OBOFoundry / COB

An experimental ontology containing key terms from Open Biological and Biomedical Ontologies (OBO)
https://obofoundry.github.io/COB
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add exposure of organism class #192

Closed wdduncan closed 2 years ago

wdduncan commented 2 years ago

In ECTO, we are wanting to adopt COB as the upper-level ontology and align ECTO's exposure event class with RO's exposure event or process class. We have submitted ticket to RO about this. See https://github.com/oborel/obo-relations/issues/599.

To help with this, it would be very useful if exposure event was added to COB. For background on the ECTO issue see https://github.com/EnvironmentOntology/environmental-exposure-ontology/issues/58.

I am happy to make the PR. I was wanting feedback first.

cc @cmungall @matentzn

cmungall commented 2 years ago

Minor clarification: That's an ExO class not an ECTO class.

I think this is in scope for COB esp if it's a domain of an RO class

bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

We had previously discussions aligning the EXO / ECTO classes with the immune exposure model (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32283555/). If I recall correctly the EXO/ECTO team did not have time to discuss this any more, and we delayed the alignment. I may very well be wrong. But regardless, we would want to align our ideas about such a high-level term before implementing it in COB.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 8:10 PM Chris Mungall @.***> wrote:

Minor clarification: That's an ExO class not an ECTO class.

I think this is in scope for COB esp if it's a domain of an RO class

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wdduncan commented 2 years ago

@bpeters42 I am happy to coordinate with you. @matentzn @diatomsRcool and @laurenechan need to be involved too. Do you want to set up an ad-hoc call or join one of our meetings?

bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

Thanks Bill and all. We are currently kicking off a big new project, and call times are sparse. Could we try to start this of by email (or on the tracker)? Specifically, will you want to stick to the current definitions in ECTO, " An interaction between an exposure stressor and an exposure_receptor", which has given us trouble with the alignment before, as the whole 'receptor' paradigm is problematic for immune exposure, where we typically refer to 'route' of exposure (inhaled, ingested, topical, etc.), exposure types (administered, accidental, environmental, assumed) etc. We should dig up those conversations again.

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 2:10 PM Bill Duncan @.***> wrote:

@bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 I am happy to coordinate with you. @matentzn https://github.com/matentzn @diatomsRcool https://github.com/diatomsRcool and @laurenechan https://github.com/laurenechan need to be involved too. Do you want to set up an ad-hoc call or join one of our meetings?

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matentzn commented 2 years ago

COB SOP wise, is it necessary to determine the intended design patterns for getting a class into COB? I think if we agree that a term is a useful (of course given its precise human readable definition) upper level concept, we can create in COB (even defer BFO alignment if necessary!) to parallelise the efforts of COB alignment (ontology->COB), BFO alignment (COB->BFO), and design pattern definition (exposure event has stimulus some COB:stressor or whatever).

@wdduncan can you put forward the working IAO:115 definition for "exposure event"?

bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

Nico, what I posted was the ECTO 'definition'. Which as I was trying to point out is not compatible with other views of 'exposure'. If we have the term in COB, I think it should cover those other views.

On Fri, May 6, 2022, 2:24 AM Nico Matentzoglu @.***> wrote:

COB SOP wise, is it necessary to determine the intended design patterns for getting a class into COB? I think if we agree that a term is a useful (of course given its precise human readable definition) upper level concept, we can create in COB (even defer BFO alignment if necessary!) to parallelise the efforts of COB alignment (ontology->COB), BFO alignment (COB->BFO), and design pattern definition (exposure event has stimulus some COB:stressor or whatever).

@wdduncan https://github.com/wdduncan can you put forward the working IAO:115 definition for "exposure event"?

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cmungall commented 2 years ago

Is this something a change in wording would satisfy? I don't think the ECTO community are necessarily attached to the particular wording (and use of the underscore :-)

Do we all agree that in reality an exposure event has a (a) a thing on the "outside" the organism (b) a thing on the "inside" of the organism (c) a path where the thing gets from outside to inside (d) other things that triggered in the organism as a result of the exposure

Of course, different communities may emphasize some things more than others, e.g routes, that's fine. And sometimes the thing is not constrained to be a material entity (e.g. noise)

If we agree that the concept is the same and the same relationships hold then we're most of the way there, it may still be hard getting a text definition that satisfies everyone, and the right strings (e.g. "receptor" is confusing to some - to me a receptor is always a complex or gene product but I understand it's broader for this community)

Or is is the case that the immunologists are talking about a different concept from the environmental exposure biologists (and not a simple subclass, e.g. en exposure event that triggers an immune process)?

