establish nomenclature - Githubissues

fricklerhandwerk commented 2 years ago

we observe confusion around terminology, as newcomers find it hard to distinguish all the things that are called Nix.

proposal: https://github.com/NixOS/nix.dev/pull/263

Previous discussion: https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/835#issue-138660150

fricklerhandwerk commented 2 years ago

@garbas @infinisil who else from should be involved with this?

fricklerhandwerk commented 2 years ago

@garbas alternatively proposes (to keep backwards compatibility for names and improve discoverability):

NixOS package manager
NixOS language
NixOS packages
NixOS Linux distribution

We stay on nixos.org and make extra effort to make clear that NixOS package manager works everywhere.

davidak commented 2 years ago

make clear that NixOS package manager works everywhere.

that name makes it not intuitive and cause confusion

olafklingt commented 2 years ago

I agree with most of the initial proposal. But nixpkgs is more than a Nix package collection. Therefor I suggest to call the github:nixpkgs repository Nixpkgs and describe its as biggest collection of Nix Packages and Nix Library and NixOS Modules.

fricklerhandwerk commented 2 years ago

@Ericson2314 we should rename the language, "Nix language" is a mouthful
- @Mic92 "Nix expression language" even worse
  - renaming requires sweeping changes
    - @Ericson2314 that's what the documentation team is for, it should have permissions to do such at thing
- @fricklerhandwerk concerned about social cost
  - even renaming starting from some release means we would have yet another resource inaccessible to discovery
  - will create a lot for friction for existing and new users
  - cost is prohibitive, ecosystem is so large that no one can pull off the concerted effort required to do this
  - should go incrementally, rather have verbose naming than breaking compatibility
  - @olafklingt agree, but nixpkgs is more than just the package collection: also library and module collection
    - @fricklerhandwerk the modules being in nixpkgs top level is a historical artifact
      - @olaf there is no progress on splitting them apart more clearly
        
        also the repository nixpkgs contains the package collection nixpkgs
      - @fricklerhandwerk next time go through proposal bit by bit to make a bundle for marketing and foundation to take or leave, document discarded alternatives

nixos-discourse commented 2 years ago

This issue has been mentioned on NixOS Discourse. There might be relevant details there:

https://discourse.nixos.org/t/2022-08-11-documentation-team-meeting-7/20918/1

oneingan commented 2 years ago

Normally when new language choose a common word add "lang" suffix:

golang (formerly, before be mainstream) https://cuelang.org https://www.rust-lang.org https://dhall-lang.org

maybe nixlang have sense??

at least for separate domains nixos.org and nixlang.org

nix
nixos
nixpkgs
nixlang

olafklingt commented 2 years ago

@uningan what is nix in your list?

nix
nixos
nixpkgs
nixlang

oneingan commented 2 years ago

nix, the tool only, but maybe have more sense nixpm as npm analogy.

Anyway is hard to me imagine nix tool as a package manager, officially it is but i dont use it as package manager, but build system.

From: olaf @.***> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 02:59:12 -0700

@uningan what is nix in your list?
nix
nixos
nixpkgs
nixlang

-- Juanjo Presa https://nadanix.com

olafklingt commented 2 years ago

Here is another try:

I add various terms because I believe we need nomenclature and categorization to clarify the use of the terms.

Nix ecosystem
- Nix package manager [short: Nix]
  - Nix command line interface [short: Nix-cli]
  - Nix demon
- Nix language [short: Nix-lang]
  - Nix expression
  - Nix file
  - Nix conventions
    - Module
    - Overlay
    - Flake
- Nix package repository [short: Nixpkgs]
  - Nix package collection
  - Nix library
  - NixOS module collection
NixOS [long: Nix Operating System]

explanation:

Nix package manager is still a package manager in the same sense as (rust's) cargo, despite their scope is bigger than let say (debian's) apt.

NixOS is not part of the Nix ecosystem because it is build using the Nix ecosystem.

Nix package manager's short name is unfortunately nix because alternatives would seem to imply that we have a command like nixpm etc. but we have nix- (and nix ).

Nix package collection refers to the actual packages in the nixpkgs repository (and other repositories),

Nix package repository refers to the repository nixpkgs that contains the package collection, library and modules

NixOS module collection are the Modules in the Nix package repository , because home-manger uses its own collection of modules for user configuration/services (which do not depend on NixOS).

blaggacao commented 2 years ago

We stay on nixos.org and make extra effort to make clear that NixOS package manager works everywhere.

