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OpenSourceEBike / Bafang_M500_M600

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M500 (M600?) Current limit #25

Closed KyokushinPL closed 3 years ago

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

Its been discovered the 0x774 in firmware is corresponding to the Current Limit, but it seems to be not exactly that, because:

So 0x774 may mean something different than max limit or maybe there is also some multiplier or some other addres also responsible for the limits.

I am opening the Current Limit thread for discussion, to keep it separated.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

Thread is fine with me :) Thanks for the hard work :)

doctorrevenge commented 3 years ago

Unbenannt i think somebody at leaderfox has a tool to change firmwares. We need a contact ;)

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

@doctorrevenge I got multiple reports about this brand already, I call it a hoax and fake for now. As there are no m500 firmwares on the website. Instead of a screenshot, please actually provide a download URL.

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

For now the most mysterious (at least for me) files are: CRX10NC4812i142015.5-12A-20210616.bin (0A on 0x774) - stronger than 10 Amps in real - around 570 (or higher, need re-test) CRX10NC3617i142017.7-28-2230-20200911.bin (0F on 0x774) - stronger than 15Amps, possibly around 750W because they have measured and confirmed significantly higher 'peak' power than Hex value on 0x774 is stored

doctorrevenge commented 3 years ago

https://www.leaderfox.cz/en/guides

You Can download it there. Scroll to the end. I tested the Firmware for m300 and m500. Both works

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

https://www.leaderfox.cz/en/guides

You Can download it there. Scroll to the end. I tested the Firmware for m300 and m500. Both works

I just get a 404

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

@doctorrevenge can you send everything and screenshot by enail possibly?

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

@doctorrevenge can you send everything and screenshot by enail possibly?

@Ornias1993 https://www.leaderfox.cz/data/file/BESST%20Bafang%20mid%20motor%20%20firmware%20AJ.zip here is direct url unofrunately the're all are for 36V version, but maybe will help to figure something out.

cpardo13 commented 3 years ago

@KyokushinPL hello. The m600 36v25A firmware (CRX10NC3625i132047.7-28-2230-20201121) also have 0F (15A) in 0x0774. With around 900w of power. (my ebike run with this originally)

And the m600 36v15A (CRX10NC3615i132001.0-28-2230-25-20210114-2) have 14 (20A) in 0x0774. I'm waiting the besst tool to try the CRX10NC3615i132001.0-28-2230-25-20210114-2 and the experimental with low level optimized.

doctorrevenge commented 3 years ago

Maybe we must try to make it possible to Flash m600 36V 25A in a m500 Motor and See whats happening. Maybe it is easier to change m500/600 ID in Firmware to make it flashable...

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

@doctorrevenge Got your firmwares and added them to the catalog :)

Great idea btw, i'll create an experimental firmware to try flash m600 on m500 boards šŸ‘

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

I've just added 2 experimental firmwares (one for 36v and one for 48v) that are m600 firmwares with a change that should force BESST to flash them to m500.

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

Its working and i seen max 990 W output on my 48V M500 so it seems to be 20Amps limit. However, i reverted to M500 firmware. M600 have slightly different gears, different assistance levels probably and finally less MOSFETs on controller board, i would like to avoid burn controller. Engine should handle that, finally its same as M600 except one plastic gear (early M600 models had same plastic gear), but i am not sure of the controler will handle 1kW in daily usage.

Its rainy day, i cant check on road. I am curious now if we cant raise power of M500 - maybe its worth trying to reduce M600 and by experiments figure out safe limit.

If on stock "CRX10NC3617i142017.7-28-2230-20200911.bin" guys are having around 750W (or more - its just blowed up the scale - according to https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/bafang-m500-m600-tuning-the-besst-tool.18860/page-3#post-323051 ) then we can assume 16A as safe for 48V, and in overall 750W as safe.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

Its working and i seen max 990 W output on my 48V M500 so it seems to be 20Amps limit. However, i reverted to M500 firmware. M600 have slightly different gears, different assistance levels probably and finally less MOSFETs on controller board, i would like to avoid burn controller.

Thats interesting, thanks for your feedback... Thats some success right there :)

Engine should handle that, finally its same as M600 except one plastic gear (early M600 models had same plastic gear), but i am not sure of the controler will handle 1kW in daily usage.

