Open nuk92 opened 2 years ago
Oh God, not again 😄
I think this looks like a good, fun proposal for an interesting aircraft. I believe the Iskra defensive aids suite was to be based on SPECTRA, in addition to all of the other Rafale tech transfer. Just a couple of minor questions about loadout choices:
I fully anticipated this reaction :sweat_smile: It won't push the game over the brink this time you'll see :smile:
It might have been. The system was supposed to be fully automatic and launch flares when the maws went off. The jammer was a noise and pulse jammer. Supposedly there's a functional model of the rwr or some early prototype hiding somewhere in Slovenia. They even mention that the name SO-2 was only chosen because there was already a (rather simple) SO-1 RWR. The SO-2 wasn't an improved version or one generation ahead but three generations ahead as they say. Tech transfer might be the right term. What's really interesting is that the company EM systems (iirc) built an aircraft elint pod which is controled from a ground control station. A concept that is strikingly similar to the VRTIO pod. Interestingly enough the advanced EW suite of the Kotor (and Yugo Koni) class frigate was developed by EM systems.
Yes it would have used existing weapons, I'll expand the loadout list and add what makes sense when I have the time. (Higher-ups wanted to certify S-5 pods for the MiG-29, they insisted, this should tell you something about Yugo AF high command :woozy_face: )
I'll have to think this through. With the way how visual recon works in CMO the Orao's Vinten pods really pale in comparison to targeting pods. Perhaps another pod is mentioned somewhere.
That's a good question. If money wasn't an issue they wouldn't bother buying the Super 530. But early on there would have been a lack of MICA missiles which is what I want to reflect in the loadout options. But I'll add MICA strike loadouts to the list. I understand that no one in their right mind would send brand new fighter jets on a strike mission but withhold advanced a-a missiles and risk them being shot down on day one.
Actually they wanted to purchase the AGM-65E and some LGBs for the J-22 in case they managed to purchase and integrate a targeting pod into the modernised Orao. I just don't see that happening for the J-22.
Yes you're right. Two anti ship loadouts are too much. Also the RB 15F (the air launched one if I got the letter wrong) was just a guess. I'm going to remove it. The thought behind this was Sweden's and Yugoslavia's flourishing cooperation before the civil war. Oh how I would like to see a genuine document which weapons were included in the preliminary design project with Marcel Dassault... and this one Beyond 2000 episode. The Apache for example was included in this list. And only source No. 3 mentions this.
Sure I'll add the WGRD nostalgia loadout.
WRT the Super 530 and MICA problem, we could always ask for two instances of the aircraft, representing the capabilities at service entry with 530 and the capabilities after a few years with MICA and perhaps some of the other more advanced weapons that weren't planned for Orao and therefore wouldn't already be in service. I think it's a fair request, after all we have ten different versions of the Super Tomcats to represent their possible weapon integration development paths.
Carrying the PDLCT and the ESM pod or Vinten pod simultaneously could be a good solution to the recce loadout issue?
DB Selector
DB3K
Baseline
No response
Hypothetical
Yes
Name
L-20 [Novi Avion / YU Supersonic / L-19] -- Yugoslavia, 2003 (Hypothetical)
Country
Yugoslavia
Service
Air Force
In Commission
Hypothetical: late 90s planned, early 2000s more realistic guesstimation
Number in Service
No response
Length (m)
13.75
Wingspan (m)
8
Height (m)
4.87
Empty Weight (kg)
4500
Maximum Takeoff Weight (MTOW) (kg)
12160
Payload Weight (kg)
5000
Crew
1
Propulsion
1x SNECMA M88-2Y
Rate of Climb (ft/min)
54134
Service Ceiling (ft)
55775
Military/Afterburner Speed (kt)
600/1100
Cruise Speed (kt)
480
Supercruise
No
Ferry Range (nm)
-
Endurance (min)
No response
Takeoff / Landing Distance (m)
No response
Fuel Capacity (kg)
2940kg (3600l)
Sensors
1x RDW-2 PESA radar (Thomson CSF & Iskra) wip 1x Iskra SO-2 [RWR] 1x Iskra SO-2 [LWR] 1x Iskra SO-2 [MAWS] 1x AN/AVS-9 NVG
Mounts
1x 30mm Giat 30/M791B [125 rnds] Chaff and Flare Dispenser
Loadout Options
ferry loadout
recon loadout 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 1x AFIC Recon Pod (Vinten 880, Vinten 753A, ICLS-401) [Visual, IRLS] 1x PDLCT Pod 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 2x 1250 liter Drop Tank
elint loadout 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 1x VRTIO-VK Pod [ELINT] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 2x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 4x Super R.530D 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x Super R.530D 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x Super R.530D 2x MICA EM 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 4x MICA EM 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R-73 4x MICA EM 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 2x Matra Apache (10x KRISS anti runway) 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 1x Matra Apache (10x KRISS anti runway) 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 2x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 2x RB 12 Penguin Mk3 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 4x RB 12 Penguin Mk3 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x RB 12 Penguin Mk3 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 2x AGM-65B 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 4x AGM-65B 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x AGM-65B 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 2x AGM-65D 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 4x AGM-65D 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x AGM-65D 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 2x AGM-65E 1x PDLCT Pod 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 4x AGM-65E 1x PDLCT Pod 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x AGM-65E 1x PDLCT Pod 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 2x BGL-400 LGB 1x PDLCT Pod 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 4x BGL-400 LGB 1x PDLCT Pod 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x BGL-400 LGB 1x PDLCT Pod 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 2x BGL-1000 Arcole LGB 1x PDLCT Pod 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 1x BGL-1000 Arcole LGB 1x PDLCT Pod 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 2x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 6x BL.755 No.1 CB 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 4x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 12x BL.755 No.1 CB 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x BL.755 No.1 CB 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 6x Durandal 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 4x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 12x Durandal 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x Durandal 