Open Tree3324417 opened 3 months ago
magne00
commented
3 months ago I can see the first suggestion will hurt the Low-HP Resistance-based SBs more. And dealing with lots pf healing ships is no problem at all, just destroy them first. Also, fleets with healers are already sacrificing some offense power for defense, so it already kinda balances out.
Tree3324417
commented
3 months ago I think the problem with low HP resistance based starbase can be counteracted with taking average resistance into account while counting the 1.5% bonus too, which the resistance will not be healed but will make the base HP heal cap higher.
TaipionsSalemClient
commented
3 months ago artificial "extra rules" for balancing are obscure and unintuitive, anything that says "but in arena it works like this or is capped like that" is bad, full stop.
You are basically complaining that you can't cheese your way easymode through arena due to healing ships?! Seriously?!
The key solution here would be to fine-tune the arena rating system so that it actually means something, and you'll end up in a lower rating segment where your weaker fleet will meet equal opponents, and definitely not some arbitrary obscure extra rules to break everything so you can HAT/cloak cheese fleets that are way above your level.
Tree3324417
commented
3 months ago You are basically complaining that you can't cheese your way easymode through arena due to healing ships?! Seriously?!
Cheesing this is still no problem. For non-HAT builds however, having their damage undone almost instantly is.........not. what do you even mean 15 million damage should be undone in seconds? this basically mean if NOT heavy acid torpedo then you are not killing a base unless you completely overwhelm the enemy, which is often NOT the case. Your solutions given to this issue arent even helping if its endgame-against-endgame. Its NOT easymode, if the arena damage done is basically scrapped because your main ship is toast? I see no problem with QRT subships to TP enemy away or killing them extremely quickly (scarabs), and then heal ships dig in and undo whatever is done. you can NOT EMP every single enemy at once to counter, and the solution leads itself back to HAT abuse, yet again. Polyarnaya can, right now, counter even HAT abuse, just we have seen no one who abused it yet. Even further, HAT abuse can be countered if AI is actually more aggressive toward player ships. I am extremely against these kind of blatant blame to suggestions. HAT is a problem that can be countered by just making the AI better, and actually have little relations with 'me cheesing through the arena' (???, look at who still abuse HLC old iron balls in arena?). You dont need to point at ME to tell that something is not a good change, because you dont even know what to say and you are just against it. Arena rules is a common thing in games, I dont see why it cant apply here. Go on, if you ACTUALLY see a proper reason instead of a dumb bring-back-old-HAT and this-is-bad-because-YOU-abuse-it, say it.
Tree3324417
commented
3 months ago If you so desire that arena should be similar to base game, apply the heal% cap to normal PvE combat too. However right now the healing is quite necessary for the extremely difficult contents especially with red dwarfs, so i dont see a point.
TaipionsSalemClient
commented
3 months ago heal cap?!? seriously?!?!
Again, you all are complaining your weak fleets can't easymode cheese higher lvl fleets in arena! That's... no, just no, completely no to this issue...
TaipionsSalemClient
commented
3 months ago You are basically complaining that you can't cheese your way easymode through arena due to healing ships?! Seriously?!
Cheesing this is still no problem. For non-HAT builds however, having their damage undone almost instantly is.........not. what do you even mean 15 million damage should be undone in seconds? this basically mean if NOT heavy acid torpedo then you are not killing a base unless you completely overwhelm the enemy, which is often NOT the case. Your solutions given to this issue arent even helping if its endgame-against-endgame. Its NOT easymode, if the arena damage done is basically scrapped because your main ship is toast? I see no problem with QRT subships to TP enemy away or killing them extremely quickly (scarabs), and then heal ships dig in and undo whatever is done. you can NOT EMP every single enemy at once to counter, and the solution leads itself back to HAT abuse, yet again. Polyarnaya can, right now, counter even HAT abuse, just we have seen no one who abused it yet. Even further, HAT abuse can be countered if AI is actually more aggressive toward player ships. I am extremely against these kind of blatant blame to suggestions. HAT is a problem that can be countered by just making the AI better, and actually have little relations with 'me cheesing through the arena' (???, look at who still abuse HLC old iron balls in arena?). You dont need to point at ME to tell that something is not a good change, because you dont even know what to say and you are just against it. Arena rules is a common thing in games, I dont see why it cant apply here. Go on, if you ACTUALLY see a proper reason instead of a dumb bring-back-old-HAT and this-is-bad-because-YOU-abuse-it, say it.