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 3:49 PM bpeters42 @.***> wrote:

Thanks Bill and all. We are currently kicking off a big new project, and call times are sparse. Could we try to start this of by email (or on the tracker)? Specifically, will you want to stick to the current definitions in ECTO, " An interaction between an exposure stressor and an exposure_receptor", which has given us trouble with the alignment before, as the whole 'receptor' paradigm is problematic for immune exposure, where we typically refer to 'route' of exposure (inhaled, ingested, topical, etc.), exposure types (administered, accidental, environmental, assumed) etc. We should dig up those conversations again.

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 2:10 PM Bill Duncan @.***> wrote:

@bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 I am happy to coordinate with you. @matentzn https://github.com/matentzn @diatomsRcool https://github.com/diatomsRcool and @laurenechan https://github.com/laurenechan need to be involved too. Do you want to set up an ad-hoc call or join one of our meetings?

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addiehl commented 2 years ago

For induction of autoimmunity, certainly in many cases there is exposure to a self-antigen in a particular context, such as tissue damage caused by a pathogen or a wounding event, in combination with a danger-signal present in that context (bacterial product like LPS, or even self-proteins, like histones or forms of IL-1) that changes the functioning of dendritic cells presenting a self-antigen from tolerogenic to capable of driving an immune response. The exposure in this case is internal, though there may be a precipitating event from an external stimulus. And there are probably spontaneous types of autoimmunity that do not even require the external precipitating stimulus, but still have an internal exposure event that is not tolerogenic but rather immunogenic. (should probably look up a bunch of reference here if I had time)

cmungall commented 2 years ago

to what extent is it useful to group these kinds of things with events like "exposure to noise" other than the word "exposure"? Would anyone want to do a query that grouped these?

And aren't these things at vastly different levels of granularity?

I don't speak for the ECTO developers but I believe the concept they need is actually exposure of the whole organism (of course the "receptors" can be at any scale, and we'd want to link these to molecular pathways). Perhaps the label should be "organism environmental exposure" or even "organism-environment interaction".

And the immunological processes are at the level of molecules, cells, organ systems

Splitting this way might lead to a certain amount of duplication in different ontologies but I think it makes sense

So a causal chain might look like

  1. Environmental Exposure of organism to high levels of pollen via inhalation, receptor = nasal epithelium -> causes/has part
  2. Interaction between pollen and receptors on nasal epithelial cell -> causes
  3. Relevant GO Biological Process / Molecular Activities

(the steps from 2 onwards could also be in in-vitro systems)

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 12:03 PM Alexander Diehl @.***> wrote:

For induction of autoimmunity, certainly in many cases there is exposure to a self-antigen in a particular context, such as tissue damage caused by a pathogen or a wounding event, in combination with a danger-signal present in that context (bacterial product like LPS, or even self-proteins, like histones or forms of IL-1) that changes the functioning of dendritic cells presenting a self-antigen from tolerogenic to capable of driving an immune response. The exposure in this case is internal, though there may be a precipitating event from an external stimulus. And there are probably spontaneous types of autoimmunity that do not even require the external precipitating stimulus, but still have an internal exposure event that is not tolerogenic but rather immunogenic. (should probably look up a bunch of reference here if I had time)

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bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

@Chris: I don't think that immunologists think different about 'immune exposure' than 'environmental exposure biologists', at least if the latter agree with what you wrote on what a exposure is. The exposure classes in ECTO on the other hand read more like covering 'signalling through radio antennas', or 'receptors recognizing their ligand' . There is no mention of organisms anywhere, which seem to be key to both what you wrote, and what ECTO describes the purpose of the ontology is on the registry page. In immunology, we have a 'host organism' being exposed to all kinds of things including other organisms (e.g. pathogens). So at least mentioning that there is an organism being exposed is key. And the whole receptor business is a problem, as we typically have no idea what receptors are triggered, and we just want to describe how the exposure occurred.

