SITREP: China Review

[PygmalionOfCyprus]

With DB 504 now sent off to production, I wanted to share some info and actively involve everyone in one of our biggest projects yet.

What's Happening

DB 504 contains the opening volley of a major, rivet-counting review of China's PLA (and paramilitaries). This is a multi-month project which has already consumed hundreds of hours of independent research and review, including commercial satellite and image analysis.

In 504, we completed our internal research review and (mostly) completed our DB review of the PLAN: every single Chinese ship in the DB was ripped out and completely rebuilt. We also tried to add every vessel in service since 2008, excepting things like tugboats; while the China review will be generally focused on contemporary platforms, we felt 2008 was appropriate for the PLAN for historical reasons. Anything related to China is sure to contain errors, but we believe the PLAN in the DB is now mostly in line with professional consensus. We hope to maintain this standard as we move on to other branches of the PLA.

The Plan

The sheer scope of the project means it is not realistic for us to complete this review in a single cycle. As a result, we wanted to post our tentative plan and progress here so you all can follow along with our work and plan your research, ticket submissions, etc. accordingly.

This is only a tentative plan; our intent is to leave wiggle room to focus on other priorities, such as non-China tickets. Plans may change.

Parenthesized dates (e.g. "(1998-)") indicate service/dept. creation dates. Bracketed dates (e.g. "[~2008+]") indicate the year from which we will conduct our review. Platforms outside these dates already in the DB will be reviewed, but missing legacy platforms will not be added. Where no bracketed date is provided, assume [2023-4].

DB 504: Initial PLAN

• [x] PLAN [~2008+] *Due to the holiday break, we were not able to complete the submarine force; this will be finished in 505.

DB 505: Maritime Mop-Up

• [x] Coast Guard (2013-) [2013+]
• [x] Maritime Safety Administration (1998-)
• [x] Maritime Militia

DB 506: Here There Be Dragons

• [x] PLANAF
• [x] PLAAF

DB 507: The Long March

• [x] PLAGF
• [x] PLANMC
• [ ] People's Police
• [ ] People's Armed Police (PAP)

DB 508: The One Place That Hasn't Been Corrupted By Capitalism

• [ ] Second Artillery / PLARF (2016-)
• [ ] PLASSF SSD/ASF (2016-)

What Can I Do?

For users in want of a research project, we'd love to have you as our vanguard. In other words, as we complete reviews of each branch, we want you to try your darndest to find errors. No nitpick is too small: we are holding ourselves to an extremely high standard.

We strongly recommend that users not submit tickets about platforms not yet covered by our own review. For example, if we have not yet completed a review of the PLAAF, it is probably not valuable to spend time compiling/submitting tickets about problems in PLAAF aircraft: we will likely catch most of these issues ourselves. If you have already completed such research, it may be best to sit on it until we complete our review, then check our work against yours.

Of course, this project will not be all-consuming. As mentioned above, we hope to also focus on other priorities: for example, we have also been working through the backlog of old Mantis tickets from the pre-Github days (this is part of why progress on the Github has temporarily slowed -- we're still closing tickets, just untracked legacy ones). If China's not your thing and you'd rather not participate in this review, you can of course continue to post unrelated tickets.

Thanks to those who have already reached out to help, and good luck to those joining the fight! Trust no source, only your own eyes...

[tbrandon517]

Chuckling giddily...

[HunterDNiu]

San Min Chu I, Our aim shall be To build a free land, World peace be our stand LEad on comrades, Vanguard ye are Hold fast your aim, By sun and star Be earnest and brave, Your country to save One heart, one soul, One mind one goal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvVRecQrHpU

[LuigiP57]

Looks like my work is done for now. Maybe it's time to look at changing something else.

[claudejdev]

Great work DB team! 💪🧠 I look forward to being amazed by your research and humbly help hammer whatever may have slipped through the net.

As a side note, I recently acquired hundreds of digital Chinese military magazine issues dating back to 2009. Unfortunately, I cannot read Chinese, and I cannot find an index of articles. Going through them all is time-consuming and tedious. If you would like to help identify articles of interest for the database or even submit reports based on what you have read, please contact me on the forum or on Discord.

Best wishes to all the good people around here! Cheers

[LuigiP57]

Excuse me, I noticed that the PLAAF in the game seems to lack the variety of precision-guided munitions. Will you add more PGM loadouts to PLAAF assets in your plans?

The PLAAF is so secretive about precision-guided munitions that we may only get some information from a few export products (thanks to the Zhuhai Airshow).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LT_PGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS_PGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FT_PGB https://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/search/label/missile https://www.globalsecurity.org/military//world//china//gb.htm

[HunterDNiu]

Excuse me, I noticed that the PLAAF in the game seems to lack the variety of precision-guided munitions. Will you add more PGM loadouts to PLAAF assets in your plans?

The PLAAF is so secretive about precision-guided munitions that we may only get some information from a few export products (thanks to the Zhuhai Airshow).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LT_PGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS_PGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FT_PGB https://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/search/label/missile https://www.globalsecurity.org/military//world//china//gb.htm

JH-7 has extensive PGM loadouts for reference.

