Units

[qweytr]

For the first release there needs to be several units for each tech group. There should be at least five levels of infantry and four levels of cavalry for each group. Here's a list of units done so far:

Balkan Inf 1: Peltast Inf 2: Elite Peltast Inf 3: Falxmen, Rhomphaia Warriors Inf 4: Hellenized Infantry Inf 5: Noble Infantry Cav 1: Light Cavalry Cav 2: Scythian Cavalry Cav 3: Royal Cavalry

Celtic Inf 1: Longswordsmen Inf 2: Shortswordsmen Inf 3: Spearmen Inf 4: Ambaxtoi Inf 5: Celtic Phalanx Cav 1: Chariot Cav 2: Trimarcisia, Elite Chariot Cav 3: Chariot Javelineers Cav 4: Mounted Skirmisher

Mediterranean Inf 1: Phalanx, Peltast Inf 2: Elite Phalanx Inf 3: Thureophoi Inf 4: Hastati, Principes Inf 5: Legionaries Cav 1: Companion Cavalry Cav 2: Heavy Companion Cavalry Cav 3: Equites

Middle Eastern Inf 1: Immortals, Sparabara Inf 2: Middle Eastern Phalanx, Bedouin Warriors Inf 3: Argyraspides, Javelineers Inf 4: Chrysaspides, Hillmen Inf 5: Romanized Infantry, Reflex Bowmen Cav 1: Scythe Chariot Cav 2: Cataphract, War Elephant Cav 3: Elite Cataphract Cav 4: Partian Shot

Chinese Inf 1: Crossbowmen Inf 2: Bronze Swordsmen, Heavy Crossbowmen Inf 3: Iron Swordsmen Inf 4: Chinese Conscripts Inf 5: Chinese Volunteers, Chinese Militia Cav 1: Chariots Cav 2: Chinese Horsemen Cav 3: Nomadic Cavalry

Scythian Inf 1: Tribal Warriors Inf 2: Steppe Archers, Steppe Spearmen Inf 3: Heavy Steppe Spearmen Inf 4: Foot Skirmishers Inf 5: Royal Guards Cav 1: Skirmishers Cav 2: Horse Archers Cav 3: Elite Horse Archers Cav 4: Steppe Raiders

Indian Inf 1: Longbowmen Inf 2: Swordsmen Inf 3: Spearmen Inf 4: Elite Longbowmen Inf 5: Steel Bow Cav 1: War Elephants, Chariot Cav 2: Elephant Archers Cav 3: Armored Elephant, Asvakas Cav 4: Elephant Sword, Heavy Cavalry

Nomad Inf 1: Nomadic Bowmen Inf 2: Nomadic Levy Inf 3: Steppe Fighters Inf 4: Dismounted Raiders Cav 1: Steppe Horsemen Cav 2: Steppe Raiders Cav 3: Horse Archers Cav 4: Steppe Horde

North African Inf 1: Sacred Band Inf 2: Libyan Skirmishers Inf 3: Libyan Spearmen Inf 4: Assegai Warriors Inf 5: Berber Spearmen Cav 1: Mounted Javelineers Cav 2: Numidian Cavalry Cav 3: War Elephants, Numidian Raiders Cav 4: Armored Elephants

If you have any ideas for new units, post them here.

[qweytr]

I can't find enough units for the Balkan group. I none of you can find some more units then I will make them use the mediterranean ones.

[Firesoul7]

Peltast should be moved to the second Balkan slot, with 'Thracian Javelinmen' in the first. What we think of when we picture a Peltast was not the first iteration of the troop. 'Sica Fighter' could be added, since the sica was considered their national weapon. All Thracians were renowned for their cavalry, I think the first cavalry slot should be 'Thracian Cavalry' and the second 'Odrysian Cavalry'. 'Rhomphaia Warrior' and 'Falxmen' could go in the fourth infantry slot. The final infantry slot could be 'Thracian Nobles'. The third cavalry slot could be 'Hellenised Cavalry'. 'Thracian Royal Cavalry' would be the final cavalry slot.

[Firesoul7]

By the way, I think the Chinese troop types should mention their traditional weapons of Ji, Jian, and others.