Yeah the actuall Electromotor shouldn't be the issue here. That being said: The M600 with double MOSFETS, should be able to handle more than 2KW, so I think 1KW with half the MOSFETS should work out fine šŸ‘

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

I've ported all m600 firmwares to m500 with the same little fix that forces BESST to upload them. It's in the custom firmware folder for m500, with an "625" suffix.

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

The M600 with double MOSFETS, should be able to handle more than 2KW, so I think 1KW with half the MOSFETS should work out fine šŸ‘

how about shunt resistors? M600 have two, M500 one.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

The M600 with double MOSFETS, should be able to handle more than 2KW, so I think 1KW with half the MOSFETS should work out fine šŸ‘

how about shunt resistors? M600 have two, M500 one.

Shunt resistors and amp-ratings really aren't the limiting factor here. One shuntresistor isn't magically going to blow up the board, simply put: MOSFETS have WAY lower durability because they need to handle all the powerflow, shuntresistors do not have to hence can handle way more power.

In theory halfing the amount of resistance should half the amp readings. Which it clearly didn't do in your test... I expected for a while that the firmware might be able to handle both single AND dual resistors or that the resistors in the m600 combined have the same rating as the single resistor in the m500. Which could explain why the firmware worked for you at all :)

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

I have observed the temperature of controller and engine and there was no noticeable (in my not reliable test) higher than on M500 f/w. I just put highest gear, slightly used the rear breake (to simulate the road resistance) and push up the throttle to achieve highest possible power value on display. Its silly way of testing at home but if something is working then its not silly ;)

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

I have performed additional tests, as i suspected the stock f/w "CRX10NC4812i142015.5-12A-20210616.bin" have 672W peak otuput what is meaning this have 14Amps not 12 Amps.

It seems 0x774 does not mean max current, however in my opinion its connected with current somehow but rather with degradation of power in battery charge function - for example - on 50% of battery you will have more peak power on 0F than on 0A. I need to make more road tests for this, because this peak output degradation is annoying and 670W in peak works pretty good.

@Ornias1993 @CiDi-IT Other findings are: 0x1008 and 0x1009 there is some pattern worth to investigate. I tried to figure out that but i am too short so far.

P.S. 0x0000 - f/w unlock - worth to document somerwhere 88 - M500 89 - M600

<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:x="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

no | filename | measured peak power | engine model | reports after flashing | 0x774 value | other | MD5 -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- 1 | CRX10NC4810i132003.0-28-2230-20210114-2.bin | ~576 | M600 | CRX10NC4810i132003.0 | 12 | Ā  | 2ba44bd1fc96f7305d8f386e5dcd4fae 2 | CRX10NC4812i142015.5-12A-20210616.bin | ~672 | M500 | CRX10NC4810i142015.5 | 0A | reporting same name as CRX10NC4810i142015.5-20191126.bin | 8f37da1b65ae85d87938fc91b495f0f 3 | CRX10NC4810i142015.5-20191126.bin | ~576 | M500 | CRX10NC4810i142015.5 | 0A | Ā  | 2c994dce269ea827c540182867d6992b 4 | CRX10NC4818i132014.6-20191126.bin | ~990 | M600 | CRX10NC4818i132014.6 | 12 | Ā  | b79263073a6d7a9005c405b7e66603f2 5 | CRX10NC4818i132046.6-28-2230-20200824-3.bin | ~990 | M600 | CRX10NC4818i132046.6 | 12 | Ā  | 4916960cce34b0e3e60ab9d1502ccfb9 6 | CRX10NC4818i132046.7-28-2230-20201121.bin | ~990 | M600 | CRX10NC4818i132046.7 | 12 | Ā  | 7d0de61112c47456556f5520ab679154 7 | CRX10NC4810i142050.6-22-1768-20201109.bin | N/A | M500 | CRX10NC4810i142050.6 | 0A | throttle lockedĀ  to walk mode low speed (around 5km/h), unable to test | 3b5c8c55adec18664418f7db1b7ecea7

doctorrevenge commented 3 years ago

i have tested the modded m500 36V 25A Firmware... it works. i see peaks of 1000W and 25A but the 36V17A is more aggressive... I like it more. a dream is the peak from 36V25A in the 36V17A firmware ;)

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

what peak you have on 36V17A ? what exact filename you tested for 25A?

doctorrevenge commented 3 years ago

On 17A ca. 750w an 20A peak On "625" 25A testfirmware ca. 1000w an 25A peak But the 17A firmware is better... maybe my Battery or bms cant handle 25A stable?!? What about the guy with the crussis largo 9.6 he has the biggest battery from crussis installed... maybe it works better on his bike.

