Bounty System

[DrNoePain]

So I think I've figured out a way for both the reds and whites to be happy.

First of let me start by saying I've played this game for 20 years. I keep coming back for the pvp. Meridian doesn't have any special graphics or raids to keep people around. Its a niche game with full loot and open pvp. People play it for the pvp alone.

Lately the developers have been coding more and more to nerf pvp and make it consistently harder for reds and pkers. Well this isn't the solution. Neither side seems happy, especially reds with the constant nerfs. As we can see this isn't the answer, judging by how many people are up in arms over a lot of the current possible changes. A lot of people being reds whites and even neutral parties.

What i propose in order to fix this problem is a bounty system. What we really need are more persistent hunters, to keep the pker population down. Myself being a pker, i wouldn't come out as much if i knew tons n tons of hunters are following me. Now a correctly incorporated bounty system will solve this issue. It will create more hunters. as they will have an incentive to hunt pks now. Hell even as a pk i would hunt other pks knowing i could collect a bounty. Plain and Simple, people need a reason to hunt pks.. They would come out of the wood works at a chance to collect a fat bounty.

Not sure on the coding needed, but upon the killing of an individual i propose that the person who did the pk'ing get a bounty placed on there head. these values can be adjusted, but say 20k per kill for starters. You don't want it to high, as more shills in the economy could be bad. Also you could make it a bounty board in adv halls where people can add to that bounty. This system right here will greatly increase the amount of hunters on the server. Hell even the pks would be hunting other pks in order to collect the bounty.

It satisfy both parties, as reds no longer get more and more coded nerfs... their population would be under control, as more hunters would be active trying to collect bounties. This also satisfies the devs wants and needs as with less pkers means more newbies and casuals would have a chance.

Now I'm sure someone will comment on the 1 flaw that a red can just kill himself and collect his own bounty. Yes this is true, but he's going to lose % and an hp and that should be penalty enough, especially when he's trying to build being red. Also no offense but most of the pks have an ego, and that ego most likely will want to stay on top of the bounty list and not drop off just to grab a few shills.

I honestly think this is the best way to help this game grow.. we won't have a need for all the nerfs.. Hunters will be in more abundance, which will in itself take care of the pk problem.

Meridian is a game of pvp and a solid community that takes care of its own... lets help make this a possibility.

[Fike103]

Interesting idea. But there are narrow places too: its so fast to get a toon up to 75hp in CV, then you may kill it by throwaway 50hp pker to raise bounties, then kill pker and get the bank. All these possible abuses should be researched and cut, then it will be great idea.
Imagine - some newb gets attacked many times by same pker, so he takes all his money and puts into bounty box. Not simple bcasting "PKER CV" which doesnt work at all, but "150k bounty Pker CV". Maybe some real pkers wont be dared to hunt till they reach 300k+ bounty? Who knows?:) Also, decent pkers die rarely, so there might be some additional reward even for penning- lets say 10% of bounty drops in addition to 2 penalty items? So, after pen totall bounty gets lower, but hunters are happy to recieve cash for their group work.

[DrNoePain]

Hmm well we can start with bounties only acrue on pkers above 100hp. Similar to justicar voting . I feel the extra gold is incentive enough for more people to be out hunting. Also I like the idea of a percent of the bounty dropping with a pen . Nice call . Let's get some more feed back guys

[Sapphia]

Nice idea, but i still think it would be abused to collect money, 100 hps are a work of one week if you are lazy and 4 days in normal time.

[Fike103]

Yea, 100hp might work. It is easy and fast to get 100hp, but each hit point after 100 requires more time invested, and even if its 20-30k per hp loss (on white toon) at bounty - thats not the best way to farm cash. Since its at least 50k per hp of pure cash in brax or OOK. Not sure tho, there should be some math included, and testing. But i actually love this idea. I would love to run around by Fike with 150k bounty for my head, and still go on killing.

[MorbusM59]

It's the same old issue really. You have to balance something so that it is creating an effect, but at the same time isn't worth being abused. Usually, there is no sweet spot, and it becomes lucrative to abusers long before it has any effect on regular folks.

