[RFC] Lyn Development (Update announcement)

[TheSmashBoy]

Introduction

A lot has happened in the Lyn Dev Room Discord server, mainly revolving around Bringo's release of a showcase video of Ishmael's and Bringo's own developed Knuckles. After posting it in the off-topic-shit channel of the server, as usual, drama surged. That, and it happened while I was having a well deserved sleep to study for a Biology exam (which got moved to next Tuesday due to some issues in the University counsel and studential issues and other social justice crap I don't feel like talking about). I read every single comment, argument, trolls, you name it, and decided to leave it. Because below I will state some uncomforting reasons to some members in the community that I feel I should share, and I don't plan sugarcoating here, so honesty is not only encouraged but I demmand it.

Problem and Thesis

So it's time we all stop either pretending or just be outright honest with ourselves, might as well me included: I have studied the history of PMCC and its stigma long enough, and as a member with critical view of things, I'm starting to not only clearly see our opponents' points clearly but can actually sympathize. I will bring a rather tough point brought by Nano in the same server, and you can look it up if you want yourself (there is a search bar after all, so knock yourself out): PMCC has been a leeching parasite. That's right, a member of PMCC said this. Now this doesn't necessarily mean it has always been like that, I can admit there has been some small progress in PMCC, but most of them were optimization, not radical progress (like getting Lyn an actual Final Smash). After that, PMCC has been only waiting for more leaked content. I can say this because, after I have made the Lyn server, and after no one absolutely showed up in the standardization of ManlySpirit's model of Lyn's development; a few members were requesting the use earlier builds of Lyn which, frankly, don't exist anymore, others wanted some moves similar if not, outright the same as those in the old builds. How bad is this? We aren't looking forward, that's how bad it is. So bad, it irritated me more than how I am after now a few members now give a damn how I will work on Lyn, or plan to do it, whether alone or with a team. This, and add to the drama and how it affected many members (directly or not), this just isn't acceptable. What is even worst, and forgive me for pointing names, is that the project leader (bb010g), is not the least interested in doing actual recruitment of talented modders who can get the project done. And before I'm accused of strawman, I don't believe bb010g is strictly uninterested, I'm saying that he is not actively interested (that means he is not in the mood at the moment). Forgive me for being so critical of this but I just don't see how this is motivating of a leader of a project with well intended goals should operate, attitude and motivation. I can understand he doesn't have the time nor dedication due to real life affairs, but I don't think those are the only reasons. Overall, PMCC failed to keep a cohesive team once again, but I confess to have failed as well, on Lyn, to my most unfortunate case. I say it with humility and honesty. I have done optimizations too, work that hardly got merged (and that is my other issue. No work gets merged. Hardly anyone is a GH Admin but bb010g and frankly, it is irritating that the only surviving GH Admin, has its members merge the works themselves, when a few of them dedicate their time to, in theory at least, develop and complete the characters. I am one of them. I don't have the time, nor will I ever have the time, to dedicate to Git when I am focused more on finishing Lyn specifically and give all my time to finish her [will address this in the conclusion]), and some recolor works, true, barely any animation work, but comparing which members of PMCC (those who care about CC I mean), I was the most active and actually do something to complete Lyn. The point here is: PMCC cannot be Community Complete, especially the last word, if as of now, the team is a bunch of beta testers and leechers on content. Nano has a point, we won't get help from outside, and if we do, it will be so little it will fly away like the wind, like the former GH Admins. They'll probably be either discarded or blown away. I'm not trying to purposefully derail PMCC here, I'm criticizing it's current status because it honestly deserves it. If PMCC won't wake up from critics from without, then we'll have to do it from within, and see what happens next. So far this was directed more to PMCC, so I will quickly get to the point on what this will mean for Lyn: I'm on my own. There, I said it. I can't wait for PMCC to approve as a consensus what files are legit for PMCC and which are 'off the chart'. That, and I have demonstrated to have unorthodox opinions on how to finish Isaac and Sami, especially Sami, and much worst I believe, Lyn. So I'm no help to the counsel anymore it seems. At the same time, I do wanna do something for PMCC. I wanna help, but if we keep chasing ghost standards, we won't go anywhere, Going with PMDT standards is not really my issue before you conclude anything. My issue is what each member sees as what are the standards exactly. They are either vague, inconsistent or outright contradictory, I don't know. I think if PMCC really wants progress, they should focus on a completion that is for the sake of the character and not for the sake of PMDT. Because I'm pretty sure the former will get us somewhere than the latter. We've been sticking to the latter and nothing happened because a few members disagree on what PMDT exactly wanted, and the fact a few ex-PMDT either don't care how we complete the characters at all, or outright don't wanna help out. We have no guidelines, and if we do, they are either vague, ambiguous, or just straightforwardly point once and for all, according to how the character is in the franchise (personality, attribute, etc.), which it's much more cohesive and solid than relying on a team that, frankly, does not concretely exist since they branched out and went their own way. For Lyn, I'll be going with ManlySpirit's model. His vision not only fairly compromises with a lot of Lyn's pre-existent moves from the most recent leaked build of Lyn, but has parameters that not only fine tune them but reasonably fix, change and polish the image of the Lyn concept. And yes, it has a solid, competitive potential for her development like we all want for the fours. So what if it's not exactly how PMDT wanted? In the end, PMCC has two ultimate choice, either standardize what they are offered from either within or outside regardless if it goes off what PMDT planned, or do nothing, and forgive me for this last sentence: die as a project in the most definitive way. I'll paraphrase something Yohan said back at the server before the salty shitstorm even began at the server: Lyn and Knuckles, while they will never reach exactly or near PM Quality, they are fun to play with and great characters. I agree, that and will retain competitive value like all the cast in Project M.

