size rules ?

[terefang]

Size	Examples
Tiny	Imp, sprite
Small	Giant rat, goblin
Medium	Orc, werewolf
Large	Hippogriff, ogre
Huge	Fire giant, treant
Gargantuan	Kraken, purple worm

[PeterRudin-Burgess]

I would like to build these into the creature stats. So tiny creatures have less hits and smaller OBs but more DB. The bigger the creature the bigger more hits, bigger OB. The intention is that there is no additional math at the gaming table.

[terefang]

i am which you.

what about building actual creatures ?

maybe like this table (adapted from ogl):

Size	DB	OB	Hits
Fine	+40	–40	x0.25
Diminutive	+20	–20	x0.33
Tiny	+10	–10	x0.5
Small	+5	–5	x0.7
Medium	+0	+0	x1
Large	–5	+5	x1.5
Huge	–10	+10	x2
Gargantuan	–20	+20	x3
Colossal	–40	+40	x4

[terefang]

i have generated a test tables combining creature types with sizes:

Aberration Size	LE	OB	DB	Hits
Fine	5	5	51	7
Diminutive	5	25	31	9
Tiny	5	35	21	14
Small	5	40	16	19
Medium	5	45	11	28
Large	5	50	6	42
Huge	5	55	1	56
Gargantuan	5	65	-9	84
Colossal	5	85	-29	112
Titanic	5	125	-69	224

[PeterRudin-Burgess]

Monster Stats were taken from White Star and they took them from Swords & Wizardry.

It looks to me like there are three archetypes being employed. A generic beasty at Medium size has an OB of 45 and 28 hits A Magical archetype has 0 OB and 42 Hits A Combat archetype has 73 OB and 42 hits

To my eyes that suggests that: The Combat archetype gets +4 ranks in OB but these are preferred skills so gain +2/rank. They also get +2 ranks in Physique but also preferred so +2 per rank.

I think the magical archetype is spending the DPs from combat skills on magic.

I like your size progression.

[terefang]

more details:

Dragon Size	LE	OBb	OBm	OBs	OBt	DB	Hits
Fine	11	98.0	1.0	-40.0	58	64	39
Diminutive	11	98.0	1.0	-20.0	78	44	51
Tiny	11	98.0	1.0	-10.0	88	34	78
Small	11	98.0	1.0	-5.0	93	29	109
Medium	11	98.0	1.0	0.0	98	24	156
Large	11	98.0	1.0	5.0	103	19	234
Huge	11	98.0	1.0	10.0	108	14	312
Gargantuan	11	98.0	1.0	20.0	118	4	468
Colossal	11	98.0	1.0	40.0	138	-16	624
Titanic	11	98.0	1.0	80.0	178	-56	1248

i use a precalculated skill table (with 4+3r/L, 3+2r/L, 2+1r/L, 1+0.5r/L, 0.25r/L, 0.125r/L, 0r/L) ana flat +1/L bonus. S#6 for DB, hits are more complicated

LE	S#1	S#2	S#3	S#4	S#5	S#6	S#7	S#8
0	+20	+15	+10	+5	+0	+0	+0	+0
1	+36	+26	+18	+11	+3	+2	+1	+1
2	+52	+37	+27	+17	+7	+4	+3	+2
3	+59	+48	+35	+23	+10	+6	+4	+3
4	+66	+56	+44	+29	+14	+9	+6	+4
5	+73	+61	+52	+35	+17	+11	+8	+5
6	+78	+66	+58	+41	+21	+13	+9	+6
7	+82	+71	+62	+47	+24	+15	+11	+7
8	+86	+76	+66	+53	+28	+18	+13	+8
9	+90	+80	+70	+59	+31	+20	+14	+9
10	+94	+83	+74	+62	+35	+22	+16	+10
11	+98	+86	+78	+65	+38	+24	+17	+11
13	+106	+92	+84	+71	+45	+29	+21	+13
15	+114	+98	+89	+77	+52	+33	+24	+15
20	+134	+113	+102	+91	+70	+45	+32	+20
30	+174	+143	+127	+111	+90	+67	+48	+30
35	+194	+158	+139	+121	+100	+78	+56	+35
40	+214	+173	+152	+131	+110	+90	+65	+40
45	+234	+188	+164	+141	+117	+97	+73	+45
50	+254	+203	+177	+151	+125	+105	+81	+50