You aren't really trading the single HP loss of the PK for cash, since the PK only needs to die once. You are really trading the time it takes to get one HP from 50 to 51 for cash. So with the current theory, you can kill the same white toon off 100 times, then kill the PK once for 2kk shillings. This could be curbed some by creating a maximum bounty of 500k, so that the cash per PK death is capped.

But as it currently stands, if I wanted to abuse the system, I'd do this: 1) Afk bot HPs in CV on multiple accounts with group bonus over night. 2) Get a PoL mule and run my chars to a PvP enabled zone. 3) With a key recorder, save the sequence of keystrokes needed to run from the spawn location in UW to the PoL in the center. 4) Get my PK and cast two firewalls in that zone, then return to the bordering safe zone. 5) Let my sacrifical toons die a fiery death. 6) Have the toons automatically run back with the saved key sequence. 7) Repeat steps 4 to 6 until I feel happy. 8) Slaughter my 10kk PK.

That may seem like a lot of effort to most, but I'm fairly sure there are quite a few players who wouldn't have any issue whatsoever setting this up.

On a side note, I really don't feel that hunters don't hunt because it isn't worth it. I mean, killing an infamous PKer is its own reward. How much motivation does a bounty of 200k on top of that provide? Hunters don't hunt because it is a ridiculously high time investment with a ridiculously low chance to actually encounter the PK. The core problem is, that if you want PvP in Meridian, you have to be the offender, not the one who seeks the offender.

[Fike103]

Very good point, Morbus! Especially the last part: "The core problem is, that if you want PvP in Meridian, you have to be the offender, not the one who seeks the offender."
Pkers are offenders, and ALL fixes which are offered by now have their aim to low down Pkers activity = limiting offenders = limiting PVP. Very well said. At the same time, i belive that there IS some idea yet unfound which will shift ballance to hunters WITHOUT nerfing red vs white huge part of the game. Lets search more. This bounty system seems to be so interesting, if only you could delete any type of abuse...

[MorbusM59]

I think we can basically sum it up with a simple equation. more readily available PvP = less griefing

So our main focus needs to be: More PvP! I believe there are two general guidelines to follow to achieve that. 1) More PvP scenarios, some instanced, some open world. 2) Shift penalties away from physical penalties and towards a reputation system.

I need to say a few more words here. If we want PvP, we can't inhibit PvP by removing a PvPers ability to compete after a loss. I understand that you can bond important items, farm money back (to theoretically create more PvP, yeah right) and try to get back on your feet. But let's be realistic here: this doesn't create more PvP, it kills PvP. Our current penalty system creates a positive feedback loop in which the victor rises in power and the loser, especially when inexperienced, is significantly weakened and taken out of the competition for a while. This decreases the chances of a successful comeback and thus the motivation for the loser to further compete. Noone who wants PvP can be in favor of that.

At the same time, I'm aware that the penalty system creates a certain amount of thrill which we don't want to lose. So how about this:

The server keeps a ranking of each player's reputation. A player's ranking is visible in his bio and in the who list. A complete ranking can be seen in every inn.

As a player, you start out with a base reputation of 1000. Every time you are killed by someone, your rating is diminished by a certain amount, depending on the ranking of the person you were killed by. The higher the rank of your killer, the less reputation you lose, the lower, the more reputation you lose.

Having established this ladder, we calculate the classical penalties. If you are not ranked among the top 50 PvPers, you will not lose anything when you die in PvP (regular losses for a PvE death). Once you make it into the top 50, you will start receiving a death penalty. This penalty will ramp up the higher you make it into the ranking.

So why go for a high rating? First off, it's awesome to be the number one PvPer on the server. That's quite a bit of a reward in itself. However, we can grant additional perks based on your ranking, as long as those perks don't affect your power in PvP. For example, guild or room rent could be reduced depending on your rank, or you could get a personal hair dresser into your room that will change your hair color whenever you want it and free of charge. There are many possibilities.

A system like this would be self regulating. The better you are, the higher the risk and thrill. If you are defeated, chances are that you can recover from your death. If you are low in the ranking, you're a noone, but you can go and get into the fray without worrying about much. Once you get better, you will automatically start caring about dying a lot more, both in order to get a higher ranking and to avoid penalties.

[skittles1]

Ranking system sounds good.