Conclusion

I'm making my own project once I work on Lyn, and maybe Knuckles. I'll share it with PMCC (if you guys are grateful enough to accept what I will offer or try to offer), and after that, I will begin my famous Trueblade Marth project, some other FE PM stuff and work on Isaac and Sami on my own terms. If any of you wish to help out on this quest of mine, feel free, if you feel like you won't feel comfortable (because you won't agree with the parameters or because it will be too much work for you), then that is fine too. I'm just voicing my own concerns, opinions and views of all this shit that I honestly, stop giving a crap. I'm tired of the same old shit. This whole drama warfare made no sense in the first place, it not only tears teams apart it tears friendships, bonds and reputation, and the following two things is something to think about, a lot. Think what you want of me or the entire PMCC. I don't care. I'll help what I can, but I'm taking matters into my own hands. No more room for nitty compromises like before, because it won't work and nobody will care honestly. I'm still learning PSA and other modding stuff, and this summer I will dedicate all my brainpower to animate, model and texture. Help to collaborate is appreciated, especially helping me out on the Lyn I'll make, but by default, I'll work on it alone. Sure I'll obviously ask how do I do X and that and how to use Y feature in Z program, but in terms of management, by default, I'm solo.

P.S: If by any chance you guys somehow got your hands on finished Lyns or Knuckles from other people. I don't want it. That is crystal clear. Perhaps I can use them as a reference for some ideas, but they won't be on my personal build, ever. Just letting you know.

[bb010g]

PMCC's main goal is "to bring the leaked newcomers, completed in a style as close as possible to Project M Development Team's 3.6 work, to players in an accessible, unintrusive manner". I'll go over what I think that means for each character.

For Knuckles, he was pretty much finished. He needed some polish and maybe some balancing, but that's it. To keep that 3.6 PMDT feel, he just needs some polish. If someone wants to rework him, that's cool, but it probably won't be a part of CC.

For Lyn, she was a bit further from completion. Animations were rough, balancing was messy, and she wasn't on the (comparative) brink of release. That's why I really don't have an issue with you wanting to rework her. As long as the final build has that PMDT "feel", it's good. To get merged back into CC master, all it has to do is be as good or better than the current Lyn, according to the community. In fact, if everyone is fine with it, I'm fine with you working on a branch here in the meantime. (I know Git can be awkward, though, and you in particular seem to not like it, so if you want to toss files around somewhere else until then, I'm not going to stop you.)

Isaac and Sami are far more open to interpretation. We have some PMDT design docs, but they've reworked stuff a lot during development, even for released characters. It might end up that they're ultimately unsuited for PMCC. If they are, then we'll just drop them. Otherwise, there will be different views on how to build them, and they'll have to be worked out here somehow, hopefully in the open.

As the manager for all of this, my goal is to make sure that CC provides the best, PMDT-style characters. I can't control who wants to work on this. As we saw last night, Ishmael & bringobrongo are capable people who started out here and just don't care to contribute anymore. Pyotr is the same way. I can't help that. If you want to do outreach and get people to help, you're already a collaborator. Go do it! (You don't even need to be a collaborator for that.) Being full admin won't help there, and I'd rather keep less hands in the org given what's happened before. From what I've seen, the work you're doing in the Lyn working group Discord server is great. I'd have no issue with merging it in once it gets to a state that's as good or better. Considering you're doing an overhaul, what you'd probably need in the PR would just be an overview of what's changed, and we can balance from there. Specific frame-data type stuff would be nice, but not necessary. If we get the majority of those active here to sign off on it, then it's in. Simple as that.

