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Add jonringer as a board observer #133

Closed jonringer closed 2 months ago

jonringer commented 2 months ago

Moving forward, I would also like to participate in these discussions.

NixOS has been (and still is) a big part of my life, and would like to see both the technology and community succeed.

About me (for people coming from https://mastodon.delroth.net/@delroth/112236013811613910):

This is the culmination of 3 years of doing part-time to full time volunteer work on Nixpkgs, before burning out due to politically charged individuals in the community 2 years ago.

EDIT: Hello people from the internet, if you could also review https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/171 before downvoting, it would be much appreciated.

jonringer commented 2 months ago

Wish I would get this much engagement on my PRs to Nixpkgs :)

TravisWhitaker commented 2 months ago

What's the process for this? I'd also be interested.

paperdigits commented 2 months ago

The board meetings are open. Just show up.

jonringer commented 2 months ago

The board meetings are open. Just show up.

Aye, will do ;)

Lewiscowles1986 commented 2 months ago

Just gonna link this here... https://discourse.nixos.org/t/objection-to-minority-representation-by-a-single-class-in-nixos-sponsorship-policy/42968/21

zimbatm commented 2 months ago

Hi Jon,

The board reviewed your application, and decided to reject it given the current situation.

Board observership is meant to keep strong bonds between the board and the community as a whole. This means that observers must be figures trusted by the community, and the current controversy does not put you in such a place at the moment.

We’re also not in a situation where we can afford a new observer as we’ve just onboarded Janik and don’t want to expand too quickly.

I hope this makes sense to you, Jonas

jonringer commented 2 months ago

Board observership is meant to keep strong bonds between the board and the community as a whole. This means that observers must be figures trusted by the community,

I don't think unanimous trust by all members of the community is a reasonable bar. Nix is a world-wide diverse community, not everyone is going to favor me or another member.

I put my name in because I don't think there's any representation for the portion of the community who want Nix to remain largely non-political. It is a community centered around a technology, why can't we all just be equals?

and the current controversy does not put you in such a place at the moment.

If you're referring to https://discourse.nixos.org/t/objection-to-minority-representation-by-a-single-class-in-nixos-sponsorship-policy/42968/19, I was arguing:

Public defamation, humiliation, and broad generalization of my character on many social media platforms should not count against me as an observer.

We’re also not in a situation where we can afford a new observer as we’ve just onboarded Janik and don’t want to expand too quickly.

My assumption was that the role of responsibility was mostly on the observer (and other board members) to stay aware of foundation concerns, and be able to converge on decisions relevant to the board. I'm not aware of any significant on-boarding cost for the board, but would be happy to be proven wrong.

I hope this makes sense to you,

I don't know how to interpret this other than, "I'm yielding to appease this vocal mob, and I don't wish to become the victim like you".

zimbatm commented 2 months ago

Don't be ridiculous, Jon. Where did we say "unanimous trust"? Look at the board composition; where are you not represented? Once again, you are not listening and framing this about politics instead of thinking about the people behind the issues. Of course, I am not blind that there are ideologies involved, but you have to be able to look past that and see that the people you are attacking are mostly just like you; they want to be able to hack on Nix without having to wonder where the next attack is going to come from. Until you fail to see that, I don't think your involvement is going to helpful.

This is my POV, and not an official statement of the board.

jonringer commented 2 months ago

Where did we say "unanimous trust"?

"community as a whole" is similar to "everyone"

Look at the board composition; where are you not represented?

I feel that Nix (the tool) is represented by the foundation members, but not "the nixpkgs community". The narrative that "they are observing on behalf of the greater nixpkgs community" is absurd, they do not speak for me and many others.

look past that and see that the people you are attacking

I don't think I've been personally attacking anyone. Rather, I've been consistently on the receiving end of a steady stream of attacks. Where's my voice? My agency? My individuality.

they want to be able to hack on Nix without having to wonder where the next attack is going to come from.

Not from me.

Until you fail to see that, I don't think your involvement is going to helpful.

I agree, I don't think it's going to be helpful with their "we are the Nix community" narrative, that was the point. Representation of folks who don't align with people coercive actions like https://save-nix-together.org/.

With some of the word usage in that document, I have a sneaking suspicion that my head is next on the chopping block.

piegamesde commented 2 months ago

I don't think I've been personally attacking anyone. Rather, I've been consistently on the receiving end of a steady stream of attacks. Where's my voice? My agency? My individuality.

You're acting like a very loud bull in a china shop who doesn't understand why everybody is yelling at you for breaking things. Just look around you!

jonringer commented 2 months ago

You're acting like a very loud bull in a china shop who doesn't understand why everybody is yelling at you for breaking things. Just look around you!

I also have people personally messaging me and thanking me for standing up for them, or at least this "mob rule" (as one person put it). Just because some interactions are public and other private, doesn't mean that the totality of the situation can be distilled from a single perspective.

piegamesde commented 2 months ago

I tell you "look at all the broken pieces lying around and people hurt by it" and your answer is "a handful of people applauded me in private"?

jonringer commented 2 months ago

I tell you "look at all the broken pieces lying around and people hurt by it" and your answer is "a handful of people applauded me in private"?

I'm not doxxing people, asking people in DMs to resign, drafting extortion-like public letters, or using social media to target individuals.

But that is the current state of Nix.

paperdigits commented 2 months ago

Where's my voice? My agency? My individuality.

This isn't about you individually, but about representation. The things you've questioned are represented here:

I feel that Nix (the tool) is represented by the foundation members,

If you're represented by the board, as you feel you are, then you're represented in the group, and thus:

but not "the nixpkgs community"

is not valid.

"they are observing on behalf of the greater nixpkgs community" is absurd, they do not speak for me and many others.

Yes but you're being spoken for by your representation on the board, so again you're represented in the group.

I don't think it's going to be helpful with their "we are the Nix community" narrative, that was the point.

You might read their statement as "we are the whole community" but you would be incorrect in that reading, just as they are incorrect in stating that they are the whole community. The addition of your incorrect reading doesn't result in a net positive.

I'm not doxxing people, asking people in DMs to resign, drafting extortion-like public letters, or using social media to target individuals.

As already stated, you should report those people, they should be banned. If you have reported and they have not been banned, you should raise it as a separate issue.

It is disheartening that we're still at this level of bickering from all sides at this point.

samueldr commented 2 months ago

@jonringer, if you're this unhappy with how this is going, feel free to fork.

epetousis commented 2 months ago

I'm not doxxing people

@jonringer I'm not a foundation member, but I would argue that your usage of the word "doxxing" is misleading, as you admit that your place of employment is neither private nor difficult to find. Whether or not that place of employment is relevant is a separate discussion, so why do you feel the need to keep using this terminology to strengthen your arguments? This seems like an attempt to incite drama and/or derail discussion.

nixos-discourse commented 2 months ago

This pull request has been mentioned on NixOS Discourse. There might be relevant details there:

https://discourse.nixos.org/t/board-reviewing-open-items/44095/4

nixos-discourse commented 2 months ago

This pull request has been mentioned on NixOS Discourse. There might be relevant details there:

https://discourse.nixos.org/t/why-was-jon-ringer-banned-from-github/44114/23

nixos-discourse commented 2 months ago

This pull request has been mentioned on NixOS Discourse. There might be relevant details there:

https://discourse.nixos.org/t/delroths-muting-in-the-moderation-matrix-room/44090/31