[Phex1]

So, if a low rank battle a high rank, the high rank can loose everything, and the low rank nothing. The low rank will just try to zerg the high rank, until he is out of mana,regs, whatever. And without our current system, anyone will attack anyone else on sight, ending in a endless frenzy.

I know this from Darkfall, PvP everywhere, but no death penaltys. So, basicly whenever you see another player you attack him, because you are afraid he will attack you.

And i have never, ever seen a "Ranking System" in any MMO that works. And it's boring. "Hey, my number is bigger then yours!"

[MorbusM59]

You can keep the current system at the same time and have the ranking on top of it.

And if the low rank wants to play a one man zerg and keeps getting killed by the high rank, all the more entertainment for the high rank. Isn't that exactly what the best PvPers want? Constant battle and blood shed! If someone managed to get a high rank, he probably has loads of resources to back him up, unlike the low rank, who won't be able to zerg much anymore after he blew all his reagents on the first few tries.

As for the penalties: You always argue that death penalties are part of the thrill of the game. Well, let's give the good PvPers the thrill they ask for.

And regardless of the ranking and wheter you find it boring, this ranking dishes out penalties to those that want them and can deal with them, while keeping them away from those that don't PvP because of them. Sorry, but I don't see any substance in your criticism.

[DrNoePain]

Unfortunately a ranking systems does nothing to incentivize hunters to defend or attack pkers. Lower rent or guild halls doesn't do much for me.

Knowing I can kill someone and get a chance of some shills cause I'm tired of farming for them would for sure make me want to go hunt pkers. Also no loss for not being in the top 50 it's counter productive. Well it's actually advantageous for a pker. I just don't feel we could offer perks big enough to incentivize people to hunt or pk.

The bounty system I proposed in still currently in many games today even old games like UO that have servers with 1999 copies with 1k players or more.

Ranking is fun and all and so are titles but I mean who really cares about a shiney title, when I can pen u and get shills or regs . It's the turns into a form of making money. Money is the number one motivation for majority of people .

On Feb 16, 2014, at 9:13 AM, Morbus notifications@github.com wrote:

I think we can basically sum it up with a simple equation. more readily available PvP = less griefing

So our main focus needs to be: More PvP! I believe there are two general guidelines to follow to achieve that. 1) More PvP scenarios, some instanced, some open world. 2) Shift penalties away from physical penalties and towards a reputation system.

I need to say a few more words here. If we want PvP, we can't inhibit PvP by removing a PvPers ability to compete after a loss. I understand that you can bond important items, farm money back (to theoretically create more PvP, yeah right) and try to get back on your feet. But let's be realistic here: this doesn't create more PvP, it kills PvP. Our current penalty system creates a positive feedback loop in which the victor raises in power and the loser loses in power, decreasing the chances of a successful comeback and thus the motivation for the loser to further compete. Noone who wants PvP can be in favor of that.

At the same time, I'm aware that the penalty system creates a certain amount of thrill which we don't want to lose. So how about this:

The server keeps a ranking of each player's reputation. A player's ranking is visible in his bio and in the who list. A complete ranking can be seen in every inn.

As a player, you start out with a base reputation of 1000. Every time you are killed by someone, your rating is diminished by a certain amount, depending on ranking of the person you were killed by. The higher the rank of your killer, the less reputation you lose, the lower, the more reputation you lose.

Having established this ladder, we calculate the classical penalties. If you are not ranked among the top 50 PvPers, you will not lose anything when you die in PvP (regular losses for a PvE death). Once you make it into the top 50, you will start receiving a death penalty. This penalty will ramp up the higher you make it into the ranking.

So why go for a high rating? First off, it's awesome to be the number one PvPer of the server. That's quite a bit of a reward in itself. However, we can grant additional perks for your ranknig on the server, as long as those perks don't affect your power in PvP. For example, guild or room rent could be reduced depending on your rank, or you could get a personal hair dresser into your room that will change your hair color whenever you want it and free of charge. There are many possibilities.

A system like this would be self regulating. The better you are, the higher the risk and thrill. If you are defeated, chances are that you can recover from your death. If you are low in the ranking, you're a noone, but you can go and get into the fray without worrying about much. Once you get better, you will automatically start caring about dying a lot more, both in order to get a higher ranking and to avoid penalties.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[Phex1]

And if the low rank wants to play a one man zerg and keeps getting killed by the high rank, all the more entertainment for the high rank. Isn't that exactly what the best PvPers want?