My senses tell me that people currently reject Nix, when it is recommended to them, because (among other things) when they see nixos.org, they see "OS" and feel invaded.

EDIT:

I feel the multiple semantic mismatches of github/nixpkgs/ "Nix Package Repository" need to be resolved one way or the other.

In my opinion, each semantic dissonance matters disproportionally.

I don't want to jump into a proposal but rather raise this awareness to the Doc Team.

EDIT2:

Nix package manager is still a package manager in the same sense as (rust's) cargo, despite their scope is bigger than let say (debian's) apt.

That is problematic. nix is multiple things, and package manager is really just a prominent and widespread use.

I would minimally distinguish:

The Language Evaluator (containing build capabilities as part of the language's features)
"More"

See for example this perspective: https://divnix.github.io/std/explain/why-nix.html

That perspective would come across as a categorical misfit if Nix was called foremost a "package manager".

fricklerhandwerk commented 2 years ago

I don't want to jump into a proposal but rather raise this awareness to the Doc Team.

@blaggacao Awareness exists, please check the team meeting notes. I ask you and everyone else, as a measure to keep signal-to-noise ratio high to indeed jump immediately to proposals or constructively discuss prior proposals so we can ideally converge on something solid.

The amount and dispersion of information to work through and keep track of is near-overwhelming as it is - it is the very reason for this team to exist and the goals we set for ourselves. I deliberately declared it a praxicracy: do the work and it will be taken seriously.

nix is multiple things, and package manager is really just a prominent and widespread use.

True. @domenkozar calls it a DevOps system on the front page of nix.dev, and while I agree, to me it obscures more than it reveals. I consider Nix (realized by the nix command line tool) a

configuration management system (via the language)
build system (via the store)
package manager (by virtue of copying and linking store objects)

but that is of course too verbose to put in the name. Therefore maybe keep it just Nix and explain what it is on the front page?

blaggacao commented 2 years ago

I've thought about this a little bit, and in order to resolve the repository misnomer, I suggest NixOS/collections, which contains (as in the above)

The Nix Package Collection (nixPC)
The Nix Library Collection (nixLC)
The NixOS Modules Collection (nixosMC)

nixos-discourse commented 2 years ago

This issue has been mentioned on NixOS Discourse. There might be relevant details there:

https://discourse.nixos.org/t/should-we-give-a-name-to-nix-on-non-nixos/21020/7

fricklerhandwerk commented 2 years ago

@uningan good point, "package manager" does not capture the build system aspect, which is at least as important.

@olafklingt @blaggacao Thinking about this, being too specific at this point leads down infinite rabbit holes concerning repo organization that we simply cannot afford to deal with. This is an issue for the nixpkgs architecture team with @infinisil.

Proposal: Give the things names best-effort-style and calmly sweep under the rug for a while that there is a name collision between the GitHub repository NixOS/nixpkgs and what we call the Nix package collection. Point users to where things are.

I have no real idea on nixpkgs/lib. In the Nix language tutorial (WIP) I call it and builtins by their symbolic name, and maybe this is good enough, at is already a language-domain thing.

Then let's continue discussion and refining proposals in the respective PR, which allows structured suggestions and version control.

