SA-21 (As a full system) Now Deployed

[HVAA]

DB Selector

DB3K

Hypothetical

No

Name

SA-21

Facility Type

SAM

Country

Russia

Service

Air Force

In Commission

2021 probably a bit earlier (2020??)

Number in Service

At least 5, probably a lot more

Crew

No response

Dispersion Radius (m)

80 - 140

Sensors

1 x Grave Stone 92N6 1 x Cheese Board 96L6

Mounts

8 x TEL (mix of all 4 types, but this could be covered by a 'universal' type, akin to a ships VLS that can take all of the missiles that this could fire). So: 5V55R (proven, used in Ukraine and reported in various sources in at least Surface to Surface mode) 48N6 Gargoyle 48N6E1 Gargoyle Mod 1 48N6E2 Gargoyle Mod 2 48N6DM Gargoyle Mod 3 40N6 Grendel 9M96 Gambler 9M96D Gambler Mod 1

Magazines

Standard reloads for the SA-21 8 Tel units (so 32 full tube equivalents).

Aircraft & Docking Facilities

No response

Comments

OK, I know this is going to make me unpopular in certain circles. This exists. Proving it to your (correctly applied) standards is hard, but I have spent a long time looking for evidence of its deployment that can be reliably used. The site near Kerch has 4 TELS with two vertical rows of 6 missiles. These are too long to be SA-27 (BukM3) and, critically the spacing is assymetric. This matters because with 2 stacked big tubes on the LHS of the trailers and 2 x 2 (plus something underneath on the RHS), this is the clearest evidence I can find to support the addition of the 9M96 to the SA-21 system. The other TELS there appear to be standard ones, as to most of the reloads, but there are some odd shaped tube clusters there too. I have checked shadow position, obliques, symmetry and mirror image - indeed all forms of bias in the imagery and have discounted those where I could not be sure that it wasnt some sort of imagery 'artifact'.

For the missile names we (NATO) don't name systems with G words. Only missiles are so named (Guild, Guideline, Goa, Ganef, Gammon, Gainful, Grail, Gecko, Gaskin, Grumble, Gadfly, Gladiator/Giant, Gauntlet, Grizzly, Gargoyle, Gambler/Grendel etc).

I know this appears to be a duplicate of earlier (either closed 'not planned' or open not done/proven) requests. I will keep looking for more sites in the 2021 imagery (dont think we are going to get 2022 imagery of Russia or China for a while yet).

Location 45°19'23.20"N, 36°21'44.78"E Near Kerch * Location 44°32'38.51"N 33°25'58.19"E Mys Fiolent **

Sources

Google Earth Imagery Dated 18 May 2021* and 28 November 2020**

[ghost]

I also wanted this addition for sometime. If visually confirmed, then I don't see why it shouldn't be added. Considering the 9M96/D missiles were the original active radar (ARH) missiles to be used with the system before the release of the longer range 40N6 missile. I think 9M96 were first deployed (though not visually confirmed) around 2012-2013? 40N6 was deployed around 2015-2017 if I'm not mistaken.

[HVAA]

The more I look, the more I find:

53°21'52.57"N 50°16'18.16"E Samara 28 August 21 59°33'53.95"N 30°42'16.12"E St Petersburg SAM Ring 27 July 21 64°29'44.56"N 39°38'45.27"E Severodinsk South 1 July 21

[KLABDB3K]

Nope on the 9M96 saga. Gorshkov repeatedly delayed on service entry because 9M96 didn't work, so yes it was at air shows and in PR blurb but acty working, more like 2018 and beyond, For in service try 2021 when S350 was accepted. As for the S400 long range missiles there is a saga about when the factory to build them actually got built versus when the design bureau finalised the design. First in service firing 9M96 January 2022? https://twitter.com/elizifferblatt/status/1484188437896912897?t=WEGI2Ic9yc_pp5ysCs2b6Q&s=19

[ghost]

The more I look, the more I find:

53°21'52.57"N 50°16'18.16"E Samara 28 August 21 59°33'53.95"N 30°42'16.12"E St Petersburg SAM Ring 27 July 21 64°29'44.56"N 39°38'45.27"E Severodinsk South 1 July 21

Good finds. It's clear from pics that the 9M96 series in combination with long range S-400 missiles or alone is in active service.