[Firesoul7]

Scythian Inf 1: Young Axes, Tribesmen Inf 2: Steppe Archers, Steppe Spearmen Inf 3: Heavy Steppe Spearmen Inf 4: Foot Skirmishers Inf 5: Royal Guards Cav 1: Horse Archers, Amazonian Warriors Cav 2: Scythian Chariot, Armored Mounted Archers Cav 3: Skirmishers, Noblewomen Cav 4: Steppe Lancers, Raiders

[qweytr]

Thank you. I removed the ahistorical Amazon units and it seems that chariots were no longer used in Scythia at that time. I have added a modified list to the first post.

[Firesoul7]

There were 'amazons' among the Scythians, in fact the Scythians were the inspiration for Greek amazons. Scythian women fought on the battlefield alongside their men all the time, in fact most nomadic societies had very good gender equality. On 29 Dec 2015 11:13, "qweytr" notifications@github.com wrote:

Thank you. I removed the ahistorical Amazon units and it seems that chariots were no longer used in Scythia at that time. I have added a modified list to the first post.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/PhelanBavaria/ancienttimeline/issues/48#issuecomment-167767320 .

[qweytr]

It's likely that there were some women in the Scythian armies, but that's something to include in the unit descriptions rather than the names. Amazons didn't exist in the way they are generally understood in western cultures.

[Firesoul7]

Balkan: Cav 2: Thracian Cavalry Cav 3: Hellenised Cavalry

Mediterranean: Cav 4: Elite Equites

Chinese: Cav 4: Chinese Cataphracts (Google them, they were used between the Jin and the Tang, which is a little late but technology wasn't advancing so much so they could have got them early, or alternatively these could be seen as an earlier version of the troop)

[qweytr]

I was thinking that not all groups need the fourth cavalry unit. The Roman cavalry for example was quite a lot behind the Persian one and the Chinese had worse cavalry than the nomads to their north. Especially if there aren't any better ideas than elite variants and units out of the timeline.

Indian and Nomad groups are the big ones that are still undone. It might also be good to have a separate group for Germanic peoples and perhaps North Africans.

[Firesoul7]

I'm always in favor of more unit groups, please add them to the main post. Also, what about the Balkan group? Is there anything wrong with my ideas for their cavalry? Also, which unit groups are yet to be implemented in the mod? Perhaps some sort of symbol or something after implemented unit groups?

[qweytr]

I'm not a fan of Thracian Cavalry. I generally try to avoid naming units according to peoples or locations.

I don't remember exactly which units are in and which are not. I guess this means that some sort of indication would be useful.

The first infantry slot is the one you have at the start during Alexander's invasion. Persians fought Alexander with Immortals and Sparabara, so I think they should stay in in the first slot.

[qweytr]

We'll worry about that once we get there. For the first release it's Alexander and after.

[Firesoul7]

Middle Eastern Inf 1: Immortals, Sparabara Inf 2: Ashum, Bedouin Warriors Inf 3: Middle Eastern Phalanx, Argyraspides Inf 4: Thorax Pikemen, Hillmen Inf 5: Persian Javelins, Chrysaspides, Chalkaspides

[Firesoul7]

There

[qweytr]

What are Ashum, Khahyahlim, Shotelai, Thorax Pikemen and Sahnegohrim?

[qweytr]

Remember that the biggest Middle Eastern countries during the period were Achaemenids, Seleucids and Parthia, so the units should be designed to fit them.

[Firesoul7]

Ashum are Arabian archers, Khahyahlim and Sahnegohrim are both Jewish, but were used as mercenaries all over. Shotelai is a warrior that uses a Shotel, a curved blade, they were common all over the place. Thorax Pikemen were originally pikemen with very long spears used by Alexander, but his successors all used them too.

[Firesoul7]

Ashum were used as mercenaries by Seleucids and Parthians, probably Achaemenids too. Same deal with the Jewish troops. Shotelai were used by absolutely everyone, and Thorax Pikemen were used by Seleucids and Parthia. It's likely had the Achaemenids survived they would have adopted them too, because they were so effective.

[Firesoul7]

Any of those units can be used by any of the big powers of the Middle Eastern group, but without including diversity many of the smaller powers may find themselves with weird units.