fricklerhandwerk commented 2 years ago

@fricklerhandwerk Terminology: Establish firm way of naming things, it doesn't matter what it's named, just needs consistency. Whenever there's a discussion we can tell people to use this (pull request)
- @infinisil: Makes sense for common things we need to point out to people. Maybe a full writing standard document is overboard, as previously discussed
- @fricklerhandwerk "Nix packages collection": kind of makes sense, but it's not really a word. Either "Nix package collection" or "Nix packages"
  - @edolstra: "Nixpkgs" is fine
    - @fricklerhandwerk: Don't know how to pronounce that by itself. Should have a proper name. Code name for SEO
    - @edolstra: "Nix packages" is what everybody uses, is fine
  - @fricklerhandwerk: "X is in Nix packages" is a bit unnatural. Saying "X is in the Nix package collection" would be better. "Nix packages" is plural, weird. "Nix package collection" is singular, makes more sense.
    - @jonringer: Language rules don't matter, there's so many exceptions
    - @LucPerkins: E.g. "United States"
    - @infinisil: I think it's fine, used by many people
    - @fricklerhandwerk: Used by many people is not a big argument. Not many people use Nix in general! Helping non-native speakers would be great by the term being easily pronouncable. "nixpkgs" can't easily be spoken aloud. Was "Nix packages" in the past, but should it continue to be?
  - @fricklerhandwerk: nixpkgs used for code, "Nix package collection" used for communication
    - @edolstra: Causes confusion
    - @fricklerhandwerk: Can't (and don't have to) really pronounce code terms
    - @edolstra: Not an issue people run into IMO. Stating that "Nixpkgs" should be pronounced "Nix packages" would be good.
    - @fricklerhandwerk: Easy to speak about, but writing is harder.
    - @jonringer: I tend to use "nixpkgs repository"
    - @domenkozar: Have a glossary to link to for the term nixpkgs
    - @fricklerhandwerk: Can't require people to link to glossary everywhere. Everybody does different things.
    - @infinisil: Glossary idea is good, we don't need to force other sites to use it
  - @jonringer: "Nix packages" non-ideal because there's also NUR and overlays, which are also Nix packages
  - @fricklerhandwerk: How about referring to the package collection as Nixpkgs, calling it "Nix packages" in speech, and call the repository nixpkgs in monospace?
    - [General agreement]
- @fricklerhandwerk: "Nix package manager", doesn't capture the build system aspect, derivations, etc. "Package manager" is only deployment
  - @domenkozar: There's many components, no clear separation, nobody refers to the build system, there's the language, package manager and everything else, glued together
  - @fricklerhandwerk: @domenkozar suggested "Nix Core"
  - @edolstra: Not a favor of renames, no clear benefit
    - @fricklerhandwerk: Less confusion, clear distinction. What is Nix? The Nix language, package manager, NixOS, etc.? When people are instructed in person, they get told about it in the beginning, it's fine. But for people not being instructed they get confused. We have to improve guides/tutorials. Should at least have a very distinct name
    - @edolstra: How does renaming Nix package manager to "Nix core" help?
  - @infinisil: "Nix core" would that be the Nix repository?
    - @fricklerhandwerk: What Nix package manager meant before, the thing that builds packages, etc.
  - @edolstra: "Nix Core" sounds like the Nix daemon or something
  - @jonringer: "Nix lang", "Nix" itself refers to more
  - @domenkozar: [back from connection issues] "Nix Core" solves confusion about "what is Nix". Nix Core becomes a collection tools in the Nix repository. "Nix Core" is intentionally ambiguous, doesn't refer to a specific component. SQL alchemy had the same problem, just core or more? Doing this change solves SEO, searching for "Nix Core" gives you what you mean. And clears up terminology. Nobody is fond of renames, but will resolve a lot of confusion. Doesn't have to be very involved, just rename repository.
  - @fricklerhandwerk: Nobody likes renames, but we need distinctive names to be clear for writing
  - @domenkozar: Ban "Nix", try having a culture where we're always clear with terms. "Nix" can become term for the whole ecosystem, not just the Nix repository parts.
  - @fricklerhandwerk: Is it okay to keep calling it "Nix package manager"? Tell people to add "package manager" for clarification.
  - @jonringer: Sounds good, should have docs on that. "Nix core" generally implies there's more than just core, like plugins, extensions, etc.
  - @fricklerhandwerk: Should have reliable mental models for what Nix is, and we have to introduce them in our material.
  - @jonringer: As long as it works it might be good enough. But maybe for docs would be better to have more well-defined terms
  - @fricklerhandwerk: Experts struggle to see confusion of beginners.
  - @infinisil: Both "Nix package manager" and "Nix core" aren't great.
  - @domenkozar: "Nix base" is an alternative. Needs an abstract term, but then it doesn't fit well because it's abstract.
  - @infinisil: "Nix CLI"?
    - @edolstra: Wouldn't fit to the daemon
    - @jonringer: What about a future with Nickel, would Nix still represent the deamon?
  - @nrdxp: Used "Nix package compiler" in the past
  - @fricklerhandwerk: What makes Nix special is the derivation idea. Do we really want to significantly change names? Personally I don't really want to, but maybe we do: Renaming Nix language to something completely different, e.g. "sleet" (you know, dynamically typed mush), and the tool itself to something more oriented to the derivation concept making it unique, e.g. "drv". Maybe we don't want to go that far, but can we make it less crazy than now?
    - @edolstra: I don't think it's crazy
    - @jonringer: Not intuitive, but not crazy. Learned Nix through Nix pills, and while it's good, it is a lot of content at once.
      - @nrdxp: Remembers that, more terrifying than helpful. Useful was digging into Nixpkgs. That was the idea for a Nix book, make it not intimidating. Maybe we need a brief functional programming tutorial, what is a pure function, etc.
@LucPerkins: Procedural suggestion: Go into more concrete proposals during these meetings instead of discussing names one by one, more fruitful?
- @fricklerhandwerk: We have those in the issues
@fricklerhandwerk: Wanna go more into the terminology question?
- @fricklerhandwerk: Seems to have not clear consensus, maybe not worth it for now
- @olafklingt: The PR looks good. It seems we have to strike a balance between scope of changes and desired effect?
- @domenkozar: Imagine onboarding thousands of developers, it's not too late to make it clearer, the longer we wait the harder it is.
- @fricklerhandwerk: Agrees with @olaflkingt, should have some improvement without changing too much

