[RA] The official map pool. Out with the old...

[SoScared]

As requested here's a list of maps I believe think should be wiped off the official map pool. We need to take advantage of newer and better maps from the resource center and make sure we regularly replace the outdated and old. This will also encourage people to make more and better maps for the future.

This list I think presents the worst ones and imo are beyond salvage. The list progress in the same order as in the official map tab in-game.

Burlesca (2 players) Styrian Mountains (2 players) Contact (4 players) Island Hoppers (4 players) Pearly Wastelands (4 players) Breaking Point (8 players) Central Conflict (8 players) Raraku (8 players) (swap with Caffeinated, see #10710) Ring of Fire (8 players) High & Low Extended (10 players)

[psydev]

I would just like to add, it would be really useful if we collected statistics from servers on which maps were the most/least used. That would give us an idea of what players enjoy playing.

[pchote]

We have those stats, and they can be queried from the master server. e.g. compare Tainted Peak (2 plays recorded) against SoScared's Sidestep (352 plays).

[kyrylo]

@pchote due to rehashing of the maps the counters are not accurate. Tainted Peak has more plays (223).

[pchote]

Here's a list of the stats for release-20151224:

mods/ra/maps/doubles.oramap 2105
mods/ra/maps/singles.oramap 1630
mods/ra/maps/tournament-island.oramap   1504
mods/ra/maps/vegetation.oramap  1113
mods/ra/maps/haos-ridges.oramap 1043
mods/ra/maps/bombardment-islands.oramap 669
mods/ra/maps/regeneration-basin.oramap  662
mods/ra/maps/ore-lord.oramap    590
mods/ra/maps/chaos-canyon.oramap    507
mods/ra/maps/synergy.oramap 440
mods/ra/maps/keep-off-the-grass-2.oramap    405
mods/ra/maps/barracuda.oramap   394
mods/ra/maps/puddles-redux.oramap   394
mods/ra/maps/sidestep.oramap    352
mods/ra/maps/mad-science.oramap 342
mods/ra/maps/temperal.oramap    310
mods/ra/maps/Sahara.oramap  308
mods/ra/maps/mass-confliction.oramap    299
mods/ra/maps/snowyridge.oramap  290
mods/ra/maps/first-come-first-served.oramap 287
mods/ra/maps/engagement.oramap  285
mods/ra/maps/east-vs-west.oramap    260
mods/ra/maps/pressure.oramap    258
mods/ra/maps/all-connected.oramap   256
mods/ra/maps/ring-of-fire.oramap    244
mods/ra/maps/alaska-anarchy-redux.oramap    240
mods/ra/maps/marooned-2.oramap  230
mods/ra/maps/bloody-delta.oramap    227
mods/ra/maps/doughnut.oramap    223
mods/ra/maps/tainted-peak.oramap    223
mods/ra/maps/man-to-man.oramap  218
mods/ra/maps/cold-front.oramap  209
mods/ra/maps/ghost-town.oramap  208
mods/ra/maps/a-path-beyond.oramap   191
mods/ra/maps/calm-before-storm.oramap   179
mods/ra/maps/forest-path.oramap 178
mods/ra/maps/island-hoppers.oramap  161
mods/ra/maps/raraku.oramap  160
mods/ra/maps/bad-neighbors.oramap   152
mods/ra/maps/caffeinated.oramap 144
mods/ra/maps/snowy-island.oramap    139
mods/ra/maps/suffrage.oramap    137
mods/ra/maps/central-conflict.oramap    135
mods/ra/maps/high-and-low-extended.oramap   135
mods/ra/maps/tabula-rasa.oramap 128
mods/ra/maps/asymmetric-battle.oramap   116
mods/ra/maps/styrian-mountains.oramap   110
mods/ra/maps/blitzkrieg.oramap  98
mods/ra/maps/breaking-point.oramap  97
mods/ra/maps/coastal-influence.oramap   94
mods/ra/maps/high-and-low.oramap    94
mods/ra/maps/chokepoint.oramap  92
mods/ra/maps/equal-opportunity.oramap   91
mods/ra/maps/seaside-2.oramap   83
mods/ra/maps/encounter.oramap   79
mods/ra/maps/north-by-northwest.oramap  79
mods/ra/maps/arctic-triangle-affair.oramap  50
mods/ra/maps/contact.oramap 47
mods/ra/maps/pearly-wastelands.oramap   47

and for reference here's my horrible bash one liner to fetch the stats:

for i in $(ls mods/ra/maps/*.oramap); do echo $i, $(curl http://master.openra.net/map_stats?hash=$(mono OpenRA.Utility.exe ra --map-hash $i)); done > hashes.txt

[Micr0Bit]

best would be to first ask some of the contributers directly ... imho

@chrisforbes about Snowy Ridge , which is a nice 1v1v1 map , and we dont have lots of 1v1v1 maps

@NukemBro made Contact and Tainted Peak ... good maps , i like them

too bad buddha isnt on github , cause "pearly wastelands" is a nice classic 2v2 ... we even used to play them in the old first tournaments

i dont care that much on the westwood crap , and sw1 and Reflex arent on github ... so lets say im indifferent about removing those maps

[SoScared]

@Micr0Bit Snowy ridge has the bottom player at a terrible eco disadvantage. IMO it needs to change or go. Contact is a duplicant to other 2v2 maps and to be honest, isn't pretty.

