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German labels as alternative terms #1471

Open l-emele opened 1 year ago

l-emele commented 1 year ago

Description of the issue

In today's SIROP meeting we spoke shortly whether we should add German labels as alternative terms to all or at least the most relevant classes.

Ideas of solution

If you already have ideas for the solution describe them here

Workflow checklist

I am aware that

chrwm commented 1 year ago

If the proposal is favoured, I think it could be useful to build upon German labels from existing and in-use vocabulary, such as EnArgus.

l-emele commented 1 year ago

If the concepts match -- why not. However, in a lot of cases we propably cannot match 1:1, for example EnArgus has We can also add only Kraftwerk but we distinguish between power plant and power generating unit.

For matching concepts we can additionally use the annotation property may be identical to to reference the EnArgus term.

u-mueller commented 1 year ago

This is more a comment: I agree that German labels would be helpful not only for mapping, but also for using the OEO as e.g. dictionary for a wider public (@Ludee, didn't you suggest, that we could add easier to read German explanations of the most important terms some day?)

If we agree that German lables are important for improving the comparison tool, what workflow should be applied then? Most of the German translations won't cause trouble, but some may need discussion. Would it make sense to create issues like "Add german label to existing classes: sector", "... : sector division" etc. with lists of all important classes within these higher level classes and then work through it?

l-emele commented 1 year ago

I think, it is best to discuss the workflow on the next OEO dev meeting. That's why I already added the oeo dev meeting label.

l-emele commented 1 year ago

As a short test, I took six core concepts of the OEO and listed how I would translated. Then I checked against EnArgus and found for only two of the six corresponding entries in EnArgus.

Label German label EnArgus
energy Energy Energie
energy carrier Energieträger Energieträger
fuel Brennstoff ?
energy transformation Energieumwandlung ?
energy transfer Energieübertragung ?
energy demand Energienachfrage ?
u-mueller commented 1 year ago

Using the search bar I found two more as full synonyms - plus derived "Energieübertragung" from "energy transfer system" = "Energieübertragungssystem". Input for the discussion.

Label German label EnArgus
energy Energy Energie
energy carrier Energieträger Energieträger
fuel Brennstoff Kraftstoff
energy transformation Energieumwandlung ?
energy transfer Energieübertragung ?
energy demand Energienachfrage Energiebedarf
l-emele commented 1 year ago

Kraftstoff from EnArgus is not equivalent to our fuel, however it maybe equivalent to our combustion fuel. Our fuel also includes nuclear fuel while that is not mentioned in EnArgus' description of Kraftstoff.

l-emele commented 1 year ago

As discussed, I finalised the spreadsheet with the German labels and the EnArgus matching. However, I am not able to share this file via Google Docs. Does someone else have the possibility to share a spreedsheet in a way that it is accessible and editable without registration by user?

If not, an alternative would be to export the spreadsheet to a CSV file and add this to feature branch.

carstenhoyerklick commented 1 year ago

Now as a google docs document https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1snsx6zF8dqXGM9WCX0EckrdGnorrB9lMnvdvP2fx9ZQ/edit?usp=sharing

l-emele commented 1 year ago

I worked today a bit on the table.

In total we have in the list currently 1055 OEO classes and individuals [^1]. Of these 627 have one or more proposals for German labels. Additionally, 122 entries are matched to EnArgus.

There are some very fundamental OEO concepts where we have do discuss to find good German labels:

Further, we have to find good translations for the BFO classes disposition and role as there are a lot of OEO-defined classes that contain the words disposition resp. role in their English labels.

[^1]: The CRF sector individuals are currently exlcucded (filtered out) as they are so many.

l-emele commented 1 year ago

@han-f @stap-m @chrwm @u-mueller @carstenhoyerklick : Has anyone already had a look on the translations table? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1snsx6zF8dqXGM9WCX0EckrdGnorrB9lMnvdvP2fx9ZQ/edit?usp=sharing

h-spinde commented 6 months ago

It seems to me like we might risk conflicts if both this and Issue 1598 are implemented, since both proposed sites can define terms differently. For example, "Markt" is defined in enArgus as: "das Zusammentreffen von Angebot und Nachfrage" ("the meeting of supply and demand"), but in IATE as: "eine Veranstaltung, bei der auf einem örtlich bestimmten Gebiet (Marktplatz, Markthalle) zu bestimmten Markttagen und Marktzeiten Waren feilgeboten und verkauft werden" ("an event, during which wares might be offered and sold on certain market-days and market-times, in a specified location (maket-place, market-hall)").

stap-m commented 6 months ago

The focus of IATE is different to EnArgus. IATE provides "EU specific terminolog", whereas EnArgus provides terminology of a domain similar to OEO. Therefore, the meaning of terms from EnArgus might be usually closer to OEO. However, for some terms, a matching with IATE might be intetesing, too.

viktorwichern commented 6 months ago

There are some very fundamental OEO concepts where we have do discuss to find good German labels:

  • portion of matter
  • fuel
  • quantity value

I've spend a lot of time thinking about those, and it really is hard.

fuel I can't say for sure since I'm not a domain expert, maybe the reason it is so hard to translate is that most fuel definitions just don't include nuclear fuel, and are therefore translated to Kraftstoff?

portion of matter is the worst. The best I can think of might be ansammlung von materie or, what I think would be closest to the definition homogenes konglomerat an materie. Sounds really weird though.

quantity value might possibly be translated to mengen wert.

