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What is the Latin text in Book 3 of Aristole Economics (tlg0086.tlg029.perseus-grc1) #49

Open balmas opened 10 years ago

balmas commented 10 years ago

Book 3 of tlg0086.tlg029.perseus-grc1, Aristotle Economics based on the Loeb edition, is in Latin and appears to have a different citation scheme than the rest (book/chapter/section as well as rose pages). Is this a different work?

lcerrato commented 10 years ago

I would say (at some point) it has to be classified as Pseudo-Aristotle, but it's probably a question for Aristotle scholars or the wider classics community. There is a dubious transmission history of the text. (Including the first 2 books). We can be certain Aristotle didn't write it in Latin, but beyond that the tradition seems to be to ascribe this whole work to Aristotle, even the third book.

AlisonBabeu commented 10 years ago

In terms of Latin works of Aristotle, I had cataloged one Latin work of a Pseudo-Aristotle and created a Stoa identifier for it. We could create a catalog record for Book 3 at some point if citation for the Bodin project requires it.

balmas commented 10 years ago

I don't know if we need the Book 3 for Bodin, but I need to figure out what to do with it, because for the moment I took it out of tlg0086.tlg029.perseus-grc1 so that I could address the needs identified in #48 . If we think this is that work you catalogues with a Stoa identifier, I'd be very happy to move it to a new file in GitHub named per that id.

AlisonBabeu commented 10 years ago

The Stoa identifier I created for Pseudo-Aristotle was stoa0033a, but it was for a work called Secreti Secretorum ( http://catalog.perseus.org/catalog/Astoa0033aPseud).

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

I don't know if we need the Book 3 for Bodin, but I need to figure out what to do with it, because for the moment I took it out of tlg0086.tlg029.perseus-grc1 so that I could address the needs identified in

48 https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/48 . If we think this

is that work you catalogues with a Stoa identifier, I'd be very happy to move it to a new file in GitHub named per that id.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34652587 .

balmas commented 10 years ago

hmm. that sounds like a different work then?

lcerrato commented 10 years ago

This would be a good question for Mark Schiefsky, perhaps? I would not want to deviate from the custom (although if the custom is misleading....)

I just looked at the collection and we have absolutely no cross references to Econ. book 3, BTW.

balmas commented 10 years ago

Ok, I will email Mark. Good idea.

AlisonBabeu commented 10 years ago

Yes it was!

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

hmm. that sounds like a different work then?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34655649 .

AlisonBabeu commented 10 years ago

But we could use the same top level Stoa that I created as an identifier for the Latin works of Pseudo-Aristotle.

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Alison Babeu alisonbabeu@gmail.comwrote:

Yes it was!

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

hmm. that sounds like a different work then?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34655649 .

balmas commented 10 years ago

Mark wasn't sure about the tradition of this work. I checked with Tarik Wareh, here's what he had to say: "The history of the 3 books is quite various and complicated - none is by Aristotle, and editions have differed about whether to present them together, or just the two that survive in Greek (for example, the Oxford translation gives just Books 1-2, perhaps Barnes's revision added Book 3). Anyway, since not in the Bekker edn. of the Greek works, no Bekker numbers generally used--I see Perseus has inserted line numbers, but the chapters are so short that really they are sufficient. Theoretically, I'd say the three books do belong together as a collection. William of Moebeke in the 13th c. was looking at Books 1 & 3 in Greek together when making his influential Latin translation. From the point of view of the world of pseudo-Aristotelian material, (the Greek original of) Book 3 has as much right & reason to be in the mix as the other books. So I'd say the most proper route is to say there are three numbered books of pseudo-Aristotelian Oeconomica (this is the most widespread title, though some have preferred Oeconomicus) that belong together as a collection (whose contents must be traced to multiple origins)."

This actually presents some interesting challenges for CTS...

lcerrato commented 10 years ago

So our Pseudo-Aristotle was the right direction. But we have this Latin work in "perseus-grc."

The numbering here is odd. The Loeb has chapters (1-4) and line numbers, but the Loeb line numbers are related to the Rose pages whereas the Perseus line numbers seem to be chapter level. We don't seem to display the Rose pages, but if we did, those would be the wrong line numbers.

Also, the Latin got changed to Unicode Greek, which we may want to note.

balmas commented 10 years ago

Let me try to sum up the problem and propose a way forward.

  1. We have the text identified as a work of Aristotle rather than Pseudo-Aristotle
  2. Book 3 should probably be expressed as a translation rather than an edition
  3. The line numbers in Book 3 are wrong

I'm inclined to do the following:

  1. enter a catalog issue requesting a new work record for Oeconomica under textgroup urn:cts:latinLit:stoa0033a.
  2. enter a catalog issue requesting a new translation record for Oeconomica
  3. enter a catalog issue requesting a new edition record for Oeconomica
  4. enter a catalog issue requesting that urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 be retired and redirected to the new work identifier
  5. move the TEI XML for Books 1 and 2 to a file named per the new edition work identifier
  6. move the TEI XML for Book 3 to a file named per the new translation work identifier
  7. enter a separate canonical issue requesting that the line number milestones in the Book 3 translation XML be corrected

Does that seem reasonable?

