[Request] Complete "Research" Overhaul / Replacement - it just is THAT bad as it is

[TaipionsSalemClient]

Ok, I'll try to be scientific about this and list ALL the issues and shortcomings of it, with proof, and also come up with suggestions and solutions.

But as it stands now, the old +20 system was better than what we have now, not even considering all the new bugs that came with it. (no, I am not saying we should revert everything...) Anyways, that's the plan here: 1 freds sum up of costs 2 list of problems with research 3 solutions / suggestions

#(1): Let's start with something fred summed up: It just costs way, WAY too much in total:

discord link to his post: https://discord.com/channels/294511987684147212/1211573998132002857/1224410274900213830

In sum: 55k stars AND about 2.000.000 resources... now getting these 2m resources with lootboxes for stars, you are looking at anything between 500k and 5m stars on top. This should make it clear just how broken it is.

#(2) But now, let's sum up the actual problems with "research":

• total cost is WAY too high: => as seen above, costs in the range of 10x to 100x too much to be reasonable

• high cost of research "per module" => need to focus on one module/weapon at a time: => KILLS build diversity => promotes using the same weapon(s) and modules on all ships in your fleet, which will be the "best" weapon, of course => this will encourage boring metas and kill experimenting

• risk of failure: =>easy to sink your entire wealth and progress into the wrong modules, or be screwed by updates that nerf something you invested everything in, as you can't just change your ships modules if you put all your resources into "researching" one thing => can brick and totally screw any player, not only new players

• ridiculous amounts of clicks needed: => hundreds of clicks per weapon/module to just do the upgrades => hundreds of thousands of clicks to buy the resources for stars

• single "research" upgrades are meaningless, you only see an effect after 10x, 20x ... upgrades: => this is not engaging, and will bore the average player more than it helps => (example) you click your favourite weapon from... say... lvl 70 dmg to lvl 71, you spend a lot and you gain near nothing (numbers are just too small to matter)

• blueprints: => getting the blueprints for some of the more popular weapons and modules in the quantities needed for research are borderline impossible on their own already (and I'm saying this as someone who has a full set of large +20 S1 drones for my harbour both in +range (pre negative energy build nerf) and -energy, as well as a full +20 of interceptors and like 50 or more HMLM3s in +20)

• missed chance of specialisation, or choice: => you upgrade every stat of a module/weapon, so you end up with ...say ...a gun with +damage AND - energy AND +range and then some... => this is inherently problematic and probably also the cause of some of the new bugs => this wrecks balance in several ways, as the current balance was not made for this => missed chance of giving players a choice, though that would require a deep and well thought-through upgrade system, and that's no easy task for sure

• resources are a mess!: => the distribution of resources for research is a mess => you will end up with being short on one, by a HUGE margin => this is further discouraging and annoying

#(3) Solutions / Suggestions:

1.) Reduce upgrades to 20 steps instead of 100 steps, but keep the power of max upgrades (so one step in "max 20" will be 5 steps in "max 100" and you get the same end result in both) => 5x less cost => 5x less clicks

2.) Fix the resource box buying with some QoL, just enable entering a number / use a slider, to buy all the boxes you want at once

3.) Simplify resources: => Either scrap all but one type, => or make research take all of them for each research instead of just one (read: "any", not "all"), => or add some conversion / trade at the research npc to get rid of the excess and instead get what is needed

4.) Further reduce cost of research => the 5x reduction mentioned above won't be enough, it should in total cost at least 10x less than it costs now, maybe a lot less even

5.) Remove problematic research upgrades: => remove +range and -energy upgrades from weapons, you have the mods on the modules already, no need to complicate things

6.) (optional) Add "long term upgrades", but for ships: => after reducing the upgrade costs to a reasonable level, add something players can grind to infinity without totally breaking the game => this upgrade type should be expensive and infinite => ideally, to add some diversity in terms of upgrades, and add some type of specialisation it should be for ships, not modules => small upgrades with ever increasing costs => first "long term upgrade"-level should cost around the total sum of a module research upgrade => each lvl costs +10% of the previous lvl (something between +1% and 10%, needs testing and balancing) => each lvl could add something like +1% hp or dmg or both to that ship only => could and should includes starbases => softcaps itself due to increasing cost

[IsmollCheeKen]

Here's the resource/credits/stars cost of all module upgrades, summed up in general referenced in the issue above. Credits to ChaosFred, the same person in the issue #79.