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 6x FAB-250 M79 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 4x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 12x FAB-250 M79 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x FAB-250 M79 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 6x FAB-250 M79 [Retarded] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 4x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 12x FAB-250 M79 [Retarded] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x FAB-250 M79 [Retarded] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 6x Mk82 500lb 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 4x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 12x Mk82 500lb 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x Mk82 500lb 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 6x Mk82 500lb Snake Eye 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 4x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 12x Mk82 500lb Snake Eye 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x Mk82 500lb Snake Eye 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 6x OFAB-250-275 Frag 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 4x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 12x OFAB-250-275 Frag 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x OFAB-250-275 Frag 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 6x OFAB-250-275TU Frag [Retarded] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 4x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 12x OFAB-250-275TU Frag [Retarded] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x OFAB-250-275TU Frag [Retarded] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks -2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 6x RAB-250 M91 Prefragmented Airburst 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 4x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 12x RAB-250 M91 Prefragmented Airburst 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks -2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x RAB-250 M91 Prefragmented Airburst 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 6x FAB-275 M91 FAE [Retarded] Proximity Fuze 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 4x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 12x FAB-275 M91 FAE [Retarded] Proximity Fuze 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(3 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x FAB-275 M91 FAE [Retarded] Proximity Fuze 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(2 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 4x FAB-575 M91 FAE [Retarded] Proximity Fuze 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(2 bombs on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x FAB-575 M91 FAE [Retarded] Proximity Fuze 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x FAB-575 M91 FAE [Retarded] Proximity Fuze 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 40x S-8KOM 80mm Rocket [HEAT+FRAG] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 80x S-8KOM 80mm Rocket [HEAT+FRAG] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 40x S-8KOM 80mm Rocket [HEAT+FRAG] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(2 pods on SN-3-100 racks - 2x 60kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 16x BR-128 M74 128mm Rocket [HE] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(2 pods on SN-3-100 racks - 4x 60kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 32x BR-128 M74 128mm Rocket [HE] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(2 pods on SN-3-100 racks - 2x 60kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 16x BR-128 M74 128mm Rocket [HE] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(2 pods on SN-3-100 racks - 2x 60kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 16x BR-128 M80 128mm Rocket [HEAT] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(2 pods on SN-3-100 racks - 4x 60kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 32x BR-128 M80 128mm Rocket [HEAT] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(2 pods on SN-3-100 racks - 2x 60kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 16x BR-128 M80 128mm Rocket [HEAT] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(2 mines on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x MICA EM (optional) 4x Mine [AM-500] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x 1250 liter Drop Tank
(2 mines on SN-3-250 racks - 2x 80kg extra weight for racks) 2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 6x Mine [AM-500] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 1x Drop Tank
2x R.550 Magic 2 Mk2 2x Mine [AM-500] 1x Iskra SO-2 [DECM Pod] 3x 1250 liter Drop Tank
Comms/Datalinks
UHF/VHF Radio [unsecure] UHF Radio [secure] MICA Command Datalink
Aircraft Codes
Supermanouverability, Fly-by-Wire, Night Navigation/Attack (Incl. Bomb, Rocket Delivery), Bombsight - Advanced Navigation (INS/GPS)
Comments
thrust to weight ratio Novi Avion: 9.4 N/kg
This is purely a fun hypo unit for what-if scenarios since some planes like the Aurora can already be found in DB3K. Some might know it as L-19 from Wargame Red Dragon. The NA's designation would most likely have been L-20 since Yugoslavia planned to purchase the MiG-29S (9-13) during the early 90s after it purchased one squadron of MiG-29s (9-12) (designated as L-18 by the airforce) in 1987. I'm trying to make this a realistic as possible.
NA, Novi Avion also known as Yu Supersonic was the project name for a hypothetical 4th gen supersonic multirole aircraft which was proposed by Yugoslavia in 1983. By 1986 two seperate contracts for preliminary design projects were formed with BAe and AMD-BA (Dassault). The idea was to design, build and market the aircraft in cooperation with BAe or Dassault. By 1991 the Mini Rafale airframe was chosen which would have been powered by one Snecma M88 engine (proposed M88Y version with more thrust). One functional glass cockpit was built by 1989/1990 with 3 MFDs, HUD, HOTAS and voice control for non-critical display/cockpit functions. This cockpit was featured in one lost episode (aired 1989 - 1990) of the Australian television series Beyond 2000 and the voice control was demonstrated. The fly by wire system was tested with one experimental J-22H Orao. The multi-threat detection and warning system was supposed to be developed by the Yugoslav company Iskra, the G-J band jammer was planned by Yugoslavia (included in a fiscal report for mil development programs between 1985 and 1991, no designation mentioned) while the RDW-2 radar was a cooperation of Iskra and Thomson CSF. The loadout shown here is a combination of weapons which were allready in Yugoslav service, planned for the Yu Supersonic or planned for the modernised Orao. Assumptions had to be made for the IR targeting pod and LGBs (most probable models). Some of the data is subject to change in the coming weeks and month.
Sources
Vazduhoplovna tehnologija SFRJ uoči raspada države, Sava Pustinja, Belgrade 2017
https://vazduhoplovnetradicijesrbije.rs/index.php/clanak/32-novi-avion
https://vazduhoplovnetradicijesrbije.rs/index.php/clanak/640-p-sh