[terefang]

i have found those roles in pathfinder:

Any Role
Combat Role
No Role
Skill Role
Special Role
Spell Role

[PeterRudin-Burgess]

This is brilliant. Could we emulate character creation in some way. So the Species gives certain Talents (attack type/access to magic/wings etc) In place of culture we have 'niche' so that would be herbivore, herd feeder, apex hunter, pack hunter, sapient tool user. Then over that we have your size and LE skill distributions.

A dragon would have the a Dragon-kin talent that provided claws, breath weapon and wings. It would have the apex hunter archetype as its niche.

[PeterRudin-Burgess]

A Dragon Talent could then be applied to anything in the Dragon genepool, like pseudo dragons and Wyverns

[PeterRudin-Burgess]

We don't need 1000 talents, like RMu Creature Law, but broad strokes.

[terefang]

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types

yes ... we think along similar lines

[terefang]

the creature type values need more tuning, but i think i have the dragon close

[PeterRudin-Burgess]

How do you feel about negative DBs in the final Creature?

I can see the logic that something the size of a house is going to be pretty easy to hit, or even hard to miss.

They have enough hits to stand the beating as well.

Default armour by size (derived from muscle mass and skin thickness) would compensate. So anything that is Large of Huge as a default AT of Light and anything bigger has Heavy.

That makes dinosaurs really easy to hit but really tough to kill.

[terefang]

added armor types to the creature types:

Dragon Size	LE	OBb	OBm	OBs	OBt	AT	DB	Hits
Fine	11	98.0	1.0	-40.0	58	Heavy	64	39
Diminutive	11	98.0	1.0	-20.0	78	Heavy	44	51
Tiny	11	98.0	1.0	-10.0	88	Heavy	34	78
Small	11	98.0	1.0	-5.0	93	Heavy	29	109
Medium	11	98.0	1.0	0.0	98	Heavy	24	156
Large	11	98.0	1.0	5.0	103	Heavy	19	234
Huge	11	98.0	1.0	10.0	108	Heavy	14	312
Gargantuan	11	98.0	1.0	20.0	118	Heavy	4	468
Colossal	11	98.0	1.0	40.0	138	Heavy	-16	624
Titanic	11	98.0	1.0	80.0	178	Heavy	-56	1248

a creature type would look like so in data for fine tuning (xxM ... multiplier, xxI ... table-index)

Aberration: {
        HTM: 0.8
        HTI: 4
        OBM: 0.75
        OBI: 2
        AT: 0
 }

[PeterRudin-Burgess]

Maybe Large + Huge = Minimum Light Gargantuan + Colossal = Minimum Medium Titanic = Minimum Heavy

Then that can be modified with Flaws the cancel a level of protection or by talents that improve it.

[terefang]

why give gigantic ooze a flaw if it still has no armor ?

lets not over-complicate things

in whitebox/sw a dragon has ac 2 regardless of size

[PeterRudin-Burgess]

OK, I am all for simple.

The Flaw would give the Ooze more DPs to spend on becoming more corrosive or whatever oozes like to do in their spare time.

[terefang]

digesting ?

[terefang]

you may want to look at the subtypes for more inspiration

[terefang]

how about critical severity reduction from size ?

rm/merp had large and super large crit tables.

could it be a simple modifier on the critical roll ?

eg. a medium combatant would get -50 to the critical roll against a titanic creature.

or the critical indicated by substracted from the final ob result is used

eg. result from roll+ob = 143; hits from 143, crit from 93(143-50) is used