[qweytr]

According to Wikipedia Shotel was used only by one country, Damot, during this period. The others I can't find anything on, so you need to show some sources before I can add them.

[Firesoul7]

OK, it seems that I thought Shotel was a more generic name than it is, Shamshir Warriors can be used instead.

[qweytr]

Seleucids should perhaps use Mediterranean units, so we don't need to add Greek units to the Middle Eastern set.

[Firesoul7]

The Jewish ones come straight from here: http://www.honga.net/totalwar/attila/unit.php?l=en&v=attila&f=att_fact_himyar&u=att_des_es_sahnegohrim http://www.honga.net/totalwar/attila/unit.php?l=en&v=attila&f=att_fact_himyar&u=att_des_es_khahyahlim

[Firesoul7]

Then you would also have to make Parthia use the Mediterranean group, and add a bunch of Persian units to the Mediterranean set. The simple reality was that Persian powers started to use some Greek units. They didn't have the same kinds of standing armies as say the Romans, and so they weren't that nationalist about what units they used, it was just, what can we get that's good.

[Firesoul7]

http://www.honga.net/totalwar/attila/unit.php?l=en&v=attila&f=att_fact_himyar&u=att_des_es_ashum http://www.honga.net/totalwar/rome2/unit.php?l=en&v=rome2&f=rom_ptolemaics&u=Gre_Thorax_Pike Here's where Ashum and Thorax Pikemen are from, I rely on stuff like this quite a bit, but there's absolutely no other source of unit names, and who is complaining about Total War's research?

[qweytr]

Those are Jewish Himyarite units. Judaism didn't spread there until long after the end of this mod's timeline and Himyar wasn't that relevant yet either. The most important Yemeni state during the timeline was Sabaea.

[Firesoul7]

They are used by Himyar, and they are Jewish, but who says that other groups didn't use them. It wasn't just luck that caused the Jews to survive so long, it was how good they were at fighting.

[qweytr]

I'm not saying they didn't use them, but if there are no sources saying they did I can't add them.

[Firesoul7]

I've removed them now. What about the other units?

[qweytr]

You suggested Shamshir Warriors. This worn't work either, as Shamshir was introduced to Persia in the 9th century AD.

[qweytr]

The Seleucids are a bit troublesome, as they used Greek infantry and Persian cavalry, mainly Phalanx and Cataphracts. It would be quite easy to fill the Middle Eastern set with Seleucid units like Argyraspides, Chrysaspides and Chalkaspides. Later on the Seleucid infantry was Romanized, so Romanized infantry could be in there as well.

[Firesoul7]

North African: Inf 1: Desert Tribesmen Inf 2: Libyan Spearmen, Punic Nobles Inf 3: Nubian Archers, Assegai Spears Inf 4: Tuareg Warriors, Aures Mountain Fighters Inf 5: Azamigh Spearmen Cav 1: Camel Riders Cav 2: Nubian Camels Cav 3: Elephant Riders Cav 4: (Armoured) War Elephants

[Firesoul7]

Nomad Inf 1: Nomadic Bowmen Inf 2: Nomadic Levy Inf 3: Steppe Fighters Inf 4: Dismounted Raiders

[Firesoul7]

For Indian cavalry: http://theindianhistory.org/Gupta/gupta-empire-military.html this describes a successor but says that traditionally chariots were used. The Gupta Empire changed to mounted cavalry, I'll try to find something on earlier nations so we have something direct though.

[Firesoul7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanda_Empire#Military This is all I can get, no specific names, it seems they used both cavalry and chariots

[Firesoul7]

I think the first cavalry slot should be Chariots, they can have both chariots and war elephants in that slot.

[Firesoul7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_India

[Firesoul7]

OK, Spear Cavalry, Bamboo Longbows and Khanda Swordsmen were all used under the Mauryas. Nanda can have Bengali Warriors, since it was with those that they conquered India. We can also have 'Indian Spears', which would describe 'Other foot soldiers could be armed with a large animal hide tower shield and a spear or javelins' from the article.

[qweytr]

All the suggested units are now done, so I consider the units done for the first release. New units can be discussed later in a new issue if necessary.