AlisonBabeu commented 10 years ago

There is only one part of this that I"m not quite sure about in terms of the catalog and URN solution- Step 4. Since the first two books of the Oeconomica are cataloged in the TLG (0086) as being a work of Aristotle or the Corpus Aristotelicum (this includes pseudo works in Greek I believe) , why would we retire the urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 exactly? Wouldn't we just remove the Latin text of Book 3 and put that in a new file andcatalog it using the new stoa0033a identifier. I created that as an identifier for the Latin works of pseudo-Aristotle not the Greek ideally. Or have I misread the solution?

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

Let me try to sum up the problem and propose a way forward.

  1. We have the text identified as a work of Aristotle rather than Pseudo-Aristotle
  2. Book 3 should probably be expressed as a translation rather than an edition
  3. The line numbers in Book 3 are wrong

I'm inclined to do the following:

  1. enter a catalog issue requesting a new work record for Oeconomica under textgroup urn:cts:latinLit:stoa0033a.
  2. enter a catalog issue requesting a new translation record for Oeconomica
  3. enter a catalog issue requesting a new edition record for Oeconomica
  4. enter a catalog issue requesting that urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 be retired and redirected to the new work identifier
  5. move the TEI XML for Books 1 and 2 to a file named per the new edition work identifier
  6. move the TEI XML for Book 3 to a file named per the new translation work identifier
  7. enter a separate canonical issue requesting that the line number milestones in the Book 3 translation XML be corrected

Does that seem reasonable?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34788526 .

balmas commented 10 years ago

I think you are right - I wasn't sure on that point.

But one thing this exposes is that we don't have a clear way to identify the three books as part of a "collection", as Tarik put it.

On 02/11/2014 01:44 PM, AlisonBabeu wrote:

There is only one part of this that I"m not quite sure about in terms of the catalog and URN solution- Step 4. Since the first two books of the Oeconomica are cataloged in the TLG (0086) as being a work of Aristotle or the Corpus Aristotelicum (this includes pseudo works in Greek I believe) , why would we retire the urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 exactly? Wouldn't we just remove the Latin text of Book 3 and put that in a new file andcatalog it using the new stoa0033a identifier. I created that as an identifier for the Latin works of pseudo-Aristotle not the Greek ideally. Or have I misread the solution?

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

Let me try to sum up the problem and propose a way forward.

  1. We have the text identified as a work of Aristotle rather than Pseudo-Aristotle
  2. Book 3 should probably be expressed as a translation rather than an edition
  3. The line numbers in Book 3 are wrong

I'm inclined to do the following:

  1. enter a catalog issue requesting a new work record for Oeconomica under textgroup urn:cts:latinLit:stoa0033a.
  2. enter a catalog issue requesting a new translation record for Oeconomica
  3. enter a catalog issue requesting a new edition record for Oeconomica
  4. enter a catalog issue requesting that urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 be retired and redirected to the new work identifier
  5. move the TEI XML for Books 1 and 2 to a file named per the new edition work identifier
  6. move the TEI XML for Book 3 to a file named per the new translation work identifier
  7. enter a separate canonical issue requesting that the line number milestones in the Book 3 translation XML be corrected

Does that seem reasonable?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34788526 .

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34789870.

AlisonBabeu commented 10 years ago

You are right we don't have a good way to express it as a collection alas. In some ways the authority records for authors perhaps do it best by including all of the relevant textgroup identifiers.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 1:47 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

I think you are right - I wasn't sure on that point.

But one thing this exposes is that we don't have a clear way to identify the three books as part of a "collection", as Tarik put it.

On 02/11/2014 01:44 PM, AlisonBabeu wrote:

There is only one part of this that I"m not quite sure about in terms of the catalog and URN solution- Step 4. Since the first two books of the Oeconomica are cataloged in the TLG (0086) as being a work of Aristotle or the Corpus Aristotelicum (this includes pseudo works in Greek I believe) , why would we retire the urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 exactly? Wouldn't we just remove the Latin text of Book 3 and put that in a new file andcatalog it using the new stoa0033a identifier. I created that as an identifier for the Latin works of pseudo-Aristotle not the Greek ideally. Or have I misread the solution?

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

Let me try to sum up the problem and propose a way forward.

  1. We have the text identified as a work of Aristotle rather than Pseudo-Aristotle
  2. Book 3 should probably be expressed as a translation rather than an edition
  3. The line numbers in Book 3 are wrong

I'm inclined to do the following:

  1. enter a catalog issue requesting a new work record for Oeconomica

under textgroup urn:cts:latinLit:stoa0033a.