nixos-discourse commented 2 years ago

This issue has been mentioned on NixOS Discourse. There might be relevant details there:

https://discourse.nixos.org/t/2022-08-25-documentation-team-meeting-notes-8/21241/1

blaggacao commented 2 years ago

Since this is being discussed, with a sharpened eye, I've gathered the following practical impression about the nomenclature. I don't have a particularly strong opinion, I just want to add this as a data point:

In this post, it felt awkward to use Nix Packages instead of Nix Packages Collection.

There has to be a reason for it...

The enormous business value that the Nix Package Collection provides.

vs.

The enormus business value that Nix Packages provide.

I think the letter just requires a lot of contextual knowledge. Being a generalized plural, it's missing a definite article, blurring somewhat the actual reference:

It is the collection of packages not the plural of package that provides the business value, here.

Augmenting a mere plural into the meaning of a collection seems like that contextual tribal speech to me, that puts newcomers off.

But then, again, for the initiated, it has shifted meaning and consequentially numerus.

The enormus business value that Nix Packages provides.

How awkward, if you read it more than 3-5 times with the eyes and brain of an un-initiated.

nixos-discourse commented 2 years ago

This issue has been mentioned on NixOS Discourse. There might be relevant details there:

https://discourse.nixos.org/t/2022-08-25-documentation-team-meeting-notes-8/21241/3

blaggacao commented 2 years ago

I just had another conscientious encounter with this new nomenclature. (Data point)

However, while they use the Nix Package Collection under the hood, they don't currently expose an interface into the Nix Language (as configuration language).

I felt the need to clarify with "as configuration language", and I think it was because the current confusion about "Nix" doesn't even make "Nix Language" sufficiently distinct in the minds of my target audience.

This legacy baggage might be hard to shave off and actually be an indication to come up with a more distuptive, but distinctive name, such as NixEL or any of the other suggestions made.

fricklerhandwerk commented 2 years ago

@blaggacao I also like NixEL (or Nixel) for being a distinct term that is pronounceable. But an actual rename is out of scope here, simply for being too big of a change to get it through in reasonable time. I agree with @Atemu and would support an RFC to rename Nix language if it's well-researched, summarizing and linking to all previous discussions, arguments, and proposals.

fricklerhandwerk commented 2 years ago

@fricklerhandwerk would like to find agreement to get something merged we can refer to in reviews
- @domenkozar should move to the glossary
  - @fricklerhandwerk good idea
  - still has a few conflicts to resolve
    - @fricklerhandwerk will fix conflicts
  - @infinisil should link from glossary back to tutorials where one can learn about each concept
    - like an index in a book, showing page numbers of references to those terms
    - @fricklerhandwerk can Sphinx do this for us?
      - @domenkozar can try to find a plugin
    - a simple backlink to articles would be enough
    - this PR is already an improvement, this extra thing would be even nicer

nixos-discourse commented 2 years ago

This issue has been mentioned on NixOS Discourse. There might be relevant details there:

https://discourse.nixos.org/t/2022-09-08-documentation-team-meeting-notes-9/21546/1

nixos-discourse commented 2 years ago

This issue has been mentioned on NixOS Discourse. There might be relevant details there:

https://discourse.nixos.org/t/tweag-nix-dev-update-35/21701/1

oneingan commented 1 year ago

Happy to see nix-lang.org registered by Determinate Systems

From: David Arnold @.***> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 08:30:30 -0700

We stay on nixos.org and make extra effort to make clear that NixOS package manager works everywhere.

My senses tell me that people currently reject Nix, when it is recommended to them, because (among other things) when they see nixos.org, they see "OS" and feel invaded.

-- Juanjo Presa https://nadanix.com

NixOS / nix.dev

establish nomenclature #275