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

battery surely is fine, its same one as for M600. Maybe its not 1000W, maybe its only displaying 1000W, its worth checking. Vmax test on full throttle should verify that. If peak is a true 1000W then vmax will be higher no matter what.

So it seem on CRX10NC3617i142017.7-28-2230-20200911.bin you have 20-21Amps (21A if output is higher than 720 on 36V version).

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

i have tested the modded m500 36V 25A Firmware... it works. i see peaks of 1000W and 25A but the 36V17A is more aggressive... I like it more. a dream is the peak from 36V25A in the 36V17A firmware ;)

You mean the firmware starting with 625? Please people actually use filenames like @KyokushinPL

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

@KyokushinPL youre right, it might display more than is actually used due to having one less resistor!

vMax? Velocity max? Max velocity and max rpm wont change with current afaik...

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

If peak power is higher then max velocity (vmax) will be higher, same bike, same gears, more power = higher speed on WOT (wide open throttle). I think it will be slight difference - 3-5km/h.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

Ahh vmax under zero resistance? Yeah that should be different indeed :) Though you would also need to nuke the speedlimits and such.

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

The maximum speed on road test, on same road and same resistance. On zero resistance he will hit 60km/h limit always. We need a simulation of dyno run in same and repeatable test environment.

So if @doctorrevenge need to go to flat road, put max assistance and ride so fast as he can on only throttle at the end (to remove the human assistance factor from measurement ). And IF this 1000W is real then he will achieve higher maximum speed.

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

@Ornias1993 the files CRX10NC4810i142015.5-20191126.bin and CRX10NC4818i132014.6-20191126.bin looks similar, same date, one is m500 and one m600, one have 570 peak and second around 1kW.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

So? What are you responding on?

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

I tried to compare them in matter for "max current" difference, something other than 0x774, but dont have clue how to move it forward :/ maybe these two be somehow useful to you.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

@KyokushinPL i suggest starting to focus on 625 vs normal m500 firmwares instead.

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

I done the road test and:

@Ornias1993 So it seems we back to the beginning.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

@KyokushinPL Well not really back to the beginning:

Anyway: Could you make a list/table for each firmware for the m500 (official firmware that is) what your max wattage reading is? I could add that info to the readme to help people select firmware based on actual performance instead of filename!

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

@Ornias1993 A list with wattage is done (for original Bafang firmware and 48V version), i have moved columns with wattage to the left.

I had also thinking about the adding the missing hardware (mosfets and resistor) will allow to achieve real peak 1kW output and turn M500 board to M600 board or not, however i would be more happy to add +100W to M500 peak and adjust this current decay threshold on lower battery voltage - its annoying.

This 670W 48V M500 works really good - imo better than bbs02 (750W) in this bike and engine, and M600 surely will be more power consuming - an honestly - 840W battery is not so 'big' as it appearing to be. I do not know how people are using they're ebike with smaller battery, because for me 840Wh is not enough (around 55km range on full 5 assist/throttle)

On 17A ca. 750w an 20A peak On "625" 25A testfirmware ca. 1000w an 25A peak But the 17A firmware is better... maybe my Battery or bms cant handle 25A stable?!? What about the guy with the crussis largo 9.6 he has the biggest battery from crussis installed... maybe it works better on his bike.

@doctorrevenge could you check the vmax on throttle on CRX10NC3617i142017.7-28-2230-20200911.bin and 625-CRX10NC3625i132047.7-28-2230-20201121.bin ? I would like to compare your findings with mine.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

@Ornias1993 A list with wattage is done (for original Bafang firmware and 48V version), you need to scroll table right.

I want a clear table with ALL m500 firmwares. I'm seeing a few m500 and a few m600 firmwares. Can you make something more clear please, also: donnot modify the firmwares. Just the official firmwares.

