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Realm667 / WolfenDoom

"WolfenDoom - Blade of Agony" | Important: This is only meant for development and testing purposes. You are NOT ALLOWED to use material from this repository for your own projects. Important: This repository is for development and testing purposes, you are NOT ALLOWED to use the copyrighted material for your own projects without our permission!
http://boa.realm667.com
253 stars 27 forks source link

Edgy content #782

Closed madame-rachelle closed 3 years ago

madame-rachelle commented 3 years ago

Let me preface this by saying that while I act only for myself and am expressing my own views of certain opinions that were expressed about this mod on Doomworld. I happen to agree at least partially with some of the concerns that were raised.

The two posts that are relevant in question (that I have drawn quotes from, particularly) are here:

Yeah, there are definitely Holocaust zombies. Although Scuba got them to remove any explicit mention of the concentration camp prisoners being Jewish, the veil is pretty thin. The "Final Solution" is mentioned in in-game documents. The concentration camp is extremely realistic and graphic, complete with furnaces and mass graves and iirc gas chambers and everything. The prisoners have Jewish or Polish names (one of them is named after Itzhak Stern). There's a projector slideshow playing in one Nazi command office that shows what looks like actual footage of Dr. Mengele (who appears in the game as a boss enemy) experimenting on real concentration camp prisoners (or maybe it's something else, but it definitely looks like there is potentially real historical (Holocaust-related?) gore in a lot of the images in the game). It's bad enough even before you realize the concentration camp victims are being turned into a zombie horde.

In Paris in E1, there's a big exhibition of probably-historical but really messed up racist images of Jewish people. It's one thing to put swastikas in a game full of Nazis to shoot, but it feels different to plaster that kind of fucked up content into a game as background lore, especially a game this cartoony and generally grindhousey. Iirc, at least one of these images, or a similar one, continues to appear in later episodes. All in all, the game leans really hard into the realistic Nazi propaganda, and I'm not sure why they felt that was necessary. Wolfenstein 3D didn't go there.

There's a character in the game who's a "tribute" to Randi Heit, a prominent transwoman in the Doom community who created ZDoom. In the process, she is deadnamed and misgendered. The character named after her is also a shitfaced drunk who jokes about his huge dong. Other tribute characters fared no better, to be fair -- the guy named after Enjay is an emaciated prisoner shitting in a concentration camp outhouse. I can only pray Torm never sees fit to homage me.

The one female boss in the game has her breasts gratuitously pop out when she dies.

Everybody knows they're taking their sweet time to remove the Master Race difficulty setting

in addition, the lowest difficulty setting is named League of German Girls, which is in character for 90s homage but still pretty obviously misogynistic.

A historical anti-Japanese racial slur appears in a newspaper headline as well.

Sexism for luls is not okay in an video game and I'm tired of pretending it is.

madame-rachelle commented 3 years ago

Tormentor I don't know what the deal is with Realm667 if you are interested in continuing to host it or not, but if you plan to take it offline can you at least allow folks to take a backup of it, please? There is no sense in punishing people who are completely innocent of this situation who took no part in this, or the threads over at Doomworld.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

Sorry for being Off Topic here, but since the Realm667 is down, probably related to this incident, can I ask you to at let us have access to the Repository files in case you decide to cloe down your website, please?

It works for me actually, I got a note from the hoster (all-inkl.com) that they moved the server for this page so I guess that was the downtime. I am not gonna close this site just because of the drama that happened. That wouldn’t be fair for everyone else NOT involved.

Cacodemon345 commented 3 years ago

Yes please, at least allow others to backup your repo.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

Yes please, at least allow others to backup your repo.

Maybe you want to inform the people outside this issue so the accusations finally stop 🤦🏻‍♂️

DoomJedi commented 3 years ago

"meaning they are obviously concerned and on the look out for it" Don't know if it's more sad or funny, such claim. There is nothing obvious about the link you're doing between our quote and your deduction. It's not true in any way or sense.

