[REQUEST] Remove Doppelgänger, please

[TaipionsSalemClient]

This is halving build diversity by double-tapping into the most famous ships, which is already clearly and simply a bad thing.

Plus it adds annoyance and potential performance problems by doubling smaller ships basically for free.

There is no good reason to have this perk, and no way to properly balance it in the best interests of the game.

[PavelZinchenko]

I agree that this perk can be problematic, but it's also fun and offers more gameplay options. I'll remove it if this issue gets at least 5 👍

[vlad-ultramarine]

Я уже писал что этому перку нужена балансировка. Конкретно предлагал уменьшить статы второго корабля на 25%, как у клонов и сделать не доступным для линкоров и титанов, поскольку это не было сделано это привело к мете: просто сделай второго самого сильного титана(обычно это йормунганд) и/или линкоры. Я не против расширения флота, но не нужно сразу убирать перк без должной балансировки

[Estrect]

I'd suggest the following, do not fully remove it but make it unobtainable for caps and have pilots with it become rarer the higher the ship class, perhaps to the point where finding a battleship captain is like winning the lottery. This would make smaller, weaker ships more viable.

[Seneriel]

Yeah I support Estrect :^|

[TaipionsSalemClient]

I'd suggest the following, do not fully remove it but make it unobtainable for caps and have pilots with it become rarer the higher the ship class, perhaps to the point where finding a battleship captain is like winning the lottery. This would make smaller, weaker ships more viable.

I reject, specifically the "rare" part, because "rare" will only mean you have to mindlessly grind and click "refresh" over and over again until you get it.

I still say it's bad, even if it would be excluded for battleships and capitals, it's basically giving you TWICE the hp AND damage for free, this is not balanced no matter how you put it. And before you make a clone which will just (if overused, and it will be overused) break performance, just give +100% hp and damage instead, there, fixed.

Oh you say +100% both is too high? well guess what a 100% clone for free is then...

[edit:] @PavelZinchenko you can not rely on the vote of your players to nerf or remove something that is clearly broken, there will always be a lot of players who just want it and can't let go, even though they know it's bad.

[Bezbasheniy]

Отвецтвенно заявляю: перк нужно снести! В дальнейшем он может сыграть с вами злую шутку.

[Thirteen0130]

Если вы не умеете играть, то удаление перка здесь ничем не поможет

[Seneriel]

Если вы не умеете играть, то удаление перка здесь ничем не поможет

Напротив, люди этот перк считают дисбалансным

[Bezbasheniy]

Если вы не умеете играть, удалить перку ​​здесь ничто не поможет.

Напротив, люди этот перк считают дисбалансным

Именно так. И никак иначе. У меня к примеру два червя и две сибири заряженные стоят и мне то хорошо. А как быть тем кто еще и до двухсотого не дошел, и на арене попросту заработать не сможет так как попросту будет вечно проигрывать. Есть масса примеров почему стоит снести этот перк, я думаю люди не глупые и сами все поймут.

[Estrect]

because "rare" will only mean you have to mindlessly grind and click "refresh" over and over again until you get it.

that's exactly why a thing is made rare to begin with, what do you think legendary items are rare in other games, you did not complain about the fact its almost the same with modules, your argument is weak.

[edit:] @PavelZinchenko you can not rely on the vote of your players to nerf or remove something that is clearly broken, there will always be a lot of players who just want it and can't let go, even though they know it's bad.

no offense but you are acting selfishly, deciding for the rest of the playerbase while not even being someone who knows what they want.

Lesser shipclasses are cast aside, the cap ship ban would fix most of the current complains, though extending it to BB considering some of the broken top ends would probably get rid of all of them. There are so many ways to balance this perk.

It just feels like another clone module controversy, it just needs to be nerfed properly and then the complaints will die and people move on.

I am just against the removal of a feature without even trying to balance properly, because some random players had a bad day in arena. If it is balanced and people still get destroyed, that's another case but this just feels emotionally fueled and on impulse.