A strawman definition for "organism exposure to material entity" could be: "A process during which an organism (the exposed organism) is brought into contact with a material entity (the exposure material)", where the terms in parenthesis are roles. And then we can have routes or specific receptors spelled out in subclasses. Sure that can be improved. Also, I am purposely not covering exposure to noise, abusive parents, or extreme cold - all of which are undoubtedly important, but harmonizing all of that at once seems to be even more difficult.

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 12:03 PM Alexander Diehl @.***> wrote:

For induction of autoimmunity, certainly in many cases there is exposure to a self-antigen in a particular context, such as tissue damage caused by a pathogen or a wounding event, in combination with a danger-signal present in that context (bacterial product like LPS, or even self-proteins, like histones or forms of IL-1) that changes the functioning of dendritic cells presenting a self-antigen from tolerogenic to capable of driving an immune response. The exposure in this case is internal, though there may be a precipitating event from an external stimulus. And there are probably spontaneous types of autoimmunity that do not even require the external precipitating stimulus, but still have an internal exposure event that is not tolerogenic but rather immunogenic. (should probably look up a bunch of reference here if I had time)

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bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

Emails crossed. I was still responding to Chris original email.

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 4:45 PM Bjoern Peters @.***> wrote:

@Chris: I don't think that immunologists think different about 'immune exposure' than 'environmental exposure biologists', at least if the latter agree with what you wrote on what a exposure is. The exposure classes in ECTO on the other hand read more like covering 'signalling through radio antennas', or 'receptors recognizing their ligand' . There is no mention of organisms anywhere, which seem to be key to both what you wrote, and what ECTO describes the purpose of the ontology is on the registry page. In immunology, we have a 'host organism' being exposed to all kinds of things including other organisms (e.g. pathogens). So at least mentioning that there is an organism being exposed is key. And the whole receptor business is a problem, as we typically have no idea what receptors are triggered, and we just want to describe how the exposure occurred.

A strawman definition for "organism exposure to material entity" could be: "A process during which an organism (the exposed organism) is brought into contact with a material entity (the exposure material)", where the terms in parenthesis are roles. And then we can have routes or specific receptors spelled out in subclasses. Sure that can be improved. Also, I am purposely not covering exposure to noise, abusive parents, or extreme cold - all of which are undoubtedly important, but harmonizing all of that at once seems to be even more difficult.

  • Bjoern

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 12:03 PM Alexander Diehl @.***> wrote:

For induction of autoimmunity, certainly in many cases there is exposure to a self-antigen in a particular context, such as tissue damage caused by a pathogen or a wounding event, in combination with a danger-signal present in that context (bacterial product like LPS, or even self-proteins, like histones or forms of IL-1) that changes the functioning of dendritic cells presenting a self-antigen from tolerogenic to capable of driving an immune response. The exposure in this case is internal, though there may be a precipitating event from an external stimulus. And there are probably spontaneous types of autoimmunity that do not even require the external precipitating stimulus, but still have an internal exposure event that is not tolerogenic but rather immunogenic. (should probably look up a bunch of reference here if I had time)

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wdduncan commented 2 years ago

At a general level, we all seem to agree that these entities are involved:

We can (of course) define roles for exposure/exposee. E.g:

exposure event equivalent to:
  process and
       (realizes some exposer role) and 
       (realizes some exposee role)

But, as noted, there will problems with things like exposure to noise.

Perhaps we can use relations (e.g., involves exposer/exposee) to specify the exposer/exposee. E.g.:

exposure event equivalent to:
  process and 
     (involves exposer some entity) and 
     (involves exposee some entity)

Or if we assume that the exposee is always a material entity that is exposed to to something else, this might work:

exposure event equivalent to:
  process and
      has participant some (material entity and exposed to some entity)
bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

Thanks Bill. Of these options, I like the last one the best. I can't think of a useful example of an exposure where the exposee ("exposure recipient" maybe? exposee sounds weird to me) is not a material entity. But more specifically, I was under the impression from the description of ECTO that it specifically wants to talk about organisms being exposed? That is definitely what we want with immune exposures. And I think it will be useful to be a bit narrower. Otherwise it won't be clear if I should model pouring a beer as an exposure of a pint to a liquid. Cheers!