No, Meridian PvP is easy, if you get 2 Qorler against you, your "Rank" means nothing. One Chainholds, the other kills you. Yeah, it's maybe not THAT easy, but you get the point. Why one of them should have death penatlys and the other have nothing to risk? That's just...dumb. Sorry.

[DrNoePain]

I agree with phex a ranking system has never worked.

I hate to reference it, but even the most care best game wow got rid of there's basically. Cause shiney titles do nothingn for people. You get bored plain n simple.

If I kill you I want what u drop plus that bonus bounty .

I feel the bounty system is the way to go here . So let's build on this system. Find ways to cut out cheating that could be done. For starters we could make a cap. You start acquiring bounties after 130 Hps.

I don't think I know a char that has 130 or less . This will stop people from using throw away chars. Getting Hps above 130 is a bitch. Especially for a pk. Knowing that Abu dun is on building with a 500k bounty is gonna motivate me to go looking for him instead of sitting in fams singing Karaoke and botting spells to 99. This would solve the pker problem for sure . U could then need the hell out of throw away pkers . This combination would work

So as I said let's continue to build on the bounty system

On Feb 16, 2014, at 9:57 AM, Phex1 notifications@github.com wrote:

And if the low rank wants to play a one man zerg and keeps getting killed by the high rank, all the more entertainment for the high rank. Isn't that exactly what the best PvPers want?

No, Meridian PvP is easy, if you get 2 Qorler against you, your "Rank" means nothing. One Chainholds, the other kills you. Yeah, it's maybe not THAT easy, but you get the point. Why one of them should have death penatlys and the other have nothing to risk? That's just...dumb. Sorry.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[MorbusM59]

Well, if you are a high rank, you probably also know how to organize yourself. You will probably run around in teams.

But seriously: You guys keep arguing that the penalties are the spice to the game, that they create a sense of danger and give you a thrill. Well then, if you want to have the thrill, why are you complaining about good PvPers (such as yourself) keeping the thrill, while lousy ones don't? Does it in some way affect your sense of danger when a newbie doesn't take a penalty? I don't think so.

Is it fair that good players take penalties while bad players dont? Nope, not one bit! Life's tough when you are the best, you have to constantly struggle to remain in your spot and be wary at all times. Isn't that what it is all about? Having a skill slope? Being the best actually meaning something? If I was a godly player, I'd love the sense of extra challenge and danger. It is your reward for performing at your best after all. However, if you are a lame, safety cuddling PK who does nothing else but prey on the weak without taking any risk whatsoever you're not getting any reward for that anymore. But hey, you're not risking anything either really, since you won't make it into the top tier by killing newbies.

And come on, don't tell me that money offers the least bit incentive after the server has been running for a while. Why do players play competitive PvP games? For more in game cash? Nah! For the gloating rights and thrill of battle!

[Fike103]

Personally me, - i love bounty idea more.. Just by simple fact - bounty ADDS profit in pvp, ranking - lows it down. Ppl should die and drop items no matter how newbish they are, - thats the core of the game, - learn by suffering. The only thing that sucks ATM is that dead newb (or regular player) CANT count on backup when he gets stalked next time. If you move towards "more sacred heaven for some group of ppl", - you are moving away from m59. If you add more reasons for "sheeps" to fight "predators", - you are breathing life into this game. I know, some sheeps wont show up even for a possible 2 mil rewards, because of their own problems, but the most part of neutrals have their reasonable price for which they step outside and risk to be dead. You cant make this big group of neutrals risk for rank points. Rank already exists in bio, where you put your kills etc. Candy is better than "rank with no sugar" :)

[Phex1]

I really cant care less about money, my char is fully build and i have 2000000 Shillings on the bank. You can make money easy by just watching tv, or play something else an the laptop or read a book.

What happend to the idea with the hunter-item? Give me an amulet that boost my stats when i kill a red. You can combine it with the bountysystem, let player put 100k on a red and then he give you +1stamina if you kill him. I would totally hunt him down for that.