I think you're over-exaggerating what the project goals state. Things can't always be perfect, or else we wouldn't be here in the first place, and the PMDT would still be jamming. Drama will happen. Trolling, like what happened last night, will happen. IMHO they didn't really get much from that. Maybe they got off a bit on my confusion about why they made a video, but them & Nano had already planned out the fake file drop. They were looking for us to come begging at their feet for their work, and when they got something that barely qualified, they ran the fake file drop plan. And even then, I don't think they got the response they wanted. Pretty much everyone there was in agreement that it wouldn't be used in CC. They were trolling, and trying to create drama. The way to deny them is not to split apart to get away from that. That gives them the satisfaction of seeing the small community we have here split. Yes, legitimate drama will happen, but to mature as a community, we have to figure it out and get over it.

My goal is to keep the door open for those who'd like to help, and in doing so provide everyone else a stable place to look for a good completion of these characters they've heard about. I won't be perfect at it, but I'll keep trying to provide that service. This being open means that whoever wants to try and contribute may try, and succeed or fail. If others wish to work off of what they tried, they'd be free do so. It's not glamorous. It's not exciting. It's not particularly dynamic. It relies on people to want to work on characters that are somewhat taboo in this community, esp. the closer you get to the core & ex-PMDT members. I can't help it if they don't want to associate with us. Going private probably won't help either, except that whatever work they do finish may be lost.

You can see us if a bunch of leechers if you want to view us in that way. If people are waiting for more leaks instead of creating themselves, then that's their problem. The project's content stands aside from those who work. It's just a bunch of data. People can treat it as they like. It's as open to use for leechers who don't touch it as it is open for those who will finish it single-handedly. Or perhaps someone just wants to turn all the textures green. Will we always be infatuated with turning textures green?

Change your view. Stop thinking of what others want this to be, or what you've seen in it in the past. See it for what you & other like-minded people could do with it. If you want to fork anything here and run it your very own way under your complete control, go ham. That's why it's open. :) The project is, ultimately, a place to hold a bunch of files. Files don't have opinions. You do.

(As a last note, I still have an open offer to walk you through Git, but you always never seem to have the time. It's really not that hard if you stop thinking it's hard.)

[TheSmashBoy]

@bb010g I'll answer in point by point method just to keep track of claim without missing anything.

"For Knuckles, he was pretty much finished. He needed some polish and maybe some balancing, but that's it. To keep that 3.6 PMDT feel, he just needs some polish. If someone wants to rework him, that's cool, but it probably won't be a part of CC."

I get Knuckles. He was indeed almost done, but that's because he was the first suggested and worked on way before the PMDT "Schism" happened. So they had more time and dedication. So much so that in a way, his style of play was 'in front of us' and so there was hardly a debate for how Knuckles should be developed. Such is not the case for the rest.

"For Lyn, she was a bit further from completion. Animations were rough, balancing was messy, and she wasn't on the (comparative) brink of release. That's why I really don't have an issue with you wanting to rework her. As long as the final build has that PMDT "feel", it's good. To get merged back into CC master, all it has to do is be as good or better than the current Lyn, according to the community. In fact, if everyone is fine with it, I'm fine with you working on a branch here in the meantime. (I know Git can be awkward, though, and you in particular seem to not like it, so if you want to toss files around somewhere else until then, I'm not going to stop you.)"