Further, we have to find good translations for the BFO classes disposition and role as there are a lot of OEO-defined classes that contain the words disposition resp. role in their English labels.

disposition could either be disposition or veranlagung, at least on first glance I didn't see any problems with the translation of other labels.

role is a little weirder. rolle would be the obvious choice, and maybe it would actually be okay. I think some translated labels sound off, but that might just be due to unfamiliarity.

l-emele commented 6 months ago

It seems to me like we might risk conflicts if both this and Issue 1598 are implemented, since both proposed sites can define terms differently.

I don't think that this is a problem. For the German labels we will use alternative term, but to link to other ontologies we use the annotation may be identical to: A annotation relationship between two terms in an ontology that may refer to the same (natural) type but where more evidence is required before terms are merged. This highlights that the definitions to the linked entities might be differently defined.

fuel I can't say for sure since I'm not a domain expert, maybe the reason it is so hard to translate is that most fuel definitions just don't include nuclear fuel, and are therefore translated to Kraftstoff?

In my view, Brennstoff is best matching translation here (as already proposed in the table). nuclear fuel should be translated to Kernbrennstoff.

viktorwichern commented 6 months ago

In my view, Brennstoff is best matching translation here (as already proposed in the table). nuclear fuel should be translated to Kernbrennstoff.

Ohh, I just realised how to use the table... that's helpful.

But what's your opinion to the rest?

l-emele commented 6 months ago

But what's your opinion to the rest?

To move on, I suggest that we simply skip those classes for the moment where we do not find quickly a good translation and deal with them later. I think it is better to have German labels for a large share of classes soon than waiting long until we have German labels for all classes.

stap-m commented 6 months ago

portion of matter is the worst. The best I can think of might be ansammlung von materie or, what I think would be closest to the definition homogenes konglomerat an materie. Sounds really weird though.

I actually used to call it Materieportion when talking about it in German. "portion" shall indicate a quantity that is not further specified. This goes well with the German "Portion", too.

stap-m commented 6 months ago

quantity value might possibly be translated to mengen wert.

Ok. I think, we should use German spelling, includung camel case for Nouns, i.e. Mengenwert

stap-m commented 6 months ago

Further, we have to find good translations for the BFO classes disposition and role as there are a lot of OEO-defined classes that contain the words disposition resp. role in their English labels.

I don't think we should translate BFO. We have more important tasks than that and focus on the energy system terminology.

l-emele commented 5 months ago

I agree, that we do not need to translate the whole BFO, but we have to translate the two terms disposition and role as these are parts of a lot of OEO-defined labels like energy carrier disposition or fuel role.

stap-m commented 5 months ago

I agree, that we do not need to translate the whole BFO, but we have to translate the two terms disposition and role as these are parts of a lot of OEO-defined labels like energy carrier disposition or fuel role.

I see.

disposition could either be disposition or veranlagung, at least on first glance I didn't see any problems with the translation of other labels.

role is a little weirder. rolle would be the obvious choice, and maybe it would actually be okay. I think some translated labels sound off, but that might just be due to unfamiliarity.

"Rolle" and "Disposition" seem best to me. Since the BFO terms go beyond the common understanding of these terms anyway, we should stay as close as possible to "role" and "disposition" to aviod confusion, in my view. We can also discuss this in the next oeo-dev-meeting.

EDIT: Maybe for these cases, we could use Brennstoff Rolle instead of Brennstoffrolle etc. to sign that "Rolle" and "Disposition" are special terms and we therefore don't use common German spelling.

carstenhoyerklick commented 5 months ago

How about Fähigkeit as german translation for disposition?

l-emele commented 5 months ago

From OEO dev meeting 72:

stap-m commented 5 months ago

I propose to make a hands-on review session during the next oeo-dev-meeting for the table above and put it on the agenda.

stap-m commented 5 months ago

In the oeo-dev meeting on 2024-01-29 we did an hands-on session:

Hands-on: labels prüfen und ok oder veto geben. alles was kein veto bzw 2 oks hat, wird danach umgesetzt results: implement until line 515 from top implement until line 1375 from bottom

l-emele commented 3 months ago

From oeo dev meeting 74 on 2024-02-08:

christian-rli commented 2 months ago

@vismayajochem is going to work on this.

vismayajochem commented 1 month ago

In the google doc sheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1snsx6zF8dqXGM9WCX0EckrdGnorrB9lMnvdvP2fx9ZQ/edit#gid=687082420 in line 100 there are again two german lables and the second one has a question mark behind it. I proceeded like last time and implemented only the first one. Is that correct and should I do that with all following labels if there is a questionmark behind it?

l-emele commented 1 month ago

I think, we should exclude for now all labels that have a question mark.

vismayajochem commented 1 month ago

In the google doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1snsx6zF8dqXGM9WCX0EckrdGnorrB9lMnvdvP2fx9ZQ/edit#gid=687082420 in line 183, 184 and 188 the suggested german labels seem not quite accurate. I would recommend to use Druckluftauto instead of komprimiertes Gas Auto, Druckluftmotor instead of komprimierter Gas Motor and Druckluftfahrzeug instead of komprimiertes Gas Fahrzeug. Does that sound OK @l-emele ? (The yellow background is put there from me, so it is easier for me to see where I had questions...)

vismayajochem commented 1 month ago

I have a general question to the meaning of colored text or background in the google doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1snsx6zF8dqXGM9WCX0EckrdGnorrB9lMnvdvP2fx9ZQ/edit#gid=687082420: E.g. in line 346 and in line 358 (Nele marked it), but also futher down in the document. Those labels do not have a veto or a question mark behind it, therefore I would suggest I just implement them. Is this the practice you would like me to do @l-emele @nelekoehler ? Or should I leave any different colored labels out for now?

nelekoehler commented 1 month ago

I have a general question to the meaning of colored text or background in the google doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1snsx6zF8dqXGM9WCX0EckrdGnorrB9lMnvdvP2fx9ZQ/edit#gid=687082420: E.g. in line 346 and in line 358 (Nele marked it), but also futher down in the document. Those labels do not have a veto or a question mark behind it, therefore I would suggest I just implement them. Is this the practice you would like me to do @l-emele @nelekoehler ? Or should I leave any different colored labels out for now?

I think you can implement those, when there is no Veto. If I remember correctly, I marked those, because when we looked through the google doc these were two suggestions I made, so I marked them. But they were discussed.

l-emele commented 1 month ago

In the google doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1snsx6zF8dqXGM9WCX0EckrdGnorrB9lMnvdvP2fx9ZQ/edit#gid=687082420 in line 183, 184 and 188 the suggested german labels seem not quite accurate. I would recommend to use Druckluftauto instead of komprimiertes Gas Auto, Druckluftmotor instead of komprimierter Gas Motor and Druckluftfahrzeug instead of komprimiertes Gas Fahrzeug. Does that sound OK @l-emele ? (The yellow background is put there from me, so it is easier for me to see where I had questions...)

komprimiertes Gas Auto is definitely not proper spelled German. But even Kompromiertes-Gas-Auto sounds very weird to my native German ear. And I even doubt, that a compressed gas car, a vehicle a uses only the pressure energy of a gas even exists (beyond some theoretical concepts or maybe some prototypes).

~I rather assume, that this is an implementation error and that it rather should a compressed natural gas car defined as: A compressed natural gas car is a car that uses compressed natural gas in a gas engine and thus is also a compressed gas vehicle. This would fit the definition of : compressed natural gas: Compressed natural gas (CNG) is natural gas that has been compressed~ EDIT: Looking into all classes with compressed, the labels follow a logical structure. But to find good German labels for compressed gas vehicle and compressed gas engine, we need to find a good German label for compressed gas fuel first.

Thus, I suggest for the moment to skip all classes with compressed gas ~and clarify this in a separate issue~.

vismayajochem commented 3 weeks ago

I have a question regarding a row in the google doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1snsx6zF8dqXGM9WCX0EckrdGnorrB9lMnvdvP2fx9ZQ/edit#gid=687082420: In row 482 the english label is 'energy balance' but in protoge the matching OEO_00010404 has the label 'energy balance data set'. The assign german label seems to fit the label in the google doc, but neither the label nor the description I see when I look at the OEO. (The description given in the google doc I can't find in the OEO.) Am I missing something? How should I proceed here?

l-emele commented 3 weeks ago

The class OEO_00010404 was relabeled in PR #1717 from energy balance to energy balance data set. Thus I suggest to add the german label Energiebilanzdatensatz.

vismayajochem commented 5 days ago

In line 870 of the google sheet there is only given the male version of the gendered word "Marktteilnehmer". Should I implement also an altermative label with "Marktteilnehmerin"? Since other words, which are gendered in german, have two german alternative labels...

l-emele commented 5 days ago

I think, its was simply a mistake that "Marktteilnehmerin" was not added to the table.

vismayajochem commented 20 hours ago

I would just always add the female version as an alternative label, if it isn't provided in the google docs sheet. Is that ok @l-emele ?

l-emele commented 20 hours ago

Yes, that is fine.