You have to understand - we took those concerns (logical for such camp level (sure after Sonder drama), or any type of pixelated nudity or whatever other claims are) upfront, to prevent controversy before it happens (while staying true to the core of our vision). So we compromised about some issues (that we felt right to give up on) before it was released to the public and took our own concerns - and testers feedbacks- into account PRIOR to mod's release. This is important to state - we did had development discussions on those issues, it's natural in such development. Concerns were raised (and discussed in detail, both publicly and privately), and valid ones - were addressed/altered before release (based on Sonder drama, feedbacks and common sense).

We stand by what was eventually released (and is part of actual mod/maps). For what was left in the mod.

Dynamo128 commented 3 years ago

You misunderstand, doomjedi. Your previous comment, unequivocally, stated that if there were really such problems with BoA, you would find something about it by googling "BoA controversy". All I did was point out that doing so might actually start to yield results if this shows up on twitter, youtube and such. That's all. I am not doubting that you vetted stuff during development or anything of the sort, I'm literally just trying to do you guys a favor by warning you of what's going on, I didn't criticize the development of the mod in the slightest. Even if you tried to take care of controversies before they happened, evidently, they can still happen after the fact, as this whole thing shows.

I hope you understand, and best regards.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

Even if all we do is take the 3.0 build and clean up the extra files in the package, change the skill setting name, delete a few sprites/textures, and maybe (and I only say 'maybe' because the character in the game has existed for over 6 years) rename Barkeeper Randi to something ridiculous to make sure no one confuses him with Marisa, that would take care of a lot of the problems.

After the recent events, I agree with that. I just wonder how we can take care of such a 3.0.1 release now that we are in the middle of the development for 3.1 - how is this technically doable? Regarding Randy, I contacted Marisa via ZDoom forums and mail but didn't get a reply yet - should we wait on that or just change the name?

Cacodemon345 commented 3 years ago

I think changing the name would be a good idea.

DoomJedi commented 3 years ago

I agree, there is shitstorm that might be starting to take...gears. Sadly. Unjustified, unfair - at least from my point of view. We did everything that was reasonable and of common sense to prevent it, but if it happens - I guess it means it was unavoidable, sadly. You can't please all, never. They have the right to be/feel offended, it's a right of every person, but there is simple solution - don't play it. Don't download it. It's all okay. BoA is a free mod of volunteer download that is not imposed on anyone, and it mostly played by retro gamers. Every person is entitled for his/her/their feelings and to make decision about themselves regarding this mod and any mod, or game or other artform.

The problem starts the moment they say art needs to be censored for them - or removed - even out of access of people (most BoA players) who are not offended, have same right not to feel offended by our mod and so the right to have access to it, download it and play it for their amusement.

All I wanted to state that we NEVER intended to cause any controversy and even acted to prevent it before it can happen, based on common sense and prior feedbacks. Maybe I just misunderstood your " on the look out for it", maybe it's my english not being a native language. It seemed you are claiming we were looking/hoping for a controversy. If it's my misunderstanding - my apology.

Dynamo128 commented 3 years ago

It seemed you are claiming we were looking/hoping for a controversy. If it's my misunderstanding - my apology.

not at all, I was claiming the opposite, that you were trying to avoid it, and you were on the look out (as in, you were scanning for one in the hope of intercepting it and defusing it). I'm glad it was just a language misunderstanding and that we could clear it up :)

DoomJedi commented 3 years ago

"I just wonder how we can take care of such a 3.0.1 release now that we are in the middle of the development for 3.1 - how is this technically doable?" My thoughts this morning exactly. This is nearly impossible till 3.1

DoomJedi commented 3 years ago

It seemed you are claiming we were looking/hoping for a controversy. If it's my misunderstanding - my apology.

not at all, I was claiming the opposite, that you were trying to avoid it, and you were on the look out (as in, you were scanning for one in the hope of intercepting it and defusing it). I'm glad it was just a language misunderstanding and that we could clear it up :)

To be honest I wrote original reply without doing any google, I just assumed the way things are there.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

I have just taken down v3.0 until we have resolved these issues and prepared a v3.1 release. Details about it on this issue https://github.com/Realm667/WolfenDoom/issues/793 - let's focus on the "edgy content" here.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

As we are currently working on the changes and other issues have been opened, I can firmly close this.