Now here is my issue. My issue is the particular "according to the community." Last time I checked, Lyn ideas were indeed 'tossed around' but they were hardly constructive. Manly is the only one who constructively set out and figured out how Lyn should've been played. Now, my issue is not you with Manly and me, my issue is you and the community itself. You are witness to the discrepancies that happened back at Discord. All of that could've been addressed fairly well if the entire PMCC counsel responsibly attended a meeting. What pissed me off ore was your demmand for some sort of formality (like it had to be a big announcement or whatever). That and many members don't agree with Manly's model, they instead snatch on to "PMDT's work"...by pointing out to past non existent worked leaks (that not even those who hold those builds will be willing to share nor discuss). I tried keeping team cohesiveness at the Discord, it went well until the drama. But is not much so the drama but how the drama basically affected other members who Szion personally came out and said he lost motivation because he disagreed with 90% of the proposed parameters. So my issue is not with you in this particular but, how will you handle the discrepancies as project leader. My fear is that the moment I come with that Lyn set and done, and a few if not more come out and vehemently oppose my model, I'll be turned down. Just because some don't 'find that PM feel' you speak off. The PM feel is another issue. What is a PM feel anyways?. I played PM for a long time and if you ask me, a more solid concrete way to put it is competitive value. That's the cutting edge attribute of what makes PM, PM: competitive, fast paced, high skill and tactic. Those are things that Manly's model has, but apparently, other members apply a different definition of PM feel to the point they add how they feel about the concept of the moveset in relation to the leaked, incomplete build, never ever looking to a future, unique but competitive and new build of Lyn. And if they are, they are looking at shadows of leaks after leaks. It's irritating. That's what discourages me personally.

"Isaac and Sami are far more open to interpretation. We have some PMDT design docs, but they've reworked stuff a lot during development, even for released characters. It might end up that they're ultimately unsuited for PMCC. If they are, then we'll just drop them. Otherwise, there will be different views on how to build them, and they'll have to be worked out here somehow, hopefully in the open."

Well unlike your point, my point back there was that since indeed those two are like 5-10% complete, there is hardly any value to go 'with what the PMDT did' on them since the quality of their work are more prototype than, say, Knuckles' quality? Like there is no point in debating about their development. We need a new standard for them with PM generic qualities so they feel PM but are very unique. I have yet to see that kind of innovation on PMCC.

"As the manager for all of this, my goal is to make sure that CC provides the best, PMDT-style characters."

That's my issue. The goal is fantastic, I don't disagree, but it's much more like the concept of this 'PMDT-style.' It's sort of becoming a malleable concept among CC members and are very inflexible in remaking the 10% duo because lack of manpower, yet Riki is killing his ass off with his three jobs (I think it's three) and barely dedicates to Isaac, and he doesn't want to use UN Owen's as a base but the vPMCC Isaac. And that Isaac is horrible, whilst Owen already did much more and Destiny Hiro did even greater work with him. But that's not it; it's the lack of a constructive, definitive and solid standard conceptual model for Isaac and Sami. Lyn has one, Knuckles has one (just watch SDoom's elaboration on Knux's background and his showcases). Isaac and Sami have nothing. Just tids and bits that by the way, DH confirmed Sami was not even gonna be planned as a Snake clone (the horror!). Something I suspected way back but people jumped over me like a heretic (well not really but like were shocked at my thoughts).

"I can't control who wants to work on this. As we saw last night, Ishmael & bringobrongo are capable people who started out here and just don't care to contribute anymore. Pyotr is the same way. I can't help that. If you want to do outreach and get people to help, you're already a collaborator. Go do it! (You don't even need to be a collaborator for that.)"

I know you can't control these things, I never denied that. My issue is not what you cannot control but what you can gather for PMCC. You are the only surviving GH Admin, it's only natural you would go about and merge evry change that is requested to you that is aligned with the standard, that's practically your job, or role. Other members have roles, and not all can be involved in the Git not because they don't get it but because their investment has been laid out more to modding. My issue is you as leader can recruit and ask around in your spare time. Modding isn't a job so you can recruit even when you are playing Minecraft with your buddies at a College Studential Assembly break (not implying you actually play MC, just an example). Other guys need and steer their focus on completing these characters. And while they can at some point learn Git, they just don't have the dedicated time to do so. Like me, who is constantly learning PSA coding and gonna learn modelling and animating.

" Being full admin won't help there, and I'd rather keep less hands in the org given what's happened before."

I mean...I'm the admin in the Lyn server and I've basically done most of the work there even though many of them were meant for their respective members. That is because, most were newbies or were vets but had other projects in mind prior to the Lyn dev stuff. So if I can do that 'multi' task, so can you.

"From what I've seen, the work you're doing in the Lyn working group Discord server is great. I'd have no issue with merging it in once it gets to a state that's as good or better."

But weren't you the one that said at PMCC, whatever is merged is also beta tested by members and share criticism and suggestions? Like all of that dynamic has been literally taking place at Discord when it could've easily been taken here or at Vektor. And it's all because you have me merge them up, when it should be you, and up to the members to test out and either give thumbs up or make a criticism. So yes, I did great work, but..at costs that could've been easily paid off if you also did your part.