[HVAA]

No sorry mate you are linking a video that shows nothing. The tweet suggests something the video does not back up. This is two blokes at KY putting what looks like a bursting charge into a tube on an S-350 in what looks like a test of the frangible cap.

This system was seen and filmed at Sochi before that tweet, open source, and clearly deployed. There is FAKEL video of it being tested in a tube that is clearly before this tweet. The reason land based systems pressed into Naval SAM use are 'difficult' is due the multi axis movement of the firing platform.

As for the others all are linked with the system in some form or another and a lot more 'substantially' than many items in the game that have very optomistic IOC dates or are future dates (but not hypothetical).

My request asks you to consider a 2020 ISD for 9M96 as part of the S-400 and I have provided visual evidence of where they are deployed. Its not at every site I checked, indeed its not even close to 20% of the sites I checked, but it is there. If you credit S-400 with the claimed ABM capability then you need an interceptor missile - 40N6 is not - its a HVAA killer, 9M96 with its terminal thrust vectoring, high pK and active seeker is the weapon that gives it ABM (in terminal phase only).

I am not doing this to be bloody minded, I was asked for evidence so I found GeoInt which backs up the deployment of the systems at several (not all, not by a long way) of the S-400 sites. Not even started looking at China properly yet, but then they 'hide' their launchers when not elevated under shelters (at most sites), but I am betting they will be found there too.

If nothing else, make it hypothetical, add the full range of missiles, you have the expertise and coding examples provided by multi weapon VLS on DDG-51's and CG-52's to make this happen. A Burke, in game as well as IRL can have several flavours of missile down range at the same time, so why not SA-21.

[KLABDB3K]

Apologies should have been clearer NOT disputing that it is in service now and probably from 2020 time frame. Just challenging any earlier dates based on the air show PR advertorial ruse. Regarding the you tube clip.. My understanding was that Its a video which is edited from a news article from Russian government media and that is actaully saying the first firing of an in service S350 system was Jan 2022. These is a huge discrepancy in actual service dates. Just putting it out there that Russian manufacturers have been known to guild the lilly. "Up to 38 battalion sets of the S-350 were reportedly to be acquired as part of SAP 2020.197 However, as of 2020 only the first unit of the S-350 had been handed over to the missile training school at Gatchina, with a first regiment to convert in 2021. Pp138. " Russias-Military-Modernisation-An-Assessment.pdf" THE INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES The S350 apparently also has its own SA-28 designator which in line to be updated for DB496.

[leostun]

Don't forget quad-loading for 9M96 & 9M96D. So up to 16 missiles per TEL.

[HVAA]

This request only asks about the Russian 8 Tel system from 2020 onwards. Elsewhere I have struck out to this point with usable evidence by the devs, so will likely have to revist it when it exists. I guess I am asking for a 'new' S-400 system (SA-21) based on the SA-21a/b 2017 date, with all the missiles listed as possible loads.

[HVAA]

Finally, I have a clear image of a site for SA-21 with the Type IV TELS showing both big tubes plus small ones and one with 4 clusters of 4 tubes for 16 missiles (9M96) on the TELS. There appear to be at least 4 Type IV TELS, a couple of Type I and two I cant identify as they are under tarpaulins. Also evident is the Gravestone TER and the Cheeseboard TAR. There is good GE history at this site and it appears that the TELS have been there for at least a year, although the radars were initially on TETs.

[bostonmyk]

https://github.com/PygmalionOfCyprus/cmo-db-requests/issues/90

[HVAA]

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/air-defence-systems/air-defense-systems-and-mounts/s-400-triumf/

Clearly states that this is available with 9M96D, Mod 2 and 3 Gargoyle and Grendel (or whatever you want to call it, but Grendel is it's reporting name). If this source is good enough from some rather dubious (glossy brochure) claims on other systems then surely it's good enough to get this system fully sorted. The precedence and code is in the game with the Mk 41 VLS, so it should be relatively easy to add the full load of missiles to the system which is now mature.