One last word though: I would have never expected that something like this happens and I have to admit, that my reaction yesterday was very emotional. I should have thought about what words to use before writing them, but it's an emotional topic and it was simply not possible for me to sit and wait.

There are two things that made me feel like I felt:

Regarding Marisa, I do understand how things can be interpreted, and you can agree with what some people say and describe, the whole unfortunate setup makes this such a stupid situation. I am sorry that this could be interpreted like that but all I can say is that I am not a transphobic, there was no intention to discriminate Marisa or anyone else who wants to decide which gender to live with.

Regarding the Camp, we all spent a lot of time to take care of the sensitive topic, not being disrespectful, not being rude, we never meant to create a sense of gloryfing the World War II, the cruelties that happened there or that it is a political thinking that we share. The whole mod was meant to be an entertaining journey in the spirit of Wolfenstein games. If someone is feeling offended now, I am sorry, and it was not what we wanted to do.

madame-rachelle commented 3 years ago

I think some people might think I am a little too naive when I say this, but after having taken on various positions of responsibility both in and outside of Doom, I've learned one very simple and basic universal truth about people: Everyone is just trying the best they can. While it is true that there are people who go out of their way to harm others, they are extremely rare - most people really just aren't that way. Most people are just trying their best. Most people simply don't know. Sometimes, if you give people a chance, they may surprise you. And it goes both ways.

I hope that you do not fault me for my part in this, I simply was trying to do the right thing. And I appreciate you trying to do likewise.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

I absolutely do not fault you @madame-rachelle - you have always been very polite and doing it the right way. With your help and the other teammates, I am currently trying to turn things into a better light.

MuadDib90 commented 3 years ago

I absolutely do not fault you @madame-rachelle - you have always been very polite and doing it the right way. With your help and the other teammates, I am currently trying to turn things into a better light.

I second that. You @madame-rachelle do seem to be mature in manners; unlike some others. Thank you. Unfortunately it is not a matter of course these days...

wallabra commented 3 years ago

"I just wonder how we can take care of such a 3.0.1 release now that we are in the middle of the development for 3.1 - how is this

Just do a Git branch. Checkout the 3.0 tag, branch into v3.0.1-changed, then once those are done release them and git merge them into master (or whatever branch has the 3.1 development in it).

I'm not gonna weight in on the controversy. I felt like others here, especially Rachel, already said enough about it. But I definitely expected you to know some version control. Not that it matters that much, either, but I just mean to point out that Git's functionality is underused and underappreciated :p

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

The idea is good and, well, obvious, but there IIRC were some almost-critical bugs that were fixed after 3.0, it would be quite a task to reincorporate the fixes for them properly into BoA.

AFADoomer commented 3 years ago

It might be easiest to branch from current version and manually remove some of the incomplete new stuff... Achievements system, mainly.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

How far are we from a 3.1 release anyway?

AFADoomer commented 3 years ago

I don't know what would keep us from releasing essentially as-is... Achievements could be disabled (or completed - the functionality is there, just need some strings and graphics, and an overall display).

We can push some of the other fixes/wants to 3.2, I think. Should try to do a 3.1pre to beta testers if we can, due to the number of code changes.

Edit: There are still bugs in current dev version, but no breaking bugs that I am aware. If we plan to continue with a 3.2 release to take care of those, I think that's the best route.

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

@Tormentor667 Well, there's still quite a supply of bug reports (for example from @hawkwind3 from the most recent ones), also the achievements system should be expanded and tested, most of the translations should be proofread, 'sprite improvements' should be finished, then also the balancing of course...

MuadDib90 commented 3 years ago

Btw I am banned from commenting on issue where Wolfenburger was banned (not that it is a big deal...) I am ready to proofread (Czech part) as much as I can if all changes has been applied.

You are not banned from that thread, posting in the issue was just limited from people who do not have write access to the repository. --N00b

Leonard2 commented 3 years ago

Just got a word from someone that I want to share with you:

...