"Considering you're doing an overhaul, what you'd probably need in the PR would just be an overview of what's changed, and we can balance from there. Specific frame-data type stuff would be nice, but not necessary. If we get the majority of those active here to sign off on it, then it's in. Simple as that."

Problem: It's an overhaul, and because it's only me doing the optimizations, I haven't had time to gather a few analysts to document the changes. Another problem. The format of the Git. It's complicated. And by complicated I mean how I have to write the changelogs and whatnot. Why can't I just write a paragraph in a .txt or some other document and start from that. We'd have easily accessible resource of change. But the log at Git, just makes it harder for me and much work than I can do if I just write a document that can do the same thing you want but more clear, organized and honestly, less technical.

"I think you're over-exaggerating what the project goals state."

No I'm not. I wasn't criticizing the stated goals, I was criticizing how those goals are specifically achieved. It's different. The goals are not the problem. It's what is been done to achieve it. It's a case of a great and fantastic idea been poorly achieved, that's basically what it comes down to.

"Things can't always be perfect, or else we wouldn't be here in the first place, and the PMDT would still be jamming."

I did not write this thesis with the presupposition that the PMCC goal and methods must be perfect and finely tuned strictly. I wrote this because I'm concerned with: 1) How we are going about gathering manpower. 2) What is been done with the files and how they are been discussed. 3) The presence of solid conceptual standards for the characters. 4) And team cohesiveness.

All which have been done either sloppy or just outright wrong. That's what I'm saying.

" Drama will happen. Trolling, like what happened last night, will happen. IMHO they didn't really get much from that. Maybe they got off a bit on my confusion about why they made a video, but them & Nano had already planned out the fake file drop. They were looking for us to come begging at their feet for their work, and when they got something that barely qualified, they ran the fake file drop plan. And even then, I don't think they got the response they wanted. Pretty much everyone there was in agreement that it wouldn't be used in CC. They were trolling, and trying to create drama. The way to deny them is not to split apart to get away from that. That gives them the satisfaction of seeing the small community we have here split. Yes, legitimate drama will happen, but to mature as a community, we have to figure it out and get over it."

I know drama will happen, my critique was that, the idea and existence of such drama is, in community terms, nonsensical. A really great alternative to this shitstorm is cohesive, social team work among different teams. Thing is, legal issue doesn't have to be a problem, and while it can be, as far as Brawl/PM modding goes, there is hardly a legal issue. It doesn't exist. What I got to see is they don't put much effort in the legal argument since honestly it's a double edge sword, rather it's authenticity of work..fair enough. The drama is partly we took work from PM that they give up, didn't want anyone continuing because of [insert theory here]. Now, after all shit has been properly burned, they don't care if a few peeps complete it as long as they aren't distributed, only if they keep a lot of the things from the beta. Because in the end, the leaked characters were beta. I want to see the F4's completed, but completed with reasonable standards, not with some already dead concepts that who knows if after disbandment, PMDT changed their minds and don't give a shit anymore. It's a...weird fishy situation with these characters, but gladly, the witch hunt is over (hope it stays that way).

"You can see us if a bunch of leechers if you want to view us in that way. If people are waiting for more leaks instead of creating themselves, then that's their problem. The project's content stands aside from those who work. It's just a bunch of data. People can treat it as they like."

But...if people can treat it as they like, why demand a standard in the first place? It's counterproductive. I see your point still, but how you are doing about this is discouraging for PMCC's progress. You yourself said you made PMCC's goal directed towards the characters' completion, yes? Good. That people in a community dedicated to complete the characters as per their goal, waiting for a few people, who most are either selfish or have been told not to share or just outright not interested in us; to give them more leaks, more incomplete content. It takes me back to what Nano said: "After you get ALL the leaks, what happens to PMCC?" Take it as troll if you want, that's a really important question. It addresses the heart of the issue in PMCC. What then if all possible leaks are gathered? Then what? That's important: Will people finally start discussing which leak is better to standardize, and then polish? Still wait for more files? Maybe someone will do something? Or maybe someone will quit? This isn't the present but the future of PMCC in relation to leaked content. Nano here most probably presuppose if every leak was readily available and shared to PMCC no problem. It's not just me who wonders about this, me too and I'm sure others who read the whole thing are pondering as well. I wanna help PMCC, but I can't if 90% of the members are more comfortable waiting for more leaks than getting up and start completing or maybe remake what they got. Again, you are project leader, you not only must anticipate all this but also deal with this, and fast. I'm not derailing here I'm trying to help as a fellow member who is concerned about this team and project.