You complain you get beaten by a stronger fleet, You complain you get out-maneuvered by a fleet that is smarter-built than yours? You're at an extreme advantage as you manually control your fleet while the other is AI controlled, yet you complain about a general slight advantage on the defensive side?
This is a personal skill issue on your side, and you should deal with that instead of having the game "fixed" so you can play it.
ghost
commented
3 months ago You complain you get beaten by a stronger fleet, You complain you get out-maneuvered by a fleet that is smarter-built than yours? You're at an extreme advantage as you manually control your fleet while the other
seems you need to remember there are new players who arent at your level, and you need to respect that. "skill issue" is trying to keep something heavily abused that new players dont have access to at all. skill issue is gatekeeping. wanna keep it? let new players have access to the weapon also. then cry when it gets nerfed because everyone and their cousin is using it, forcing a meta change.
Tree3324417
commented
3 months ago You complain you get beaten by a stronger fleet, You complain you get out-maneuvered by a fleet that is smarter-built than yours? You're at an extreme advantage as you manually control your fleet while the other is AI controlled, yet you complain about a general slight advantage on the defensive side?
This is a personal skill issue on your side, and you should deal with that instead of having the game "fixed" so you can play it.
Holy shit, my guy, tell me 'smarter built', I can autopilot handle every single fleet in current hall of fame including your bullshit, just except the top guy where we balance stall eachother up. STFU with your stupid accusations of being 'skill issue', and stop with the shitty attitude. Elitism dont help here, my sir.
The current problem is not that no one thought of it yet, but affablelegend decided to not do what i told him, which is doing a full brick starbase and heal fleet, which i am afraid is straight up nigh-impossible to beat in reasonable time if done properly (right now he only die to fragility. Trying to keep off the old meta does NOTHING for you, trying to attack other members only makes you look like an ASSHOLE. What the fuck do you have to gain from acting like that to constructive suggestions? What the fuck do you have to gain from gatekeeping newer players (of which im not EVEN one, shut the FUCK up with your blatant accusation PLEASE?)? What the fuck do you have to gain from blatant accusations to defend an invalid point instead of giving something actually reasonable of an explanation?
Excuse me for my aggressive reaction, but having this kind of response feel extremely offensive and not constructive.
TaipionsSalemClient
commented
3 months ago You complain you get beaten by a stronger fleet, You complain you get out-maneuvered by a fleet that is smarter-built than yours? You're at an extreme advantage as you manually control your fleet while the other
seems you need to remember there are new players who arent at your level, and you need to respect that. "skill issue" is trying to keep something heavily abused that new players dont have access to at all. skill issue is gatekeeping. wanna keep it? let new players have access to the weapon also. then cry when it gets nerfed because everyone and their cousin is using it, forcing a meta change.
I honestly don't know how the "balance" for the new scientist upgrades should be, but previously, you'd need to grind for months to get a fleet of good ships with +20 modules, having no +20 modules means 1/3 the hp and dmg, and you can't seriously suggest a "newbie" without that should be easily able to beat such a fleet in arena, do you?
There is (as I said, idk about now, but there was) no gate-keeping, it's all free, just a matter of grind in not too epic proportions to get all the upgrades you need.
Being able to win 99% off all fights in arena within 5 seconds with a 1 month old game, that was broken, that's definitely not something that should be.