I had also thinking about the adding the missing hardware (mosfets and resistor) will allow to achieve real peak 1kW output and turn M500 board to M600 board or not, however i would be more happy to add +100W to M500 peak and adjust this current decay threshold on lower battery voltage - its annoying.

No you do NOT need the extra mosfets for 1KW output. just the resistor. I'll explain again: M600 mosfets are build for 2kw peak. m500 for 1kw peak.

I do not know how people are using they're ebike with smaller battery, because for me 840Wh is not enough (around 55km range on full 5 assist/throttle)

They do not use full 5 assist and no throttle (because that is even illegal in the EU)

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

Table for M500 (only known official):

<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:x="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

no | filename | measured peak power | voltage | engine model | reports after flashing | 0x774 value | comments | MD5 -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- 1 | CRX10NC4812i142015.5-12A-20210616.bin | ~672 | 48 | M500 | CRX10NC4810i142015.5 | 0A | reporting same name as CRX10NC4810i142015.5-20191126.bin | 8f37da1b65ae85d87938fc91b495f0f 2 | CRX10NC4810i142015.5-20191126.bin | ~576 | 48 | M500 | CRX10NC4810i142015.5 | 0A | Ā  | 2c994dce269ea827c540182867d6992b 3 | CRX10NC4810i142050.6-22-1768-20201109.bin | N/A | 48 | M500 | CRX10NC4810i142050.6 | 0A | throttle lockedĀ  to walk mode low speed (around 5km/h), unable to test | 3b5c8c55adec18664418f7db1b7ecea7 4 | CRX10NC3615i142011.5-28-2230-20191230.bin | N/A | 36 | M500 | N/A | 0F | from "leaderFox" ECO medium performance saves battery | 4a277120ea66dbbf6270146ebea9bb5d 5 | CRX10NC3615i142017.5-28-2230-20200519-2.bin | N/A | 36 | M500 | N/A | 0F | from "lederFox"Ā  high performance with battery save mode | 5c656debf126026710b7b5b0d0ef5127 6 | CRX10NC3615i142017.5-28-2230-20200724-1.bin | N/A | 36 | M500 | N/A | 0F | from "lederFox"Ā  STRONG high performance without battery save mode + strong walk assist | 83c79198fd81cbaeadc951254ac927b7 7 | CRX10NC3615i142037.5-29-2330-20200437-boost-15KM.bin | N/A | 36 | M500 | N/A | 0F | boost enabled from 15km/h instead of 25km/h | e84c72041ef70704a67ba05e820403b0 8 | CRX10NC3615i142055.6-28-2230-20201019.bin | N/A | 36 | M500 | N/A | 0F | Ā  | 5062d5a5bdc45f8546f05bb52c15e32c 9 | CRX10NC3615i142059.6-28-2230-20201218.bin | N/A | 36 | M500 | N/A | 0F | Ā  | 5127b91fbfcd60bf57917cdbdc077a70 10 | CRX10NC3617i142017.7-28-2230-20200911.bin | ~750 | 36 | M500 | N/A | 0F | Ā  | 8d1aac25a440e8b680597caec8757cd5

If i will add the resitor and get all of it opened and dismounted then i also can add the mosfets, its same work and will be more reliable.

In my country (Poland) the case of throttle is not fully clear (it depend who is interpreting the law) - a grey area (it may be detached anytime), the law is saying about the motor, but nothing about bike can have throttle or must not.

However there is excellent BOOST function what is giving max output after hitting the 25km/h limit what is working like on/off throttle in fact. There is one firmware for 36V version with lowered this limit to 15km/h, i have even try to find in what hex it can be stored but found nothing.

doctorrevenge commented 3 years ago

On the CRX10NC3617i142017.7-28-2230-20200911.bin Max speed is ca. 55kmh on Bicycle stand

On the 625-CRX10NC3625i132047.7-28-2230-20201121.bin Max speed is ca. 45kmh on Bicycle stand

With the 17A firmware the bike Shows most the time 750W till Vmax. With the 25A firmware the bike Shows ca. 1000W but not often. It "jumps" between 500 - 1000 but Not constant... maybe the Controller from m500 is not strong enough for the 1KW?!?! Or 25A? Anybody test the 48V M600 Firmware with the M500 Motor on the road? Not only on Bicycle stand? What about the Vmax?