Shouldn't map creators be treated the same way as any other contributor? If there's an improvement in code, do you ask the original author if you may replace their work?

[kyrylo]

I agree with @SoScared about everything he said in this thread. I also think it's nice to refresh the map pool from time to time. For example, @SoScared's Sidestep drastically changed the way people play this game (at least on that particular map; it stands out). We definitely should try out new maps that introduce new ideas. It's simply not fun to play for years on the same maps like Singles.

[chrisforbes]

@Micr0Bit just remove Snowy Ridge. It's terrible. I'm sorry I inflicted it on the world.

[SoScared]

@chrisforbes I'll make a re-work list for other maps tomorrow. There's a lot of maps that can be salvaged, Snowy Ridge included.

[Micr0Bit]

im not convinced about removing Snowy Ridge ... @pchote posted stats just above me , and there it says "mods/ra/maps/snowyridge.oramap 290" (that is the 19th place in the ranking) okay that was 2012 ..

*but people play this map , that might be not any of the 5-8 tourny players we have ... that might be the casuals / noobs who dont care about map balancing ... and for that reason + because its one of the few 1v1v1 maps we have im not satisfied

it doesnt need to change "nor" go

@SoScared : and yes , map creators should be treated the same way as any other contributor but since there is actually some people whos only contribution ever , was to be creative , spend their time ... and create a map ... and i played those maps bat-shit-often since 4-5 years ... i feel like (as someone who likes being creative ) theres no need to remove something that doesnt hurt openra ( we are talking about removing a couple of kb ) and preserves the presence and contribution of people (thats hardly possible with open-source-code , sadly)

its not all about "balance" ... and even when its about balance , you might want to give yourself a "disadvantage" on purpose at times by choosing the bad spot on a unbalanced map , just to give a noob that bit of a boost over you ( since we dont have any handycap-features yet)

[chrisforbes]

High number of plays for a bad map doesn't justify keeping it. It just means a lot of people have had a lousy experience.

[ghost]

I don't understand why casuals have to play old maps? Why can't newer players play newer/redone maps with proper balance and trees. They don't care for nostalgia of maps they haven't played before. And if they care for nostalgia, they would surely play the original games.

Currently some of the maps in the official pool look worse than the maps done by Westwood over 20 years ago...

I'm pretty sure these old maps are the way they are due to lack of tools and early performance reasons. The tools and codebase have caught up, but the most visual impact newer players will experience - the maps - haven't. I think these maps being in the official pool will draw an unfair comparison to the rest of the game (the codebase, balance etc).

I agree with @SoScared that people contributing maps to the game should have their work freely editable as everyone who contributes to the code base. I also think maps going into the official pool should undergo 'map review' before going into the game just like code does.

:+1: for the maps listed

[Micr0Bit]

i didnt say that casuals have to play old maps ... and nobody is against new maps ... i just refuse to let go of some "openra-classics" (not westwood classics)

@chrisforbes : what is a "lousy experience" for you on a map ? when you loose ?

[SoScared]

Ok so I started working on a new job list of maps that should be reworked. There's lot's of time to be saved by upping the quality of the existing maps, including Snowy Ridge. Some maps need balancing but many of them needs an aesthetic overhaul (e.g. actors, ridge formations).

@Micr0Bit : I agree, we should try to keep the classics but imo that requires some of them to be altered. I'll be adding Snowy Ridge to that list. I think holding on to bad maps in favor of better ones (created by equally hard working people, if not harder) is gonna hurt the enthusiasm for making maps.

[Micr0Bit]

@SoScared : sounds good to me

[cjshmyr]

:+1:

[obrakmann]

FWIW, I'd like to nominate the following:

• Blitzkrieg
• Breaking Point
• Encounter
• High & Low (+ Extended)
• Mass Confliction

Those make my eyes bleed.

[SoScared]

@obrakmann : I'm hoping Encounter, High & Low and Mass Confliction can be reworked. #10718

[SoScared]

@obrakmann Have a look at Encounter, High & Low and Mass Confliction in #10718

Blitzkrieg looks like a popular map among casual players. Besides being a bit "square-y" it doesn't look too horrific IMO.

Breaking Point, agreed. 4 vs 4 player on a very small, very choke-y map. Never had a good game on it.

High and Low Extended (10 players), I might take a stab at tweaking this map. But in it's current state I'd favor removal.

*edit: disregard High and Low Extended

[SoScared]

Adding Raraku as a suggestion for removal. Caffeinated is a similar map in style (except more choked) and in number of players, but has better player positioning (easier team setup) and IMO will appeal more to casual players.

Counter to #10712

[Murto]

@Micr0Bit I agree that that there are a few maps that should be kept as OpenRA Classics. Why not implement a third "Classic" tab which includes these maps?

[Micr0Bit]

@MurtoTheRay : why not implement a tab just for SoScareds maps ? what i mean by that is , everyone has their own perception of "map balance" and about the importance of it ... i dont like when one person points at stuff and then a handfull of devotees blindly agree to everything they watch on the public stream of those person ... we have a lot of good (old) players in openra , and SS + 5Aces are by no means experts on OpenRA-related stuff , even though they talk about it on their streams ... and all those people have their own head in terms of game-balance and map-balance

ive experienced just on github , theres always people "come and go" ... changing things and then disappear the next day because they loose interest ... and i want to avoid being exposed to ideas from single contributers which then (maybe) turn out to be "bad ideas" ... but the "causer" of the (maybe) dislikes or problems dont care anymore or simply disappeared

i think its important in open-source projects to show agreement as well as resistance on contributions ... otherwise stuff gets implemented halfhearted (im talking about content here) and we end-up having broken , ugly or failed ideas implemented and then afterwards nobody cares about it

[SoScared]

@Micr0Bit Jeez Microbit. Couldn't you type this (condescending) rant in the forum or something? It's a total derail.

[Micr0Bit]

@SoScared : oh , im sorry , i didnt mean to be condescending ... i like you , and i like the work you are putting into the community ... i was just pointing out the reason why im "against" it , first of all. causing contoversy can lead to more people getting involved and say their oppinion

im willing to give this a try for a playtest ... so i change my thumb

:+1:

[SoScared]

There's still related discussions going on in the forums so I'm guessing there's no rush to declare consensus until we're closer to a playtest.

[ghost]

@Micr0Bit

first of all. causing contoversy can lead to more people getting involved and say their oppinion

Oh, wait a second, getting more people to voice their opinion and have a discussion is considered bad all of a sudden. And by the way, if an issue is controversial it is a yet one more reason to discuss it, not less reasons.

everyone has their own perception of "map balance"

And everyone has their own perception of red color. But still it is not something subjective. Stop using those postmodernistic "arguments", Microbit. Map balance is not just a subjective thing. It can be assessed and evaluated.

and i want to avoid being exposed to ideas from single contributers which then (maybe) turn out to be "bad ideas"

That's why we are having a discussion right here! To present arguments to understand whose idea is the best one.

i dont like when one person points at stuff and then a handfull of devotees blindly agree to everything they watch on the public stream of those person ...

Oh, thanks, now I am shoved into a category of "SoScared's blind devotees". I do not just blindly accept his opinion. I agree with him, because he presented reasons and arguments to me. And my reasons, thoughts and feelings are somewhat the same as his on this issue.

i think its important in open-source projects to show agreement as well as resistance on contributions ...

After having a reasonable discussion, which you are trying to shut down.

we have a lot of good (old) players in openra , and SS + 5Aces are by no means experts on OpenRA-related stuff , even though they talk about it on their streams ...

Being old or good does not give you more expertise in this issue. Stop using ad hominem.

[Micr0Bit]

as much as i would love to answer this , its better im not doing it ... and we should stay on topic

[jaZzKCS]

Please stay on topic. Please DO have a lively discussion about the balancing, as it is desired, albeit NOT HERE. Use the Balance Thread in the forums to continue discussing, this place is reserved for the possible flush of old maps...

[SoScared]

Latest changes, added:

Breaking Point: 8 players fighting through 2 narrow chokes. Also it's one of the 'capture the middle or die' kind of maps, but doesn't make it obvious to new or casual players. There's no interest in altering the map either since it would alter the map's original purpose.

Raraku: Fugly version of map Caffeinated. See main post on Caffeinated in #10710.

High & Low Extended: I altered High & Low (8 players) but I won't for this one. Personally I remember plenty of good fun games on H&L (played big team games quite a lot some years ago) but can't remember one single good game on H&L Extended. These map types prolongs matches that are already decided with little interesting after-play, meaning once one side has an insurmountable lead it becomes tiresome killing off opponents choosing the 'last man standing' policy. Besides from being a bit of a mess, map 'H&L Extended' simply pulls this last point a bit too far.