[Thirteen0130]

Я просто против удаления функции, даже не попытавшись должным образом сбалансировать ее, потому что у некоторых случайных игроков был плохой день на арене. Если все сбалансировано, а людей по-прежнему уничтожают, это другой случай, но это просто эмоционально подпитывается импульсом.

Полностью согласен с Вами. В игре много было имбалансных вещей, но немного изменений и они перестали таковыми быть. Просто нужно немного сбалансировать

[Snowgods]

Personally, I tested it out on a couple of strong capital ships, and only got a slight increase in kill effectiveness, not the near double that would make it cost effective. I currently only use it on a spike Mk2 (along with provocator) , as it still only costs 1, and doubles the effectiveness of it's annoyance,

[TaipionsSalemClient]

because "rare" will only mean you have to mindlessly grind and click "refresh" over and over again until you get it.

that's exactly why a thing is made rare to begin with, what do you think legendary items are rare in other games, you did not complain about the fact its almost the same with modules, your argument is weak.

[edit:] @PavelZinchenko you can not rely on the vote of your players to nerf or remove something that is clearly broken, there will always be a lot of players who just want it and can't let go, even though they know it's bad.

no offense but you are acting selfishly, deciding for the rest of the playerbase while not even being someone who knows what they want.

Lesser shipclasses are cast aside, the cap ship ban would fix most of the current complains, though extending it to BB considering some of the broken top ends would probably get rid of all of them. There are so many ways to balance this perk.

It just feels like another clone module controversy, it just needs to be nerfed properly and then the complaints will die and people move on.

I am just against the removal of a feature without even trying to balance properly, because some random players had a bad day in arena. If it is balanced and people still get destroyed, that's another case but this just feels emotionally fueled and on impulse.

1: Insulting others only shows you lack valid arguments, and lack the maturity to talk in a constructive way, it makes you look bad, not me or my points

2: You seriously do not understand what "rare" means in EHF, it means more grind of the worst, mindless and not-fun repeated clicking the refresh button until you get what you want, no skill involved, no fun either, games are meant to be fun, something being hard can be fun too, but this is neither, it's just pure annoyance, literally no one wants this, literally no one enjoys this

3: Doppelgänger reduces ship diversity, this alone is a clear reason to not have it

4: can be used / help with creating fleets that simply lagg you to death in arena, this is a technical issue but it still is a valid reason not to have this perk/ability at all

5: People will always want "OP stuff" without any regards for the game, for balance or anything, asking people there will always be some that just want it, if you asked people to give them an I-win-button weapon that instant-kills everything, a lot would want it, use it for a bit and then get bored off the game and leave everyone who did not want it with a broken game, that's how these things work, unless you have a capable dev(-team) with a clear vision of how things should work out

[PavelZinchenko]

It's now limited to small ships only. It might not be useful in the arena, but could be beneficial in early PvE missions, if players are lucky enough to find it during exploration

[Estrect]

It's now limited to small ships only. It might not be useful in the arena, but could be beneficial in early PvE missions, if players are lucky enough to find it during exploration

I see, its smart to limit it to exploration. Could you please elaborate what you mean with small ships?

[HackON777]

I spent about 1500 to get covid. I am already silent for the time spent.

[vlad-ultramarine]

what, there's no more doppelganger for capitals and battleships

[Asmageddon]

I agree that this perk can be problematic, but it's also fun and offers more gameplay options. I'll remove it if this issue gets at least 5 👍

Instead of removing, what if you just nerf it? Say, give it -30% attack and defense, so the total stats of cloned ships are 140% of the original instead of 200%? Or even simpler, make it cost an additional command point.