doctorrevenge commented 3 years ago

20210505_210318

doctorrevenge commented 3 years ago

With 17A Firmware on flat road...

doctorrevenge commented 3 years ago

Maybe we must find the difference between the Stock 15A 36V m500 firmware and the 17A m500 firmware. The 17A firmware was sent to me by an bafang engineer... so tuning file is direct from Bafang. No Mods ;) and the difference to the "standard" firmware is amazing... for the 48V m500 Motor it doesnt exist tuning firmware from Bafang?! I asked for it, but the bafang employer wanted a serial Nr from the Motor, i cant answer ;) maybe you can sent me a number and i ask for it again.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

@KyokushinPL Awesome table, thats what I wanted :) mind finishing the power readings for all of them? That way we can add that the completed table to the readme...

If i will add the resitor and get all of it opened and dismounted then i also can add the mosfets, its same work and will be more reliable.

You could. But for a novice solderer, the shunts are easier to solder because they have bigger pads, that was what I was refering to ;-)

In my country (Poland) the case of throttle is not fully clear (it depend who is interpreting the law) - a grey area (it may be detached anytime), the law is saying about the motor, but nothing about bike can have throttle or must not.

Nope, EU regulation is clear as day. Just because Poland did a bad translation is kinda irrelevant. Said EU law is a regulation and not a directive. Regulations have direct power of law in all member states. To be precise: no. 168/2013 art 2 sub 2 under h prohibits throttles, as power is required to be cut when you stop paddling.

@doctorrevenge

maybe the Controller from m500 is not strong enough for the 1KW?!?! Or 25A? Anybody test the 48V M600 Firmware with the M500 Motor on the road? Not only on Bicycle stand? What about the Vmax?

PLEASE stop. I already know why the performance was lower. It is a very normal response due to having half the resistors. Its 100% what I initially expected when I ported m600 firmware to m500. There is nothing to worry about and 100% understood. It has nothing to do with the controller not being strong enough. It's all 100% clear.

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

@Ornias1993 in Poland our regional law is over anything else. UE wanted to change that and UE may want whatever, but UE law don't override our PL law in any matter (there was many cases, different than ebikes about that - if there is conflict or something is unwritten then our PL law is over that) not so far ago, but our gov don't agree, so if our law will tell us to wear only red and white then we have to, it does not matter what UE say ;) I understand clearly what you wrote, but PL is specific case, please belive me.

As I wrote, we have different categorisation than rest of EU, we have no speed pedelec, ebike, L1A etc. We have bicycle (powered up to 25km/h, nothing about throttle, but should be cut to 25km/h) <250W, motored-bicycle (250<4kW), motorcycle 4kW, and only bicycle can use bike road lanes and only bicycle don't require driving licence. I have full A motorcycle driving licence so i can ride anything. Literally every ebike here have no limit and mostly are around 1kW (people don't care), however it will change i expect soon so i wanted to have EU legit 250W bike with possibilty to remove and add restrictions, detach throttle and have legit wattage on engine plate and serial numbers, and honestly this M500 seems to be perfect (even on 670W, but 36V with 750W seems to be better choice, but i was not eware of it (probably no one was) )

So if anyone want something more powerful or faster its simply better to buy a legit motorcycle (and i had two cruisers). At now i am going to use bike lanes and ride to place where its hard to park a car or motorcycle and mostly i am riding <25km/h... and i love ebike for its just 'quiet'.

Unfortunately i have 48V motor so i cant fill the 36V wattage, i have filled that for all 48V including that M600 adapted ones.

@doctorrevenge, thank you for testing, so its confirmed by two tests how it work. I am little curious why my vmax on 1000W M600 f/w is 10km/h lower than yours. Colud you write what teeth you have in bike and what tires (i have 27.5x2.8)?

I am trying to compare these different f/ws and i have no idea how to dig where this max current is stored :( Maybe the value is for one transistor and M600 it just doubling, so maybe the the 570W M600 will have a half of power of M500 570W, maybe that comparison is worth checking - its only my speculation

@Ornias1993 please kindly take a look on CRX10NC4810i132003.0-28-2230-20210114-2.bin (570W) )vs CRX10NC4818i132046.6-28-2230-20200824-3.bin (1kW) they're almost identical

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

@Ornias1993 I understand clearly what you wrote, but PL is specific case, please belive me.

No, you're wrong. I think you do not have any formal legal education? (and with that I'm not talking about a single course within some other form of education) Because you clearly have some issues with some basic principles in international and european law.

In those other legal maters (between the EU and Poland), it was indeed the case that the polish constitutional court states that the polish constitution takes precedence over EU law. Which is actually not that different from Germany for example. Actually: the same discussion (but with less publicity) has been ongoing with germany since the start of the EU.

However: What I explained is not related to those current ongoing cases. EU regulations, even in Poland, are directly applicable. The Polish Consitutional court has not decided otherwise either.

As I wrote, we have different categorisation than rest of EU, we have no speed pedelec, ebike, L1A etc.

Speed pedelecs are L1B ;-) But: you actually do have L1A and L1B, Poland has no freedom not to accept those definitions. However: EU countries are free not allowing L1A and L1B to be driven on public roads ;-)

The EU does not dictate how a certain catagory can be ridden in a country, they just define the catagories. It is a very hard and complication difference, but it has to do with the fact that the EU can make regulations about goods (such as defining good catagories) but cannot define traffic rules (including weither or not a vehicle can be ridden in a certain country)

We have bicycle (powered up to 25km/h, nothing about throttle, but should be cut to 25km/h) <250W,

You can already see they tried to implement precisely that regulation, but just missed some notes when applying them. So they actually do try to follow EU classifications

motored-bicycle (250<4kW)

Poland has chosen to combine L1B and L1E, which is actually the same as the Netherlands has done in practice for example. So Yes: They do have speed pedelecs. Keep in mind: The throttle requirement does not exist for L1B and L1E ;-)

motorcycle 4kW, and only bicycle can use bike road lanes and only bicycle don't require driving licence. I have full A motorcycle driving licence so i can ride anything.

These are traffic rules and are not defined by EU law (see above). So yes: These can be different from other EU countries. Except one thing: ebikes <25kmh <250w without throttle cannot be classified something other than a bicycle by memberstates. Which means they cannot add a license requirement for them.

Literally every ebike here have no limit and mostly are around 1kW (people don't care), however it will change i expect soon so i wanted to have EU legit 250W bike with possibilty to remove and add restrictions, detach throttle and have legit wattage on engine plate and serial numbers, and honestly this M500 seems to be perfect (even on 670W, but 36V with 750W seems to be better choice, but i was not eware of it (probably no one was) )

I agree that the m500 is a pretty safe bet when it comes to EU compliance, yes.

Unfortunately i have 48V motor so i cant fill the 36V wattage, i have filled that for all 48V including that M600 adapted ones.

Ahh sorry that explains things, yes :)

I am little curious why my vmax on 1000W M600 f/w is 10km/h lower than yours. Colud you write what teeth you have in bike and what tires (i have 27.5x2.8)?

Lets not get offtopic please. It's not relevant at all, because these tests where JUST designed to see if there is ANY difference. There are, byond that it's not relevant because I already know with 100% certainty what caused it. Those other metrics are just the tests being inaccurate.

So please do not derail the topic at hand with irrelevant additional information which only confuses people.

I am trying to compare these different f/ws and i have no idea how to dig where this max current is stored :(

Donnot even try, it takes specialist knowhow to do this. There are no easily defined current definitions byond what I already documented in terms of possibilities.

Maybe the value is for one transistor and M600 it just doubling, so maybe the the 570W M600 will have a half of power of M500 570W, maybe that comparison is worth checking - its only my speculation

Please stop guessing here, for everything with electro technical knowhow it's super clear what happens here.

Half the resistence on the shunt resistor (aka: 2 instead of 1 shunt resistor) means it reads half the current, double the resistance means it reads double the current.

So the m500 just reads double the current of the m600. That was what I already expected and why I didn't create those 625 firmwares initially.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

@Ornias1993 I understand clearly what you wrote, but PL is specific case, please belive me.

No, you're wrong. I think you do not have any formal legal education? Because you clearly have some issues with some basic principles in international and european law.

In those other legal maters (between the EU and Poland), it was indeed the case that the polish constitutional court states that the polish constitution takes precedence over EU law. Which is actually not that different from Germany for example. Actually: the same discussion (but with less publicity) has been ongoing with germany since the start of the EU.

However: What I explained is not related to those current ongoing cases. EU regulations, even in Poland, are directly applicable. The Polish Consitutional court has not decided otherwise either.

As I wrote, we have different categorisation than rest of EU, we have no speed pedelec, ebike, L1A etc.

Speed pedelecs are L1B ;-) But: you actually do have L1A and L1B, Poland has no freedom not to accept those definitions. However: EU countries are free not allowing L1A and L1B to be driven on public roads ;-)

The EU does not dictate how a certain catagory can be ridden in a country, they just define the catagories. It is a very hard and complication difference, but it has to do with the fact that the EU can make regulations about goods (such as defining good catagories) but cannot define traffic rules (including weither or not a vehicle can be ridden in a certain country)

Simply put: The EU has the authority to define what consitutes a bicycle, but Poland has the freedom to ban bicycles everywhere.

We have bicycle (powered up to 25km/h, nothing about throttle, but should be cut to 25km/h) <250W,

You can already see they tried to implement precisely that regulation, but just missed some notes when applying them. So they actually do try to follow EU classifications

motored-bicycle (250<4kW)

Poland has chosen to combine L1B and L1E, which is actually the same as the Netherlands has done in practice for example. So Yes: They do have speed pedelecs. Keep in mind: The throttle requirement does not exist for L1B and L1E ;-)

motorcycle 4kW, and only bicycle can use bike road lanes and only bicycle don't require driving licence. I have full A motorcycle driving licence so i can ride anything.

These are traffic rules and are not defined by EU law (see above). So yes: These can be different from other EU countries. Except one thing: ebikes <25kmh <250w without throttle cannot be classified something other than a bicycle by memberstates. Which means they cannot add a license requirement for them.

Literally every ebike here have no limit and mostly are around 1kW (people don't care), however it will change i expect soon so i wanted to have EU legit 250W bike with possibilty to remove and add restrictions, detach throttle and have legit wattage on engine plate and serial numbers, and honestly this M500 seems to be perfect (even on 670W, but 36V with 750W seems to be better choice, but i was not eware of it (probably no one was) )

I agree that the m500 is a pretty safe bet when it comes to EU compliance, yes.

Unfortunately i have 48V motor so i cant fill the 36V wattage, i have filled that for all 48V including that M600 adapted ones.

Ahh sorry that explains things, yes :)

I am little curious why my vmax on 1000W M600 f/w is 10km/h lower than yours. Colud you write what teeth you have in bike and what tires (i have 27.5x2.8)?

Lets not get offtopic please. It's not relevant at all, because these tests where JUST designed to see if there is ANY difference. There are, byond that it's not relevant because I already know with 100% certainty what caused it. Those other metrics are just the tests being inaccurate.

So please do not derail the topic at hand with irrelevant additional information which only confuses people.

I am trying to compare these different f/ws and i have no idea how to dig where this max current is stored :(

Donnot even try, it takes specialist knowhow to do this. There are no easily defined current definitions byond what I already documented in terms of possibilities.

Maybe the value is for one transistor and M600 it just doubling, so maybe the the 570W M600 will have a half of power of M500 570W, maybe that comparison is worth checking - its only my speculation

Please stop guessing here, for everything with electro technical knowhow it's super clear what happens here.

Half the resistence on the shunt resistor (aka: 2 instead of 1 shunt resistor) means it reads half the current, double the resistance means it reads double the current.

So the m500 just reads double the current of the m600. That was what I already expected and why I didn't create those 625 firmwares initially.

please kindly take a look on CRX10NC4810i132003.0-28-2230-20210114-2.bin (570W) )vs CRX10NC4818i132046.6-28-2230-20200824-3.bin (1kW) they're almost identical

Can you please not tell me how to do the reverse enginering steps I already have done to get you these experimental firmwares and documentation in the first place? >.<

Really, I understand you want things to work out... But you are going to explain basic EU legal issues to someone with a legal background, guessing how a shunt resistor works to someone who know how a shunt resistor works and explaining how to reverse engineer firmware values to someone who just wrote the documentation on it. :')

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

Only one thing what is obligated PL citizen to know for riding a car or bike is our road law and that one is defining a bike here, and here and only here are bicycle is defined, and as i wrote, there is nothing about throttles and internal discussion is about how it should be understood - about case its not defined or its implied from EU as you wrote (law guys are arguing about that).