Just thought I would add it here since Taipions used the discord link instead of literally taking a screenshot to post (LOL).

[Inedilarion]

I will express my opinion on the above problems and proposed actions: Problems: 1) The cost of research is too expensive. Not very relevant due to the fact that the cost of TOTAL improvements has been calculated, and in a real game about 5 guns are used (10 counting the arena and explorations), 3 types of drones and 3 types of armor. 2) Having the most powerful weapon does not really depend on leveling up the weapon. And players will first of all strengthen their most powerful and most used weapons, so the problem is not very relevant 3) There really is a risk of investing in the wrong place and it’s really a problem 4) The problem with the number of clicks is relevant only for old players and only when switching to a new version. But it's relevant 5) The problem with the number of blueprints only matters for very rare or very new modules 6) A breakdown of the balance is more critical for such characteristics of the ship as energy production, its quantity, the mass of modules and their energy consumption. And then, not exactly the balance, but the design of the builds. The weapon is secondary here, often it will shoot exactly the same without improvements as with them (except for the damage, which was already increased by the old system). 7) The problem is not very relevant because now the most profitable way to extract resources is to disassemble modules (and this is inadequate), which allows you to select the desired resource for extraction. However, if the search in explorations were relevant, the problem would be significant Solutions (suggestions):

1. +20 instead of +100 - I fully support this, the effect of one improvement will be more noticeable, and the continuity of the old system will be preserved, and all improvements will have one limit, which is convenient. I'm not sure about the cost reduction. It would also be nice to have a button like “improve to maximum”
2. The opportunity to buy several boxes of resources will definitely not be superfluous
3. The ability to convert resources into each other looks like a good idea; they are currently being extracted very unevenly in explorations. However, fortunately, now this is not the main way to get them, so the problem is not very urgent.
4. I’ll add point 6 here, adding upgrades for ships. What's the point of removing one long-term upgrade to replace it with another long-term upgrade?
5. In my opinion, pumping modules is an even bigger “problem”. But the game has long had, for example, quality modules, and the same weapon can have a bonus to energy consumption or range. In general, selecting any specific upgrades for weapons and modules is stupid, because ALL upgrades and quality boosts except damage and armor are a problem in terms of matching builds
6. Here I will only focus on upgrading ships, because the offers are optional. In EH RPG it is possible to upgrade ships to level 200 by completing the task of capturing factions. So, why not do something similar for ships on the frontier? But individual for each ship, and is unlocked, for example, by SUCCESSFULLY completing explorations at difficulty (number of ship cells)x2 5 times in a row. So it will make sense to go there, and you will have to think about the builds, and the waves will need to go through in order to open up the opportunity to upgrade more powerful ships to level 200. Only with titans there will be some difficulties, but they can also be allowed to reach explorations of the required complexity

The solution to problem 3 was not indicated, but it is simple, give the opportunity to reset module upgrades with the return of all resources (for stars, I think)

Выскажу своё мнение по приведённым проблемам и предложенным действиям: Проблемы: 1) Слишком дорогая стоимость исследований. Не очень актуально ввиду того, что вычислена стоимость улучшений ВСЕГО, а в реальной игре используется штук 5 орудий (10 считая арену и исследования), 3 вида дронов и 3 вида брони. 2) Наличие самого сильного оружия не очень зависит от прокачки оружия. И игроки в первую очередь будут усиливать изначально самое мощное и самое используемое своё оружие, так что проблема не очень актуальна 3) Риск вложиться не туда действительно есть и действительно проблема 4) Проблема с количеством кликом актуальна только для старых игроков и только при переходе на новую версию. Но оно актуальна 5) Проблема с количеством чертежей имеет значение только для очень редких или очень новых модулей 6) Поломка баланса более критична для таких характеристик корабля как выработка энергии, её количество, масса модулей и их энергопотребление. И то, не совсем баланса, а именно конструкции билдов. Оружие здесь второстепенно, зачастую оно будет точно так же стрелять без улучшений как с ними (кроме урона, и так повышавшегося старой системой). 7) Проблема не очень актуальна потому что сейчас самым выгодным способом добычи ресурсов является разборка модулей (и это неадекватно), что позволяет выбрать нужный ресурс для добычи. Однако если бы поиск в исследованиях был релевантным, проблема оказалась бы значимой Решения (предложения):