[LuigiP57]

Excuse me, I noticed that the PLAAF in the game seems to lack the variety of precision-guided munitions. Will you add more PGM loadouts to PLAAF assets in your plans? The PLAAF is so secretive about precision-guided munitions that we may only get some information from a few export products (thanks to the Zhuhai Airshow). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LT_PGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS_PGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FT_PGB https://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/search/label/missile https://www.globalsecurity.org/military//world//china//gb.htm

JH-7 has extensive PGM loadouts for reference.

Do you think more SDB weapon loadouts need to be added to the PLAAF? This Chinese-made GBU-39/53/SPEAR 3-like weapon seems interesting. It can be interchanged with a variety of guidance modes, which gives it a powerful multi-purpose capability.

https://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2012/11/cm-506kg-small-diameter-bomb-sdb.html#google_vignette

I have only seen the GJ-11 series in the database carrying the FT-7 SDB. Maybe we can have more SDB platforms? Despite the PLAAF's low profile.

[LuigiP57]

There is also the CS/BBM2 SDB II, which is said to be capable of being carried by the J-10, JH-7 and FC-1/JF-17.

https://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2014/11/csbbm2-100-kg-chinese-small-diameter.html

Dear me, China's precision-guided munitions are quite diverse, do we need a special topic to summarize information related to them?

[HunterDNiu]

I would expect to see them address along with their delivery platforms

[PygmalionOfCyprus]

@LuigiP57

Excuse me, I noticed that the PLAAF in the game seems to lack the variety of precision-guided munitions. Will you add more PGM loadouts to PLAAF assets in your plans?

@HunterDNiu

I would expect to see them address along with their delivery platforms

HunterDNiu is correct. We typically handle loadouts and associated weapons with the aircraft that carry them. The trick will be figuring out what's actually in service...lots of things go on display in China, less actually make it onto a wing...

Naval weapons / sensors will get a dedicated stat-pass, too, though there wasn't time to address that with the initial PLAN review. My intention is mostly to handle weapons, sensors, etc. "as they come," but I suspect that we'll end up carving out a few weeks just to drill down on those specifically.

[LuigiP57]

@PygmalionOfCyprus

One more question: When you about to review the PLAAF equipment, are you going to include in your plans the addition of Hypothetical platforms such as JH-XX, H-20 and Dark Sword UCAV?

If not, when can I submit the relevant tickets that will not disrupt your plans too much?

Thanks.

[tksfpj]

@PygmalionOfCyprus

If one DB request is added to the milestones,(ex: The great wall of tickets) will that request be applied in the next update?

[PygmalionOfCyprus]

If one DB request is added to the milestones,(ex: The great wall of tickets) will that request be applied in the next update?

It will (probably) be handled during the appropriate cycle for its annex. For example, a PLAAF ticket would likely be handled for 506.

[Aestas-Vivax]

According to SIPRI, there are inaccuracies regarding the missile loadout of Chinese S-400, where they are only supposed to have 48N6 and 9M96 in their units, and not the 400 km range missile.

Would this be rectified, or should there be a ticket submitted.

[HunterDNiu]

Please go with it. Would be of interest if it’s a greater issue emcompassimg multiple end users regarding SA-21s.

[PygmalionOfCyprus]

@Aestas-Vivax definitely submit a ticket.

[Prmise909]

I am very interested in DB constantly being updated. However, there are many tickets for the current aircraft loadout, and some of them are tactically useful for playing the scenario. As far as I feel, the processing of the aircraft loadout ticket seems to be delayed. I hope this problem will be resolved quickly, too. Thank you for the efforts of the DB team

[Aestas-Vivax]

No 406N missile launch photo in China

[LuigiP57]

@PygmalionOfCyprus @Jkryos Evidence of Chinese Navy & Air Force CEC capabilities https://twitter.com/Yuuno_G4312/status/1765350266298347753

2903

[HunterDNiu]

More like target cueing to me. "The AEW sent coordinates of a low flying ASCM to a surface combatant, the surface combatant quickly organized air and missile defense utilizing the target information delivered by the AEW, achieving 'searched by A, engaged by B'." Another term, “ fired by A, guided by B” has been used to describe CEC in PLA terminology.

[LuigiP57]

H-20 coming soon, by deputy commander of PLAAF https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202403/1308604.shtml https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-b-21-raider-xian-h-20-stealth-bomber-coming-soon-209973

[Siegemiester]

H-20 coming soon, by deputy commander of PLAAF https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202403/1308604.shtml https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-b-21-raider-xian-h-20-stealth-bomber-coming-soon-209973

this will be interesting, but I have a feeling it will be many years before we get any specs on the H20 even when we have a pictures of it flying

[LuigiP57]

H-20 coming soon, by deputy commander of PLAAF https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202403/1308604.shtml https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-b-21-raider-xian-h-20-stealth-bomber-coming-soon-209973

this will be interesting, but I have a feeling it will be many years before we get any specs on the H20 even when we have a pictures of it flying

But this does not prevent it from becoming a HYPOTHETICAL unit, as the esteemed @PygmalionOfCyprus once said:

I would be a little bit more cautious about things like the H-20. The extent of my knowledge on that particular program goes no further than the Wikipedia article, so I don't know how reliably we can count on it entering service, but if I had a nickel for every STEALTH BOMBER THAT CAN THREATEN AMERICA supposedly DUE TO ENTER SERVICE THIS YEAR I'd be able to buy one of my own. If we have reason to believe it's truly likely to emerge for real then we can consider giving it a placeholder. Of course, in cases where we aren't sure of imminent deployment but still want to add it because it creates an interesting capability/problem we can always go the good ol' route of adding something as a hypothetical.

[PygmalionOfCyprus]

I've just passed 506 to the team, so expect that...sometime. Hopefully soon. 😅

We're mostly on track. The PLAAF/PLANAF review is effectively done, at least in terms of aircraft and major weapons. We've found that even for China, aircraft are unusually difficult to find info for, so I fully expect/intend to be doing more work with sensors, loadouts, weapons, etc. as we either figure out more weapons that are actually in-service (random air show products don't count) or as people provide feedback on the changes we've made so far. We'll be grateful for your eyes, especially after 506 releases. Moreso even than the PLAN I think the air forces are going to have to be a "living product," so to speak, but if nothing else this should put us at a much better baseline.

I expect the ground forces will be less exhausting, so with the extra time I hope to be able to really dig into a bunch of non-China tickets for 507, and hopefully start clearing this ticket backlog...as well as potentially working on some schema goodies I think people will like very much. 😋

[LuigiP57]

@PygmalionOfCyprus By the way, since 507 is complete, why don't we have the 506 yet?

[PygmalionOfCyprus]

I know, it's frustrating. There's been a lot of roadblocks and problems with this release independent of the DB.

To make a long story short, CMO has a ton of bugs right now, and it's been all hands on deck trying to fix those and create a build we feel comfortable releasing to the public. It's getting better, and we're on the tail end. The good news is that we'll probably just release 507 and 506 together, so you'll get the 507 changes mostly on-schedule.

Speaking of, we're mostly on track with the China review. The DB team had business travel for nearly half the cycle and fell a little behind, so we still need to do a little mop-up with the PLAGF (mostly in terms of loadouts for the attack helicopters), but the majority of facilities and equipment should now be in there. I expect we'll be able to do both that and the rocket force stuff for 508 and then be done with the project! Or, at least, move into a perpetual observe-and-maintain phase as we turn our focus to other projects.

[LuigiP57]

I know, it's frustrating. There's been a lot of roadblocks and problems with this release independent of the DB.

To make a long story short, CMO has a ton of bugs right now, and it's been all hands on deck trying to fix those and create a build we feel comfortable releasing to the public. It's getting better, and we're on the tail end. The good news is that we'll probably just release 507 and 506 together, so you'll get the 507 changes mostly on-schedule.

Speaking of, we're mostly on track with the China review. The DB team had business travel for nearly half the cycle and fell a little behind, so we still need to do a little mop-up with the PLAGF (mostly in terms of loadouts for the attack helicopters), but the majority of facilities and equipment should now be in there. I expect we'll be able to do both that and the rocket force stuff for 508 and then be done with the project! Or, at least, move into a perpetual observe-and-maintain phase as we turn our focus to other projects.

Hats off to you! You guys are such a group of hard-working and intelligent people. '_' >

[LuigiP57]

@PygmalionOfCyprus Sorry to bother you, but just to confirm, will your DB team add a series of Chinese BMD systems, similar to THAAD and SM-3, such as HQ-19/26/29? If so, then I don't need to submit tickets in the "Addition" category. I only need to consider upgrading them, based on OSINT data and analysis.

[HunterDNiu]

@PygmalionOfCyprus Sorry to bother you, but just to confirm, will your DB team add a series of Chinese BMD systems, similar to THAAD and SM-3, such as HQ-19/26/29? If so, then I don't need to submit tickets in the "Addition" category. I only need to consider upgrading them, based on OSINT data and analysis.

4477

I need more information on mid range kinetic and sea based mid course BMD weapons.

[LuigiP57]

@PygmalionOfCyprus Sorry to bother you, but just to confirm, will your DB team add a series of Chinese BMD systems, similar to THAAD and SM-3, such as HQ-19/26/29? If so, then I don't need to submit tickets in the "Addition" category. I only need to consider upgrading them, based on OSINT data and analysis.

4477 I need more information on mid range kinetic and sea based mid course BMD weapons.

In fact, I am in the same predicament, we can only make assumptions based on limited information. However, I have greater doubts about the existence of sea-based BMD systems.

[LuigiP57]

I've even found something more interesting, which seems to be some sort of Glide Phase Intercepter but based on wave rider: https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/t/pla-anti-air-missile-sam-systems.7266/page-96

[LuigiP57]

Chinese THAAD/ER (already in service obviously): https://x.com/Nickatgreat1220/status/1591062365315141632 https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/t/pla-anti-air-missile-sam-systems.7266/page-82