But the problem with the bountysystem remains, it is easy to abuse. I put my 2Millions on my own red and kill him and then ich can get 160 HP's.

Maybe let Daenks put the bounty on players, if he thinks one player is rpk'ing to much and hurts the server.

[DrNoePain]

You just need parameters phex. You don't gain bounties till 130 hp. You can't acrue them from killing people under 100 Hps something like that. This would shift the focus off of newbs a bit. As people want to boost there ego with how high their bounty is . This in conjunction with nerfing the shit out iof 50 hp tofers could work well.

I think it's a better start than half if the nerfs that are proposed right now . Just gotta think outside of the box. Incentive will correct the pker problem, not coding nerfs

Also to solve your problem of juicing up your own bounty phex I know in eve when u kill someone you only get a percent of the bounty. This would be perfect . Say you get 10 percent for a pen and 25 to 30 percent for a death. So if u wanted the full bounty you'd have to kill your guy 4 times . That's a massive oh loss and prevents. Just to collect the bounty

[Phex1]

Dont get my wrong, i like this system, too. But i think it is easy to abuse. Not even 130 Hp will stop this. My group has builded several 130 Hp Chars out of pure bordedom. Right now, we can get one in two sundays. There is no problem to get one of them red and get the bounty. Just remember the fraction killmules.

[DrNoePain]

Which is why I recommended you gaining a percent of the bounty in kill. This way if you want to kill your 130 hp toon 4-5 times to get the full bounty be my guest. That's a big loss .

Also if your killing your own 100 hp toon then farming the hps back in tr . It's kind of counter productive as you'd make more money doing tr alone . Just tryin to suggest better ways incentivize the community instead of just taking the nerf bat to pvp

Il try n think if parameters to limit the abuse

[DrNoePain]

well lets me start by saying i like the positive feedback this has received on here and ingame.

As there have been no reds lately, i see less and less hunters even logging on. So i went colored on Memnock today and Roy offered a bounty for my head, which didnt motivate anyone until he raised the bounty a few times. Finally there were about 5 waiting to collect that bounty. This is why this system needs to be implemented.

In order for this to not be abused. i recommend the following:

Bounty is 25k upon killing someone Bounty can only be received when pker is 130 hps or more Bounty can only be acquired when killing someone over 100 hp Upon Pen, 10% of bounty is dropped Upon Death 25 % of bounty is dropped.

These numbers can be played around with a bit. but with the changes for 50 hp tofers coming in. these 2 together would work well.. Ill explain.

1 25k shil is a good starting point for a bounty, we dont want it to get to high as some people will sacrifice themself if they really need the cash.
2 Im certain that 95% of the players have atleast 30 stam or more.. so bounty system would only be in effect for built characters. This limits the use of 50 hp tofers... aside from nerfing them

3. If pkers want a bounty on there head, there going to focus more on 100hp or higher chars. this will hopefully alleviate some of the pking done at cv and make them focus on other areas.
4. Since many pkers are good fighters and rarely die, aka quick to log. I feel when they pen, that the hunters should get a small portion of their bounty for there troubles.
5. 25% seems like a good number to receive when a pker is killed. This will keep it so pkers. dont go off killing themselves. If they want the full bounty, that's 4 hps lost and a grip of %. from 130 hps its a good loss.

If anyone else has any tweaking.. feel free to comment. with the recent nerfs possibly coming and the lack of pks and hunters as it is.. Perhaps this system will bring some new life in to pvp. Which is all there really is for end game in Meridian.

take in mind these are starting figures.. they could be adjusted 5% here and there. Also this coupled with almost 100% revs on lowbie killed chars would hinder a lot of newbie killings

This system will really create some incentive, for hunters to get off there a$$ and start hunting.. They get something out of it. Hell Id even kill other pks to get a 100k dropped in my bank lol.. Also with more hunters. pks are more limited. When a pk logs on. alot of people will already start getting set up and wait for them at the usual spot to tag and get a bounty :)

[MorbusM59]

Those numbers sound fairly reasonable. I'm not against an implementation in that way. I don't think it will create a huge monetary incentive for hunters, but it sure doesn't hurt either.

[Fike103]

I'd low down the pker hps to 120 (for bounty to start working), because Fike will always be lower than 130 :)