"It's as open to use for leechers who don't touch it as it is open for those who will finish it single-handedly. Or perhaps someone just wants to turn all the textures green. Will we always be infatuated with turning textures green?"

Again, I don't have a problem of an open project. I have a problem with an open project that is becoming too open. Sometimes, you need to filter out, bb. PMCC is open, yes, but don't just leave it like that. That's what I'm saying.

"Change your view. Stop thinking of what others want this to be, or what you've seen in it in the past. See it for what you & other like-minded people could do with it."

Here's the thing: I already have those people, and guess what? They share the same concerns. The issue here is PMCC is more an open garden where we can pick fruits and vegetables than a factory with people actually working and constructing files or characters. PMCC became a botanic park, it is open but anyone can tend the garden with whatever fruit or seed and just leave it at that. And since fruits don't need work, you just eat them after planting them, that's basically PMCC. PMCC needs to be more a factory of actual modding innovation than a garden. It's fun and cool to have an open project. It has a sort of democratic feel to it. But PMCC can't achieve it's goal properly if you keep it as a garden. Fine that people can go grab Isaac files and mess around with it, but those are for visitors who want access to the files. I'm talking about members at PMCC. People who joined here.

"If you want to fork anything here and run it your very own way under your complete control, go ham."

Well I can't go ham because last time I tried going ham, I got cheese (kappa). But seriously, I wanted to merge my files so badly, but meanwhile I go do more optimization, go merge them yourself. When you can, sure, but when you can, merge them.

"That's why it's open. :) The project is, ultimately, a place to hold a bunch of files. Files don't have opinions. You do."

Well true, but. Come on, man. That's not how it's supposed to be run. Yeah people can have free access but that doesn't entail an obligation to do something or to do nothing. What I'm saying is, as project leader, fire up some motivation. Assign something, go ham with your members, You are the boss. Do bossy stuff or something (don't assign me since I'm on my own but for the others...). And define solidly those standards, you can do that, what you'd be doing is setting up parameters. That indirectly filters out members (or filters in) since that way, you get to spark interest and motivation to get those standards to work. It's an excellent idea.

"(As a last note, I still have an open offer to walk you through Git, but you always never seem to have the time. It's really not that hard if you stop thinking it's hard.)"

Because like I explained, I'm more focused to modding. I can have it but I can't at the same time because after what's happened and all I learned, I practically dedicated my time to learn more difficult stuff that needs time and dedication more than merging some files you yourself can do.

[SzionBlue]

Good points or not idk why anyone feels the need to be fuckniggas about the work they've done, like, we get it. nothing amazing has happened in a long time, but then to come at us like "oh hurr we finished lyn already" <and not even want to shove it in our face like the knuckles they shoved in our face...ha. Why would such toxic members of the modding community be allowed to stick around? While its true not much gets done, and Im guilty of this too. I'd like to work on lyn more but I can't animate and time to learn it is hard to find with job hunting, staying out of the 0$ in the bank account and studying for an IT degree. So as far as "having the balls to learn animation and modelling" they can fuck off for all I care. This entire mess was 200% unacceptable. Still, it was, perhaps a wake-up call. Though I'm certain everyone here knew. The team didn't need to be taunted about it. If I knew how to animate I'd spend weeks or months or however long it takes just to get the damn forward tilt. But I don't. Many of us don't. We also don't need to be reminded.

[TheSmashBoy]

@SzionBlue I get what you are saying, I too don't have the time, worst during college weeks and months since what I'm studying has me sacrifice even a 3 minute free time, and that's saying something. That's why the best and least I can do is sacrifice time for a summer month and then enjoy the rest with vacation. I don't think I can learn 3DS Max and or modeling and animating in Maya in a single month, but I'll try my best.

[TopOfAllWorlds]

I'd really like to find some way to get into or contribute to this project, perhaps try to create some more activity, give my ideas, and maybe even learn some modeling or something along the way. It seems like there is some discord (pun not intended) in the group, so I'd like to say I really don't want the group to end up in shambles because of it. I really like this groups work.

I've asked for voice permissions in the riot server in case you see this and except it faster. Why did you stop the discord server btw?

[TheSmashBoy]

@TopOfAllWorlds If it's voice permission at PMCC Riot, you need to contact bb010g directly to give you permission.

I didn't necessarily stopped the Discord server, but I stopped working on it because I don't have the proper PC right now plus the fact I don't recruit teams actively anymore due to the points in the OP. I'm sorry it has come to this, but I made up my mind. Help is still appreciated no matter what, of course.