TaipionsSalemClient
commented
3 months ago You complain you get beaten by a stronger fleet, You complain you get out-maneuvered by a fleet that is smarter-built than yours? You're at an extreme advantage as you manually control your fleet while the other is AI controlled, yet you complain about a general slight advantage on the defensive side?
This is a personal skill issue on your side, and you should deal with that instead of having the game "fixed" so you can play it.
Holy shit, my guy, tell me 'smarter built', I can autopilot handle every single fleet in current hall of fame including your bullshit, just except the top guy where we balance stall eachother up. STFU with your stupid accusations of being 'skill issue', and stop with the shitty attitude. Elitism dont help here, my sir.
The current problem is not that no one thought of it yet, but affablelegend decided to not do what i told him, which is doing a full brick starbase and heal fleet, which i am afraid is straight up nigh-impossible to beat in reasonable time if done properly (right now he only die to fragility. Trying to keep off the old meta does NOTHING for you, trying to attack other members only makes you look like an ASSHOLE. What the fuck do you have to gain from acting like that to constructive suggestions? What the fuck do you have to gain from gatekeeping newer players (of which im not EVEN one, shut the FUCK up with your blatant accusation PLEASE?)? What the fuck do you have to gain from blatant accusations to defend an invalid point instead of giving something actually reasonable of an explanation?
Excuse me for my aggressive reaction, but having this kind of response feel extremely offensive and not constructive.
Your post shows a lot about you, but very little about me, it does make you look like an "asshole", not me.
The difference between our posts here, yours and mine, is that you throw actual insults and rage in a whole wall of text without providing anything constructive.
Therefore I kindly ask you: Would you please describe the problem the way you perceive it in detail, and maybe suggest a solution?
I fail to see any issue here, and to me it looks like people are complaining that a "high end" fleet with "all +20" and a well made setup and builds is unbeatable, or takes too long to beat, if you don't have a comparable fleet. And I really can't see any issue with that, so please, enlighten me.
[edit:] I may add that your initial post in this thread does not make it clear what you want, why you want it, and how you want it done. Demanding an arbitrary nerf and cap of healing abilities is definitely not good, it might even do what you intend but it would not be the right solution and would cause more problems.
[edit2:] Same for your demand to make arena AI focus on the player ship, which would allow anyone to just cloak / kite the entire enemy fleet while your own marches through to the SB, that really sounds like asking for another way to cheese.
ghost
commented
3 months ago You complain you get beaten by a stronger fleet, You complain you get out-maneuvered by a fleet that is smarter-built than yours? You're at an extreme advantage as you manually control your fleet while the other
seems you need to remember there are new players who arent at your level, and you need to respect that. "skill issue" is trying to keep something heavily abused that new players dont have access to at all. skill issue is gatekeeping. wanna keep it? let new players have access to the weapon also. then cry when it gets nerfed because everyone and their cousin is using it, forcing a meta change.
I honestly don't know how the "balance" for the new scientist upgrades should be, but previously, you'd need to grind for months to get a fleet of good ships with +20 modules, having no +20 modules means 1/3 the hp and dmg, and you can't seriously suggest a "newbie" without that should be easily able to beat such a fleet in arena, do you?
There is (as I said, idk about now, but there was) no gate-keeping, it's all free, just a matter of grind in not too epic proportions to get all the upgrades you need.
Being able to win 99% off all fights in arena within 5 seconds with a 1 month old game, that was broken, that's definitely not something that should be.
you know what, let it be. keep it as it is. in fact, make the grind harder. remove the materials loot box from the store altogether, make it so newer players are left grinding their asses off just to try to be viable. i dont care anymore, and apparently neither do you. dont bother replying to me here, this will be my last message on this site. good day to you.
Tree3324417
commented
3 months ago The difference between our posts here, yours and mine, is that you throw actual insults and rage in a whole wall of text without providing anything constructive.
My sir, you literally threw to me that i have 'skill issue', have a 'fleet that dont match others in arena' and try to deny my suggestion. That by itself is incredibly 'constructive', yes? Dont blame your shitty attitude on me.