[TaipionsSalemClient]

I agree that this perk can be problematic, but it's also fun and offers more gameplay options. I'll remove it if this issue gets at least 5 👍

Instead of removing, what if you just nerf it? Say, give it -30% attack and defense, so the total stats of cloned ships are 140% of the original instead of 200%? Or even simpler, make it cost an additional command point.

clear no, weakening the "clones" from doppelgänger does not fix the actual problem of copying ships, in it's current state it is probably not too bad with being best for friggs, good for destroyers and questionably for cruisers,

but the problem is not only that it's a clear, uncontested "best by far" for friggs, it also doubles ship count for them, which can be problematic in itself.

iirc "extra credits" has a nice episode about this... balancing means, that there should not be a skill, weapon or item or anything, that is so much better that there actually is no choice, if all players (read: at least 95% of all successful players) make the same choice, then that choice should either be removed as a choice and added to the game by default (as was done with rear admiral perk), or nerfed/rebalanced

[edit]: sorry I don't have a graceful solution for this, I guess best would be to re-think this perk entirely and then replace it with that new idea

[Asmageddon]

I'd usually agree with you, but unfortunately, right now, pilots just come down to minmaxing ship stats anyway. Unless you rework them and their perks altogether, they will inevitably follow the "single best build"(or two, since you might want some ships to be tanky instead of strong) paradigm anyway.

Nothing you said is wrong per se, but aside from being too strong, the perk is still much more interesting than simple attack/defense stat buffs. And the same issues apply to the specialist perks.

If anything, their rarity at least makes collecting pilots with it rewarding.

[TaipionsSalemClient]

I'd usually agree with you, but unfortunately, right now, pilots just come down to minmaxing ship stats anyway. Unless you rework them and their perks altogether, they will inevitably follow the "single best build"(or two, since you might want some ships to be tanky instead of strong) paradigm anyway.

Nothing you said is wrong per se, but aside from being too strong, the perk is still much more interesting than simple attack/defense stat buffs. And the same issues apply to the specialist perks.

If anything, their rarity at least makes collecting pilots with it rewarding.

rarity is a mood argument, having to sit there clicking on refresh for hours and spending thousands of stars is not fun for anyone

you are right on the specialist though, that should be removed and added as base bonus, which would also improve ship variety as a pilot could just use any ship of that class instead of being limited to one

in recent game history, the best way to balance such things is (again, there's a good episode of "extra credits" about this!) called "perfect imbalance", which basically just boils down to rock/paper/shotgun or so, you need a bunch of options that are, each for themselves, powerful, but work like rock/paper/scissor against each other, yes, that's a difficult point to achieve at the lvl of pilot perks, but it may just may be possible

the following isn't a good example really to be implemented, but should just serve as a general mechanic example: a pilot perk that gives the pilot added damage against a certain ship type, whereas this ship type can be any, and the bonus can be serious as it's pretty easy to counter, like +200% dmg or so, so if the meta shifts to frigate spam, that will only last until people start employing anti-frigate pilots

the bad thing about this would be that you'd need to get new pilots every time the meta shifts, and that you'd basically need dozens of pilots in stock to be able to counter any shift in the meta without spending days to acquire new pilots... as I said just a mechanic example, not a practical one

you could do that as well with tying it to a more simple mechanic than "anti-ship-class" ... like... 3 mutually exclusive perks where one makes immune to all AoE effects and one that makes immune to all non-AoE-effects, and the 3rd one gives immunity to emp, slow and teleport effects, which would then again enable shifts in meta, albeit with the same problem of having to find new pilots for each shift

so generally speaking, the pilot perks are the wrong place to apply this, instead pilots are something that's rather not changed much and given the not-fun headache of acquiring them, that's a good thing

which brings us back to the actual topic: what to do with the doppelgänger perk? as I said in the first post, there is no graceful solution to balance it, but could it be reworked in some way? any ideas?

[Asmageddon]

Again, everything you say is solid game design theory, but that's just not what the game looks right now, you'd really have to rebalance multiple systems in order to enable real RPS-type dynamics, and even fixing captain perks would require reworking their role completely, away from consisting of simply attack/defense buffs.

Like having them as "traits" that tweak how the AI behaves, or each perk having drawbacks beyond just opportunity cost of not using something else.

One way I could see doppelganger being nerfed a little would be if the two ships were linked together, e.g. suffering major penalties if separated, with the other ship dying or becoming disabled if one is killed. Combine it with 25% attack/defense/speed debuff, and you've got tradeoffs aplenty.