On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 2:27 PM Bill Duncan @.***> wrote:

At a general level, we all seem to agree that these entities are involved:

We can (of course) define roles for exposure/exposee. E.g:

exposure event equivalent to: process and (realizes some exposer role) and (realizes some exposee role)

But, as noted, there will problems with things like exposure to noise.

Perhaps we can use relations (e.g., involves exposer/exposee) to specify the exposer/exposee. E.g.:

exposure event equivalent to: process and (involves exposer some entity) and (involves exposee some entity)

Or if we assume that the exposee is always a material entity that is exposed to to something else, this might work:

exposure event equivalent to: process and has participant some (material entity and exposed to some entity)

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wdduncan commented 2 years ago

@bpeters42 I agree that what counts as an "exposure" can be vague. I left the domain as material entity b/c I was thinking cases in which soil is exposed to a contaminant. But if the least controversial route is to restrict the domain to organism, then that works too. We may want to modify the label, though.

bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

Agree on changing the label. How about: "exposure of organism" = "A process in which an organism is coming into contact with an entity". And that process would realize the "exposed organism role" born by the organism that is being exposed. And the "exposed to" relationship would connect the organism with the entity (to allow for non-material entities; otherwise we could do that with another role) as you had suggested.

The next things we would like to differentiate after that would be:

On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 6:24 PM Bill Duncan @.***> wrote:

@bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 I agree that what counts as an "exposure" can be vague. I left the domain as material entity b/c I was thinking cases in which soil is exposed to a contaminant. But if the least controversial route is to restrict the domain to organism, then that works too. We may want to modify the label, though.

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wdduncan commented 2 years ago

@bpeters42 We discussed this issue on today's ECTO call. We think limiting exposure event to organisms is too restrictive. Reasons for this are situations such as:

cellular components and DNA are not organisms.

If OBI or ECTO needs a more specific exposure of organism class, the class can be a specialization of cob:exposure event.

matentzn commented 2 years ago

I agree with @wdduncan. @bpeters42 is there a specific reason you would like exposure events to be restricted to organisms? Since OBO covers quite a few environmental and agronomy ontologies, there are even more examples I can think of, like exposures of soil to fertilisers etc.

bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

Two reasons: 1) That is what ECTO says its scope is ( https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ols/ontologies/ecto), and that is the scope we need for immune exposures 2) As there has been pushback on any kind of restriction of what constitutes an exposure process, all of GO:biological process and GO:molecular function, as well as me talking to you and any other process I can think of that involves at least one material entity is an exposure. This makes the whole concept meaningless.

On Wed, Jun 1, 2022 at 8:26 AM Nico Matentzoglu @.***> wrote:

I agree with @wdduncan https://github.com/wdduncan. @bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 is there a specific reason you would like exposure events to be restricted to organisms? Since OBO covers quite a few environmental and agronomy ontologies, there are even more examples I can think of, like exposures of soil to fertilisers etc.

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wdduncan commented 2 years ago

We agree that the scope of ecto is about organisms and things that organisms are exposed to. However, cob is meant to be general, and it doesn't seem crazy (to me at least) that non-organism exposure terms of the kinds suggested might need a parent class in cob.

How about we add both exposure event and exposure of organism:

- exposure event
  - exposure of organism

The existence of a hierarchy with only one child class may cause some concern. But, there are already a number of one-child hierarchies already in cob (cf. measurement datum, cellular organism, function, etc.)

cmungall commented 2 years ago

I suggest we in the ecto group go off and compose our thoughts further on our internal slack and come back to this. Including any interaction process as within the concept of exposure seems to go against the original idea of ECTO which was about organism exposures (that encompass other processes as parts, for example UV breaking DNA in epithelial cells).

On Wed, Jun 1, 2022 at 2:00 PM Bill Duncan @.***> wrote:

We agree that the scope of ecto is about organisms and things that organisms are exposed to. However, cob is meant to be general, and it doesn't seem crazy (to me at least) that non-organism exposure terms of the kinds suggested might need a parent class in cob.