I fail to see any issue here, and to me it looks like people are complaining that a "high end" fleet with "all +20" and a well made setup and builds is unbeatable, or takes too long to beat, if you don't have a comparable fleet.
The thing is, it havent been done yet because NONE in the arena is so much of an ass to do it (Would you like a dose of the chaosfred cheat fleet, but on a legit player level?), but a polyarnaya can be built to stay against multiple successive barrages of a maxed Syberia with HAT spam, and if someone with enough healing to counter that actually want to do it, they would be near unbeatable. Thing is, no one have done that yet, part because of discussions on the discord to not do it.
If you feels as if it is fine, then go on. Let the arena balance play out for a while first. I will temporarily remove the arena healing suggestion for now, and let players screw around first (right now I too cant do much, because of the new bug with latest version)
These edits are the replies i appreciate much more. On that:
On the first issue, what i want is less of player being completely ignored and just go eat the enemy starbase. Almost no weapon nerfs can counter that, because 'the player knowing to focus on enemy base' is just broken
The second one, priority can exist. Not everything in the enemy fleet have to focus on taking the players down, and there could be additional priority against ships that are attacking the starbase itself. I will update the issue on that, but give your thought if possible.
Tree3324417
commented
3 months ago I will also remove the Asteroid part, as it is resolved in latest beta after other issues are done.
TaipionsSalemClient
commented
3 months ago The difference between our posts here, yours and mine, is that you throw actual insults and rage in a whole wall of text without providing anything constructive.
My sir, you literally threw to me that i have 'skill issue', have a 'fleet that dont match others in arena' and try to deny my suggestion. That by itself is incredibly 'constructive', yes? Dont blame your shitty attitude on me.
I fail to see any issue here, and to me it looks like people are complaining that a "high end" fleet with "all +20" and a well made setup and builds is unbeatable, or takes too long to beat, if you don't have a comparable fleet.
The thing is, it havent been done yet because NONE in the arena is so much of an ass to do it (Would you like a dose of the chaosfred cheat fleet, but on a legit player level?), but a polyarnaya can be built to stay against multiple successive barrages of a maxed Syberia with HAT spam, and if someone with enough healing to counter that actually want to do it, they would be near unbeatable. Thing is, no one have done that yet, part because of discussions on the discord to not do it.
If you feels as if it is fine, then go on. Let the arena balance play out for a while first. I will temporarily remove the arena healing suggestion for now, and let players screw around first (right now I too cant do much, because of the new bug with latest version)
These edits are the replies i appreciate much more. On that:
On the first issue, what i want is less of player being completely ignored and just go eat the enemy starbase. Almost no weapon nerfs can counter that, because 'the player knowing to focus on enemy base' is just broken
The second one, priority can exist. Not everything in the enemy fleet have to focus on taking the players down, and there could be additional priority against ships that are attacking the starbase itself. I will update the issue on that, but give your thought if possible.
You have to be specific here, and make the distinctions where they are necessary.
1.) If you (any player) is unable to beat a fleet in arena that is considerably stronger (by progression, upgrades and so on), then that is not an issue that needs fixing, you (any player) can just grind more and get to that level yourself.
2.) If you, having a maxed out fleet, are unable to beat a maxed out fleet with healing focus on their SB, then you need to make the right distinctions and ask the right questions:
You need to analyse it and figure out the point that breaks the game balance, or figure out that it actually does not.
In the current Arena mode of Event Horizon - Frontier, repair ray-focused ships can easily undo 90% damage done to a 180-240k health point polyarnaya zvezda in seconds, just to show how absurdly overpowered and potentially unfair these ships can prove in Arena; However, this is the only possible AI counter to heavy acid torpedo bombing runs as in the current versions. Also, the center asteroid is a badly done counter to arena map sniping, which dont alway work and dont prevent heavy acid torpedo abuse.
I propose a wide array of solutions that should work in sync with eachother to make arena better and possibly resolving the current complaints storm about arena abuse: