes to us." If they don't
want to defend his land, then that should tell player B he joined the wrong
town. He can then choose to say "i'm not paying taxes to you anymore, thus
removing the town's rights to that peice of land, but then it also forces that
player's land to become wild land and then loses the protection of it. He then
has to move his plot 5 town blocks away and then he can form his own town and
pay the server the fees associated with the maintance of having that protection
of his land. Ultimately though, if player A wants to be a dick to player B,
that forces the hand of Player A's nation/town no matter what. The nation/town
deals with that guy by removing him from under their flag and taking back his
land or destroying what he's done.
For example: My town allows all residents the ability to build in the town. We
all agree that we formed the town in the fact that everyone can do anything in
the "public" areas of the town. If someone wants to do anything, they claim a
lot, pay taxes to the city to allow them the freedom to make whatever they
want. Well one guy started doing stuff we didn't like in the public areas and
extended his "freedom" of his lot beyond the limits of what we sold him. So we
asked him to take it down and he wouldn't, so we removed it ourselves from the
public area. Shortly thereafter he goes and puts it back up. So what do we do?
We exile him from our town and say "Go build your own town because your ideals
don't match ours." That's how a nation deals with people who want to be a dick
to other players or even dicks within their town to other residents. A
town/nation either supports that player in what they do and force a war on
themselves because he went and tried to claim land that wasn't part of the
nation or they don't support him and kick him out. That player takes the risk
that he'll be kicked out if he goes and does something they won't support.
My world - I want to make it so everyone can decide to live in peace with each
other or they can choose to wage war over land. Your mod may or may not fit
that ideal to me. I like how your mod moderates the purchase of land and how it
allows players to claim land, but I don't like the limits set on the players.
When one nation declares another an enemy, the enemy should not be able to say
"you're my friend" and force it upon them. So when one player places a flag on
another person's lot, it should be between person A and person B ultimately.
And how town/nation A responds to one of their citizens being attacked should
be up to them. They can declare that nation/town their enemy and force the two
into PvP within their town limits thus giving permission to the people to
attack one another if seen within their town limits, or give them the ability
to exile player A and player B from their towns and force them to settle their
differences outside their nation/towns.
The point here is, don't set limits on how your mod works. Giving rules to how
players give permissions to their claimed land is exactly what you're doing.
But when you say "war = X" then you limit yourself. Put too many limits on it,
and they'll use a different mod, which is fine if you're going for a specific
nitch of players. From what I can tell though, I don't think that's your intent
here. My ultimate suggestion is that you need to make it so the mod does a
specific task. That task should be - Bring order to the chaos that would be a
normal minecraft server and police the give or take permissions of land from
one person and give it to another either forcibly or peacefully depending on
how the administrator of the server wants to run their world.Original comment by GokouZ...@gmail.com on 4 Jan 2012 at 1:42
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commented
9 years ago None of this was really any good, since he was using release to test and not
the dev, which has the fixes for war.Original comment by Hurfapotamus@gmail.com on 4 Jan 2012 at 5:11
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9 years ago yep, i'm using the non-dev release. I'll be upgrading to 1.32 either tonight or
this friday for weekend testing.Original comment by GokouZ...@gmail.com on 4 Jan 2012 at 6:55
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commented
9 years ago 2) Right, because people would totally let their permissions down mutually.
They could just join an opposing alliance. Yes, I do admit that Nations are big
pain in the butt.
3) A nation can be neutral (aka not able to attack of be attacked).
3 P2) They, are, options.
Ideas spawned from the conversation:
- war.enemy.must_have_min_range_of_control: true
- war.enemy.min_range_of_control_hor: 16
- war.enemy.min_range_of_control_vert: 6
- With the options above, the flag-breaker must kill all non-allied players in
that radius from the flag. Now the question remain... relative to the breaker?
Normal: kill all enemies/neutrals...
Nevermind, kill all enemies.
Normal: kill all enemies.
Backstabber (Spy): Kill all of the defeneders (stab). Not the best.
Kill all enemies relative to the flagbearer.Original comment by zrenf...@gmail.com on 4 Jan 2012 at 7:26
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commented
9 years ago Again, I'm not really too sure about any of this because I don't have the
latest release of the war stuff. I'm still using your 77.1.0 release. I've been
told the 77.1.32 has a lot of this stuff fixed and worked out so I'm going to
load that up and we'll do another test this weekend to see.
To me, you're over thinking it. Let the player place the flag no matter what.
When the flag is placed, that player is staking a claim on that plot only. He's
saying "I'm requesting permissions be given to me for this plot." The server is
saying to whoever owns that lot "I'm going to give this person permissions to
do stuff on your lot if you don't do something about it right now." Nothing
else should matter to the mod. How many people online helps the defenders out
so yeah leave that in, but outside that...who cares? If the owner of the plot
doesn't come and make his claim on that lot, the attacker should be given
rights to it because the owner doesn't care anymore.
Nations themselves aren't the pain, it's the fact that you guys are trying to
make them into something they won't be naturally. A nation is more or less an
allegiance ON PAPER between two or more towns. The wars should be between towns
and then nations are merely a flag to fight under as a team. It allows players
to /nc to coordinate an attack on a mutual enemy, but outside that the nation
is nothing on it's own. Without towns, a nation is nothing. By forcing you to
be in a nation in order to attack makes no sense because it's not one nation vs
another nation, it's literally one mayor vs another mayor, or group of mayors.
It's even one person vs another when it comes to combat. Larger towns just have
a bunch of people backing up that mayor, and then nations have a bunch of
mayors and his residents who are backing up another mayor and his residents.
Don't try to over think it...it's one vs many, or one vs one or many vs many.
Who's flag they fly under is unimportant to you (or shouldn't be important)
because your mod should be doing one thing: Managing the land permissions they
own. If you focus on that, you'll make a better product and one that's more
flexible. When two people go to war, you only need to hand off the permissions
of one plot to the victor. That's all you should be concerned with. Determining
who won, and who lost is not something you should worry about IMO unless you're
trying to make a war mod, which you could do as a plugin feature to this one
expanding it's capabilities if someone wants to have organized PvP with a set
goal. Think modular when you're writing this code because that will make your
mod a lot more scalable when it comes to future releases or expansions of it.Original comment by GokouZ...@gmail.com on 4 Jan 2012 at 8:32
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commented
9 years ago Original comment by LlmD...@gmail.com on 5 Feb 2012 at 12:18
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commented
9 years ago Since my problem hasnt been resolved have any of you ever dealt with flags just
not spawning, is it permissions or is not having the dev a problem
Original comment by 13rmcl...@sacopeevalleyschools.org on 16 Sep 2012 at 4:37
GoogleCodeExporter
commented
9 years ago ticket is too old to be effective, thanks though!Original comment by LlmD...@gmail.com on 9 Oct 2012 at 5:29
Original issue reported on code.google.com by
GokouZ...@gmail.comon 3 Jan 2012 at 8:51