How about we add both exposure event and exposure or organism:

  • exposure event
    • exposure or organism

The existence of a hierarchy with only one child class may cause some concern. But, there are already a number of one-child hierarchies already in cob (cf. measurement datum, cellular organism, function, etc.)

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dillerm commented 2 years ago

Hey folks, I recently discovered this thread and wanted to provide some input since I've been doing related work and was actually preparing to bring some proposals to the ECTO/EXO folks. Some of the issues identified thus far in this thread with how exposures are represented in ECTO and EXO are similar to what I have identified, but there are a few more things worth mentioning:

  1. Not all exposure events involve physical contact with a material entity (e.g., victims of sexual harassment may never come into physical contact with their abuser)
  2. The definition of 'exposure stressor' in EXO implies that exposures are harmful, yet many have a protective or beneficial effect on the organism (e.g., exposure to sunlight can be psychologically beneficial)
  3. Whether the exposure is harmful or beneficial is often determined by the quantity of the thing that the person is exposed to acutely or the duration of the exposure (e.g., excessive exposure to sunlight can be harmful to one's skin)
  4. Many exposures are more or less harmful/beneficial depending on what stage in life the organism is in (e.g., exposure to lead in indoor paints is harmful to children, but not so much adults)
  5. In some exposure events, there is a separate process that the thing to which one is exposed is a participant in and that is relevant to a particular health outcome (e.g., exposure to gamma radiation or exposure to rain). Therefore, in some cases, it will be necessary to capture in one's representation of the exposure the fact that the material entity that a person is exposed to is simultaneously participating in a secondary process.

Taking all of this into account and with some input from a domain expert, I recently put together (independently of this thread) the following three proposals for representing different types of organism-environment exposures:

Here is how I propose defining 'physical contacting with organism':

The labels, especially the third one, can definitely use some tweaking. I think the three exposure definitions capture all of the complexities of exposures that have been mentioned in this thread, while also (1) avoiding the receptor approach and (2) linking the exposure event to internal biological processes via GO's 'response to an external stimulus'. Lastly, my definition of 'physical contacting with organism' tries to capture the fact that the material entity touches, enters, or penetrates the organism after having previously been physically separated from the organism.

cmungall commented 2 years ago

I like where you are going with this @dillerm. I like the mechanistic approach. But this may be overextending for social exposures, where it's not clear the GO process is appropriate? And even for some chemical exposures, the chemical may cause damage without the organism responding?

dillerm commented 2 years ago

Hi @cmungall , apologies but I somehow missed the email notification of your reply. GO's 'response to external stimulus' is currently defined as "Any process that results in a change in state or activity of a cell or an organism (in terms of movement, secretion, enzyme production, gene expression, etc.) as a result of an external stimulus." Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, I think this would cover chemical exposures that cause damage without the organism responding since that damage would still alter cellular activity in the regions affected.

Certain social exposures that have a protective effect or that act as a safety net for individuals might be trickier, but here is what I envisioned for something like "access to health insurance" (for the sake of argument, let's pretend there is a class labeled 'health insurance enrollment' that is a subclass of 'process'):

We can create a class, labeled 'access to financial resources', define it as being a subclass of 'environmental exposure process', and assert that it is causally upstream of some process that itself is causally upstream of some response to an external stimulus in some organism. I think this works because causally-upstream-of is defined as "p is causally upstream of q if and only if p precedes q and p and q are linked in a causal chain." We can simultaneously assert that 'health insurance enrollment' is causally upstream of some OGMS:treatment that itself is causally upstream of some response to an external stimulus in some organism. This idea still needs to be thought-out and developed more, as there are a few caveats that come to mind:

  1. It may be ideal to have a different object property than causally-upstream-of to avoid implying that every instance of 'access to financial resources' is causally linked to some subsequent process that affects a person's health. This object property should still allow for the exposure process to indirectly influence a response to external stimulus. I will look at what currently exists in RO and other ontologies to see if anything fits the bill.
  2. There are many things, like food, medical treatment, and housing, that access to financial resources are tied to that the definition will need to consider.
  3. The definition and axiom should also state that money has a causal role to play. Unfortunately, a good representation of 'money' is absent in OBO Foundry ontologies, although this is something we are currently working on adding to OMRSE.
wdduncan commented 2 years ago

After much discussion, the ecto group has decided that only the exposure of organism class would be of use.

Can some make a PR for this?

bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

I am create a PR, but we should first make sure we are all on the same page for the definition of the 'exposure of organism' class, as this tracker item has been going on for a while. I believe this is the last specific text we had the below [cut out from previous email, removing things that are not immediately relevant]:

exposure of organism" = "A process in which an organism is coming into contact with an entity".

that process would realize the "exposed organism role" born by the organism that is being exposed. And the "exposed to" relationship would connect the organism with the entity (to allow for non-material entities; otherwise we could do that with another role)

Is that OK?

On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 1:13 AM Bill Duncan @.***> wrote:

After much discussion, the ecto group has decided that only the exposure of organism class would be of use.

Can some make a PR for this?

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dillerm commented 2 years ago

Depending on what you mean by "contact" (i.e., whether it's limited to physical contact or also includes social contact), you might want to change the label to something like 'physical exposure of organism'. Additionally, something to possibly keep in mind when creating the exposed-to relation is that some of these exposures are symmetric insofar as both parties are affected by the exposure process (this point is probably more salient when you think of two organisms interacting).

bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

Regarding symmetry, you are absolutely right that some exposures go both ways. But I would prefer to then have to 'exposed to' relations for that type of exposure (e.g. pathogen exposed_to host; host exposed_to pathogen), so that we can keep and validate the directionality of the relationship for others where there are not 2 organisms (e.g. organism exposed_to acid).

Regarding 'depending what you mean by contact', I would love to have more input on this. I wrote 'contact' to avoid repeating 'exposure' in the definition. If we separate out 'physical contact', does that mean 'material entity contact'? For immune exposures that would be fine, as all of our exposures deal with material entities. But ECTO includes exposure of an organism to light, sound, X-rays and the like, which are highly related but not material, and the origin of the ticket is to ensure ECTO can use COB.

On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 8:09 PM Matthew Diller @.***> wrote:

Depending by what you mean by "contact" (i.e., whether it's limited to physical contact or also includes social contact), you might want to change the label to something like 'physical exposure of organism'. Additionally, something to possibly keep in mind when creating the exposed-to relation is that some of these exposures are symmetric insofar as both parties are affected by the exposure process (this point is probably more salient when you think of two organisms interacting).

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diatomsRcool commented 2 years ago

I think we do want to retain the "social contact" piece since we do have data that includes exposure to things like violence and poverty. We also need to represent the effects of "exposure to exercise" but I'm not sure that is a good way to model these behaviors.

wdduncan commented 2 years ago

Perhaps the notion of interaction may be of use.

exposure of organism = A process during which an organism an interacts with another entity, and as a result of this interaction, one or both entities undergo stress or tension.

This may be misread all exposures being harmful, but not all stress is negative. I'm not sure a better word to use.

laurenechan commented 2 years ago

I like your proposed definition @wdduncan , and might I suggest using 'stimulated' ? We had previously struggled with just having 'exposure stressor' in ECTO and wanting a way to suggest more neutral/positive exposure entities. We now include 'exposure stimuli' as a parent of 'exposure stressor' to fulfill that piece.

So then: exposure of organism = A process during which an organism interacts with another entity, and as a result of this interaction, one or both entities are stimulated

dillerm commented 2 years ago

@bpeters42 , for photons, can we just say that physical contact occurs between an organism and either a material entity OR a subatomic particle? I think for sound you can say that the exposed organism is coming into contact with some gas, liquid, or solid matter that is participating in some propagated wave, although 'propagated wave' would have to be defined and given a URI. The third class in my above proposal (see below for definition) was meant to handle stuff like this where the definition of the exposure needs to capture that the thing to which the organism is exposed is participating in another process simultaneously.

environmental exposure process via physical contact with a material entity that is participating in an environmental process =(def.) An environmental exposure process that happens via some physical contacting between an organism and a material entity and that is a temporal part of some process the material entity is participating in.

@wdduncan and @laurenechan , I definitely agree that we don't want to imply that the outcome is negative for the organism, which I think the usage of "stress or tension" does. I'm also not sure that saying the organism is stimulated is the best approach since "stimulated" often implies that there is an excitatory response. Avoiding this issue is actually what first motivated me to try to causally relate the exposure process to some downstream response to an external stimulus.

bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

Regarding 'exposure to exercise' or the like, wouldn't it be much more appropriate to have 'exercise' be defined (e.g. a planned process to perform physical activity with the purpose of increasing or maintaining specific physical ability or general health', which can be subclassed with different types of exercises (weightlifting exercise, swimming exercise, jogging, etc), and then say an organism participates in such exercises? I think the same goes for social exposures, where things like 'teaching, talking, fighting, whatever can very well be defined as specific processes. Those processes are often not well covered in existing ontologies, but lumping they all into 'exposures' sounds like something done to fit everything into one data model. The 'material exposure' classes are different in that we have very good ontologies for the material entities that organisms are exposed to, so we can build on that and just need a common framework of who gets exposed to what and how.

Regarding the 'stimulated', 'stressed' etc. addition: For immune exposures it will be very important to capture exposures in the absence of any of that. A host organism's immune system that is being exposed to a pathogen, but fails to detect (or be stimulated) by it is a key use case. So I would much prefer to keep it to the first part of

"exposure of organism = A process during which an organism interacts with another entity" or 'comes into contact with'.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 9:40 PM Matthew Diller @.***> wrote:

@bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 , for photons, can we just say that physical contact occurs between an organism and either a material entity OR a subatomic particle https://bioportal.bioontology.org/ontologies/CHEBI/?p=classes&conceptid=http%3A%2F%2Fpurl.obolibrary.org%2Fobo%2FCHEBI_36342? I think for sound you can say that the exposed organism is coming into contact with some gas, liquid, or solid matter that is participating in some propagated wave, although 'propagated wave' would have to be defined and given a URI. The third class in my above proposal (see below for definition) was meant to handle stuff like this where the definition of the exposure needs to capture that the thing to which the organism is exposed is participating in another process simultaneously.

environmental exposure process via physical contact with a material entity that is participating in an environmental process =(def.) An environmental exposure process that happens via some physical contacting between an organism and a material entity and that is a temporal part of some process the material entity is participating in.

@wdduncan https://github.com/wdduncan and @laurenechan https://github.com/laurenechan , I definitely agree that we don't want to imply that the outcome is negative for the organism, which I think the usage of "stress or tension" does. I'm also not sure that saying the organism is stimulated is the best approach since "stimulated" often implies that there is an excitatory response. Avoiding this issue is actually what first motivated me to try to causally relate the exposure process to some downstream response to an external stimulus.

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dillerm commented 2 years ago

I think there is very good reason to aim for an exposure class that covers both material and social exposures, even if the processes that the latter depends on haven't been fully represented yet. There is a lot of interest currently in studying how the environment affects health using -omics techniques and "big data," and therefore in building linked datasets facilitate such studies.

I also don't think the current proposed definition of 'exposure of organism' needs to be modified much, if at all, to cover non-material exposures, although this depends on what is meant by "interacts with another entity." If this covers non-material exposures where the organism is exposed by virtue of participating in a process, like exercise (i.e., "participates-in some process" can be used in place of "interacts with another entity"), then the current proposal is fine as is, in my opinion.

As for the example of immune exposures where the immune system does not detect the pathogen (e.g., viral latency), I think it still can be argued that the infecting pathogen still acts in a manner that changes that state or activity of one or more cells. In some cases, such as with certain herpesviruses, this evasion of the immune system is caused by them directly downregulating components of that immune response.

wdduncan commented 2 years ago

@bpeters42

.. things like 'teaching, talking, fighting, whatever can very well be defined as specific processes ..

I agree with your general point here. I don't know what guidance to give as when to use exposure to X vs. X itself. However, the notion of exposure seems to be important in some scientific domains.

The examples of viruses and such escaping detection by the immune system are interesting. Not sure how to fit this into the current approach.

dillerm commented 2 years ago

Ah, I see that I misread @bpeters42's previous comment. I don't think that representing social exposures simply as participates-in X where X is a social process is useful simply because participating in X does not always mean you are exposed to X. Useful examples that illustrate this include sexual harassment, battery, education, and employment, where there are multiple parties involved who we would not want to say were exposed even if they participated in one of the relevant processes. In battery, for instance, we would say that both the batterer and the victim are participants in an violent battery process, but we would not want to assert that the batterer's participation is the same as being exposed to battery. In other words, it's often the case that the nature of one's participation in a process is what determines whether their participation counts as a health exposure.

wdduncan commented 2 years ago

@dillerm The difficult part is trying express the nature of the (so-called) "exposure participation" without sounding circular; hence, the language about "interaction", "stimulation", and the like.

bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

I must say that I really don't like the whole 'exposure to process' business. We are supposedly building COB and OBO ontologies based on BFO, which has a clear pattern how that should be done, namely through 'participation' in processes, and if there are different modes of participation, those are called out via roles or function. For example, there is a teaching process which includes as participants someone with a teacher role and someone with a student role. Calling this 'exposure to teaching' is completely incompatible.

On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 3:59 AM Bill Duncan @.***> wrote:

@dillerm https://github.com/dillerm The difficult part is trying express the nature of the (so-called) "exposure participation" without sounding circular; hence, the language about "interaction", "stimulation", and the like.

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diatomsRcool commented 2 years ago

It seems like there are two types of exposure to a process. First is something like teaching where the person being exposed (the student) is a participant in that process. Second is something like a hurricane where the person being exposed is not part of the process. Unless there is some sort of a "bystander" role?

bpeters42 commented 2 years ago

Good point. I was focusing on the 'social interaction' examples given, where participation in the process is mostly clear cut. For something like the 'bystander in a hurricane' example, I believe we would still want to describe the hurricane (which is far from trivial, but can be named and tracked), and the process in which it unfolds involving low atmospheric pressure, rain, wind, flooding etc. So in this cased 'exposed to hurricane' would be the process of being present in the location of where the hurricane unfolds. Which can be very different exposures (flood, wind, etc).

Overall, I want to make clear that I am not saying that I have a clear idea of how to model all exposures. But rather, that I think we should focus on our 'win' of being able to describe organisms that are exposed to material entities first, and build on that.

On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 6:26 PM diatomsRcool @.***> wrote:

It seems like there are two types of exposure to a process. First is something like teaching where the person being exposed (the student) is a participant in that process. Second is something like a hurricane where the person being exposed is not part of the process. Unless there is some sort of a "bystander" role?

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dillerm commented 2 years ago

I agree that we should avoid saying that someone can be exposed to a process, but I think one way around this would be my previous suggestion to represent an exposure as a process that has participant an organism and is causally upstream of some change in the state or activity of the organism or some part of the organism (note again that this change can be minuscule and not clinically relevant). The process that the organism is a participant in can be a social process or some process of physical contacting. I think we'll need to develop something different for handling social "exposures" that are defined by having access to financial or social capital (e.g., access to health insurance, access to a social support network), but the above definition should cover most physical and social exposures without being circular.

I also think this approach allows you to represent exposures where, because the organism is in the vicinity of an environmental process, it comes in contact with something that is participating in that process. For hurricanes, this would mean that you are exposed via physical contact to some raindrop(s) that are participant in a water-based rainfall process, some gaseous environmental material that is participant in a wind gust, and/or some liquid water that is participant in some coastal flooding (note: I'm reusing a lot of ENVO term labels here). For radiation, you would be exposed to some photons that are participant in an electromagnetic radiation process (assuming we allow for 'physical contacting' to be between an organism and a subatomic particle).

Of course this again raises Bjoern's point of whether we even need exposure classes for social exposures instead of just representing 'exposure to social process X' as participates-in 'social process X' since my above-mentioned proposal does not represent the nature of the organism's participation in the process. I think the answer to this depends on if we want to assert in every class that represents a social process (e.g., teaching, fighting, working) that that process is causally linked to some change in state or activity of the organism. If we don't, then I think it would be useful to have classes that distinguish between social exposures and social processes.

diatomsRcool commented 2 years ago

I'm inclined to agree with Bjoern. We should make progress where we can and have further discussions about exposures to processes. It is clearly a complicated issue. As long as we don't make decisions that box us in for the future.