Just uh, dropping by to say that I will stand by what this person has said, 100% The "normal human being" part especially hits home for me.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

I don't know what would keep us from releasing essentially as-is... Achievements could be disabled (or completed - the functionality is there, just need some strings and graphics, and an overall display).

We can push some of the other fixes/wants to 3.2, I think. Should try to do a 3.1pre to beta testers if we can, due to the number of code changes.

Edit: There are still bugs in current dev version, but no breaking bugs that I am aware. If we plan to continue with a 3.2 release to take care of those, I think that's the best route.

I like that approach and it feels right to me. So my suggeston is: Finish up what we can until this weekend, do 3.1pre beta version, organize some testing and one week later release 3.1 - is everyone okay with that?

Ozymandias81 commented 3 years ago

Sounds good.

wallabra commented 3 years ago

The idea is good and, well, obvious, but there IIRC were some almost-critical bugs that were fixed after 3.0, it would be quite a task to reincorporate the fixes for them properly into BoA.

You can branch from the commit that fixes such bugs instead, then.

Or even, you could manually pick the changes in these bugfix commits into patch format, and then apply this patch as the first commit of a branch off 3.0. Then you'd have basically 3.0, with your bug fixes :)

And then, when you're done with 3.0.1, merging into 3.1 head will most likely (read: hopefully) ignore those patches in the first commit in the 3.0.1 branch, as they already exist in 3.0.1 anyway.

wallabra commented 3 years ago

Just got a word from someone that I want to share with you:

Greetings! I believe we never really talked and you most likely have absolutely no idea who I am, nevertheless - I've always been an admirer of your work, and all the awesome things you did (and continue doing) for the community, and I'm writing this message in light of the emerging shitstorm re BoA in its current state. I realise that in a modern society gone awry and in this age of mass hysteria and double standards sticking to one's guns is quite an undertaking that requires courage and selflessness in a face of public shaming and condemnation, still - please be aware that there are people who support you and stay with you on the matter, even if only in the shadows and away from the flame war. If anything - starting polemic with all those fools is a lost cause that would feel like bathing in feces. To a normal adult human being everything in BoA is fine, some things are admittedly borderline questionable but in a game this B-movie-like it's nothing uncommon I believe, and I certainly saw no disrespect towards victims of the Nazis' crimes and genocidal policy or whatever, so the red line was never crossed. And in general - it's better to have a bit of cynicism and dark humor instead of another load of infantile liberal nonsense that's been all the rage these years. Divide et impera indeed, drive the public attention away from the real issues and towards the illusionary ones - and this is where they're going to channel their excessive toxicity and disappointment with this cruel and unjust world. While I'm at it - I'd also like to thank the team for adding the Soviets and thus not only acknowledging their role in the war (even if the war shown here is highly grotesque and hyperbolic) but also for not depicting them like raging red plague rats ruled by a bloody tyrant and followed by dreaded NKVD butchers slaughtering friend and foe alike. Seriously, thank you. So in the end - I sincerely wish you and the team fortitude to be able to withstand the storm of idiocy, and best of luck to you all. You are not alone, there are other reasonable people out there that play and enjoy the game, got an actual sense of humor and don't get distracted by nonexistent offences. Take care.

I definitely agree with that.

Although, is she aware of her cameo? I assume you told her about it. Just to be sure.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

I did not told her about it, no but she has already been removed anyway so the discussion is obsolete.

wallabra commented 3 years ago

That is fair and I understand what you mean. But it was the main reason you got mobbed on and banned from Doomworld, and if you asked her about it and she seemed fine about it, you could actually have some evidence to present Mordeth or Linguica so as to appeal the ban. (Although a screenshot would definitely be more credible than just copy-pasted text, just so people don't start thinking you wrote it yourself or something!)

Or, maybe it wasn't the reason for the ban, but it was the keg of gunpowder - your emotional and cautiousless reaction, whilst undertandable, must have been the spark to ignite it. Your situation is so lamentable and I just feel pity. I'll remain on neutral ground, but that whole debacle was sad to witness.