I am not saying you're wrong - just explaining how it looks here from this country perspective. I have no studied international law, but computer science :) Law is not my area.

However, M500 is EU compliant and have BOOST mode what is pushing engine to mode where is exceeding 25km/h and paddling is not required.

I am also not trying to tell you how to do rev eng, I am far away from that - i have a hope to learn something from you - i have totally no experience with reversing hardware or its software. I really do appreciate your work here and big thanx for that, its amazing for me what is happening here where i am reading new updates to proejct.

As i remember for 'almost identical' comparison was used other firmwares whre 0x774 was discovered, but these one what i wrote here just above have identical same first blocks, identical middle, end and, even 0x774, different is only name and literally few bits.

Check it please - its really interesting, but i have a lack of knowledge to chew this ;)

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

that one is defining a bike here, and here and only here are bicycle is defined

Thats simply not true or at the very least has to comply with EU law or is void(able).

about case its not defined or its implied from EU as you wrote.

It's literally stated in EU law. There is no legal debate possible about that. None. Sorry, but you're wrong here.

I am not saying you're wrong - just explaining how it looks. I have no studied international law, but computer science :) Law is not my area.

Maybe you should defer to people that did in that case, instead of repeating yourself when I literally pointed you towards the regulation that prohibits throttle AND is directly applicable in memberstates due to the legal weight of EU regulations on the definition of goods within the internal market.

However, M500 is EU compliant and have BOOST mode what is pushing engine to mode where is exceeding 25km/h and paddling is not required.

Boost is only allowed while paddling below 25km/h for electric bicycles in the EU. period.

For reference (because you clearly didn't look it up yourself):

pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

Modbreak When it comes to the legality of throttles, I'm actually going to moderate on disinformation from now on. The EU regulation and priority of law in the EU when it comes to the internal market is super clear.

Unless people have correct legal sources for their statements they will be removed from now on.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

I am also not trying to tell you how to do rev eng, I am far away from that - i have a hope to learn something from you - i have totally no experience with reversing hardware or its software. I really do appreciate your work here and big thanx for that, its amazing for me what is happening here where i am reading new updates to proejct.

Finding these values is what is called reverse enginering.

As i remember for 'almost identical' comparison was used other firmwares whre 0x774 was discovered, but these one what i wrote here just above have identical same first blocks, identical middle, end and, even 0x774, different is only name and literally few bits.

I've compared a lot of firmwares and tried a lot of reverse enginering methods, you are assuming a lot. I've spend DAYS and DAYS on end working on these firmwares. I only posted about 5-10% of what I did in terms of research, because I only send the highlights.

Just because I said I checked firmware A and B, does not mean I did nothing more.

KyokushinPL commented 3 years ago

Ornias, you pointed the regulation but i am telling you the PL citizen may totally dont care about this regulation because important for him is only PL road law and their definition of bicycle. Art 2.47 PoRD and that is the very only story what is interesting the bike rider.

I am not telling BOOST is legal or not in EU. I am just describing how it is working and engine (m500) with Boost is allowed in EU - its 'as is'. I have not created the EU law or produced the m500 or developed boost ;)

If you have checked these firmwares - fine.

PrivatePuffin commented 3 years ago

Ornias, you pointed the regulation but i am telling you the PL citizen may totally dont care about this regulation because important for him is only PL road law and their definition of bicycle. Art 2.47 PoRD and that is the very only story what is interesting the bike rider.

Sorry, but you're wrong here. Polish law is not the only law that applies to polish citizens (or any citizens within the EU single market). I know it's very complicated, but it's not disputed by any legal scholar that EU market regulations have direct application within the EU single market.

I'm trying to keep it simple, as i'm not really into giving complete legal 101 courses here. I already added more if's and but's than I initially wanted and explained more in depth. But i'm NOT going to give a complete course on direct applicability of EU market law here.