1. +20 вместо +100 -- полностью поддерживаю, так будет и эффект одного улучшения заметней, и сохранится преемственность старой системы, и у всех улучшений будет один лимит, что удобно. По поводу уменьшения стоимости не уверен. Ещё было бы хорошо иметь кнопку вроде "улучшить до максимума"
2. Возможность купить несколько ящиков ресурсов точно не будет лишней
3. Возможность конвертировать ресурсы друг в друга выглядит хорошей идеей, они сейчас добываются очень неравномерно в исследованиях. Правда, к счастью, сейчас это не основной способ их добычи, так что проблема не очень актуальна.
4. Приплету здесь пункт 6, добавление прокачки кораблей. Какой смысл убирать один долговременный апгрейд чтобы заменить его другим долговременным апгрейдом?
5. На мой взгляд, прокачка модулей является даже большей "проблемой". Но в игре уже давно есть, например, качество модулей, и то же самое оружие может иметь бонус к энергопотреблению или к дальности. В общем, отбирать какие-то определённые апгрейды оружия и модулей глупо, потому что ВСЕ апгрейды и бонусы от качества кроме урона и брони являются проблемой с точки зрения совпадения сборок
6. Здесь я остановлюсь только на прокачке кораблей, потому что предложения опциональны. В ЕН РПГ есть возможность прокачать корабли до 200 уровня выполнив задание по захвату фракций. Так вот ,почему бы не сделать нечто похожее для кораблей во фронтире? Но для каждого корабля индивидуально, и разблокируемо, например, УСПЕШНЫМ прохождением исследований на сложности (количество клеток корабля)х2 5 раз подряд. Так и смысл заходить туда появится, и с билдами придётся подумать, и волны нужно будет проходить чтобы открыть возможность прокачивать до 200 уровня более мощные корабли. Только с титанами будут некоторые сложности, но может и их допускать до исследований нужной сложности

Не было указано решение проблемы 3, но оно простое, дать возможность сбрасывать апгрейды модуля с возвращением всех ресурсов (за звёзды, думаю)

[TaipionsSalemClient]

@Inedilarion "What's the point of removing one long-term upgrade to replace it with another long-term upgrade?"

Simple:

• Instead of countless upgrades (one upgrade instead of many stats) on countless modules and weapons, it's just a few (ships), of which you only use few (you can only use a few ships at the same time, you yourself can only use one) => simpler
• It is not mandatory because it is weaker, and the higher you get the less you will get in relation to the cost (getting +1% when you have 100% is 1% gain, getting +1% when you have 200% already is 0.5% gain)
• It is meant as a way to dump resources and still progress a little bit in a very long run, without breaking the game or the balance and requiring insane amounts of resources just to be able to compete

[ghost]

3. The ability to convert resources into each other looks like a good idea; they are currently being extracted very unevenly in explorations. However, fortunately, now this is not the main way to get them, so the problem is not very urgent.

i digress, all FTP players, which is most of the games players, are forced to do explorations, therefore it is the main way to get the materials, so the problem is very much urgent.

i say this as a FTP player: i am sick of farming for a couple of things that i am most likely not to get. (edit) also the "scientist mission shows up after you finish a lv 100+ explore" is completely flawed, as before scientist, you could have a +20 item at level 5-1 with enough grinding even as a FTP player. now you would be lucky to finish the scientist mission before lv 200, and according to some, you need the upgrades before then.

[SuplexCity25284]

I must agree that the costs are too high. I've been a long time player, off and on for a few years. More so of Frontier.

While it was nice to get all my stars back, and coin, the costs to upgrade, or just go to the engineer and create items from blueprints are too much. I went from 101k stars to like 19k in about a month.

The difficulty jump from just lvl 170 to 200 is astronomical, and the weapon and defense upgrades don't match that jump. I've upgraded most of my defense items a lot and I get pummeled, and now with the triple vet jormies mass spamming the parasites, it just enters you into a death spiral. They spam attack the station, blow it up, you have to pay to continue, and the parasites turn around and clamp back on, or the jormies Mas spam that upgraded antimatter torp, and boom, station gone again. Then pay again.

This new upgrade scheme has only served to weaken players.

It's so bad now that only back in lvl 199 I could do damage well enough, but go to just 202, and I can't even dent the trip vet jormies, but they can one shot everything I have.

Not to mention, the jormie battle to gain it, is near impossible now unless you been grinding for years like others, and gained it before the new upgrade. I've tried everything I can to beat it, and it's drones track to well, and that long range vampiric ray just ends you. It's nuts