  1. enter a catalog issue requesting a new translation record for Oeconomica
  2. enter a catalog issue requesting a new edition record for Oeconomica
  3. enter a catalog issue requesting that

urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 be retired and redirected to the new work identifier

  1. move the TEI XML for Books 1 and 2 to a file named per the new edition work identifier
  2. move the TEI XML for Book 3 to a file named per the new translation work identifier
  3. enter a separate canonical issue requesting that the line number

milestones in the Book 3 translation XML be corrected

Does that seem reasonable?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub< https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34788526>

.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub <https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34789870 .

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34790185 .

balmas commented 10 years ago

Ok, well maybe at least we should enter a separate catalog issue for that point.

Shall I proceed as agreed then?

On 02/11/2014 01:49 PM, AlisonBabeu wrote:

You are right we don't have a good way to express it as a collection alas. In some ways the authority records for authors perhaps do it best by including all of the relevant textgroup identifiers.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 1:47 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

I think you are right - I wasn't sure on that point.

But one thing this exposes is that we don't have a clear way to identify the three books as part of a "collection", as Tarik put it.

On 02/11/2014 01:44 PM, AlisonBabeu wrote:

There is only one part of this that I"m not quite sure about in terms of the catalog and URN solution- Step 4. Since the first two books of the Oeconomica are cataloged in the TLG (0086) as being a work of Aristotle or the Corpus Aristotelicum (this includes pseudo works in Greek I believe) , why would we retire the urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 exactly? Wouldn't we just remove the Latin text of Book 3 and put that in a new file andcatalog it using the new stoa0033a identifier. I created that as an identifier for the Latin works of pseudo-Aristotle not the Greek ideally. Or have I misread the solution?

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

Let me try to sum up the problem and propose a way forward.

  1. We have the text identified as a work of Aristotle rather than Pseudo-Aristotle
  2. Book 3 should probably be expressed as a translation rather than an edition
  3. The line numbers in Book 3 are wrong

I'm inclined to do the following:

  1. enter a catalog issue requesting a new work record for Oeconomica

under textgroup urn:cts:latinLit:stoa0033a.

  1. enter a catalog issue requesting a new translation record for Oeconomica
  2. enter a catalog issue requesting a new edition record for Oeconomica
  3. enter a catalog issue requesting that

urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 be retired and redirected to the new work identifier

  1. move the TEI XML for Books 1 and 2 to a file named per the new edition work identifier
  2. move the TEI XML for Book 3 to a file named per the new translation work identifier
  3. enter a separate canonical issue requesting that the line number

milestones in the Book 3 translation XML be corrected

Does that seem reasonable?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub< https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34788526>

.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub

<https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34789870 .

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34790185 .

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34790434.

AlisonBabeu commented 10 years ago

I think so at this point. Thanks for thinking through the steps and articulating it so clearly.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

Ok, well maybe at least we should enter a separate catalog issue for that point.

Shall I proceed as agreed then?

On 02/11/2014 01:49 PM, AlisonBabeu wrote:

You are right we don't have a good way to express it as a collection alas. In some ways the authority records for authors perhaps do it best by including all of the relevant textgroup identifiers.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 1:47 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

I think you are right - I wasn't sure on that point.

But one thing this exposes is that we don't have a clear way to identify the three books as part of a "collection", as Tarik put it.

On 02/11/2014 01:44 PM, AlisonBabeu wrote:

There is only one part of this that I"m not quite sure about in terms of the catalog and URN solution- Step 4. Since the first two books of the Oeconomica are cataloged in the TLG (0086) as being a work of Aristotle or the Corpus Aristotelicum (this includes pseudo works in Greek I believe) , why would we retire the urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 exactly? Wouldn't we just remove the Latin text of Book 3 and put that in a new file andcatalog it using the new stoa0033a identifier. I created that as an identifier for the Latin works of pseudo-Aristotle not the Greek ideally. Or have I misread the solution?

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Bridget Almas notifications@github.comwrote:

Let me try to sum up the problem and propose a way forward.

  1. We have the text identified as a work of Aristotle rather than Pseudo-Aristotle
  2. Book 3 should probably be expressed as a translation rather than an edition
  3. The line numbers in Book 3 are wrong

I'm inclined to do the following:

  1. enter a catalog issue requesting a new work record for Oeconomica

under textgroup urn:cts:latinLit:stoa0033a.

  1. enter a catalog issue requesting a new translation record for Oeconomica
  2. enter a catalog issue requesting a new edition record for Oeconomica
  3. enter a catalog issue requesting that

urn:cts:tlg0086.tlg0029.perseus-grc1 be retired and redirected to the new work identifier

  1. move the TEI XML for Books 1 and 2 to a file named per the new edition work identifier
  2. move the TEI XML for Book 3 to a file named per the new translation work identifier
  3. enter a separate canonical issue requesting that the line number

milestones in the Book 3 translation XML be corrected

Does that seem reasonable?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub< https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34788526

.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub

<https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34789870 .

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub< https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34790185>

.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub <https://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34790434 .

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/PerseusDL/canonical/issues/49#issuecomment-34790655 .

lcerrato commented 10 years ago

Wow. This is a good case study in the catalog/cts challenges for classical works.