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Realm667 / WolfenDoom

"WolfenDoom - Blade of Agony" | Important: This is only meant for development and testing purposes. You are NOT ALLOWED to use material from this repository for your own projects. Important: This repository is for development and testing purposes, you are NOT ALLOWED to use the copyrighted material for your own projects without our permission!
http://boa.realm667.com
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Changes on "edgy and sensitive content" for Blade of Agony v3.1 #795

Closed Tormentor667 closed 3 years ago

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

After @madame-rachelle has posted this issue https://github.com/Realm667/WolfenDoom/issues/782 and after we've discussed a lot of things in there, I guess it's about time to create a list of things that we need to take care of for an upcoming reworked 3.1 release that covers these things.

Please add what hasn't been mentioned yet, feel free to suggest changes.

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

@Tormentor667 Point 4: I confirm, it's 'Camp Prisoner'/just 'Prisoner' translated into various languages. I did it with automatic tools, but googled the resulting words every time, and they did show up, so the quality of the translation should not be a problem.

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

There are still quite a lot genocide-related words in other languages (derived from the same Latin root, such as 'Genocidio'), I am trying to replace them properly right now.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

There are still quite a lot genocide-related words in other languages (derived from the same Latin root, such as 'Genocidio'), I am trying to replace them properly right now.

Thanks alot for that. Can you do the same with "Concentration Camp" > "Prison Camp"? I took care of "English" and "German"

DoomJedi commented 3 years ago

I won't fix the Boss as it's my vision and art and this is how I want it to be, do it yourself if you want to. I had enough of this shit. If you'll mad me further - I'll forbid you using that Boss in BoA at all. You can then ask CaptainJ to make you a new one.

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

@Tormentor667 I have done the required changes in all languages. (I did an exception for CREDITSM05, because that is a historical fact, not related to BoA's world in any way.) I can't give any guarantees that all the changes have correct grammar/spelling since this was a really HUGE work, but I was doing my best to acknowledge the rules of said languages, rechecking multiple times, googling word forms, etc. This way we won't need to wait for translators who have other things to do and have already moved from Blade of Agony. Re-checking by other developers would be definitely appreciated (@Ozymandias81, @MuadDib90). @MuadDib90 — I apologize that I did the Czech one myself and did not wait for you, I did it since there is really little time to wait now.

MuadDib90 commented 3 years ago

@Tormentor667 I have done the required changes in all languages. (I did an exception for CREDITSM05, because that is a historical fact, not related to BoA's world in any way.) I can't give any guarantees that all the changes have correct grammar/spelling since this was a really HUGE work, but I was doing my best to acknowledge the rules of said languages, rechecking multiple times, googling word forms, etc. This way we won't need to wait for translators who have other things to do and have already moved from Blade of Agony. Re-checking by other developers would be definitely appreciated (@Ozymandias81, @MuadDib90). @MuadDib90 — I apologize that I did the Czech one myself and did not wait for you, I did it since there is really little time to wait now.

@Username-N00b-is-not-available Be it this sensitive matter, I am not mad at you. Though I am glad you let me know, so I can look at it. Thank you.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

Just took care of the identifiers 7af3c0a3735e6ed0bad27b18a07714f5c880fc57

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

For launching the 3.0.1 release we need to know if there could be any problems with new features/fixes that have been added after 3.0 but not finished yet. @Ozymandias81, @AFADoomer, how many of them are currently present? For example, @Ozymandias81 said in commits that he needs to fix offsets of some sprites, and @AFADoomer's achievement system should probably be switched off for 3.0.1.

Talon1024 commented 3 years ago

Replacing "Genocide" with a less 40's connected term ("Carnage")

Is this really necessary? The word Genocide is not only used to refer to the Holocaust (a specific event), but was also used for the mass killings against the Tutsi people by the Hutu people in Rwanda, among other events. You can find the definition according to the United Nations here. If it is really important to avoid using that word, I would go with "Slaughter" or "Massacre" instead.

On the other hand, there's still the reference to Enjay being a guy relieving himself on a toilet in the prison camp. I would rather come up with a German name as a reference to the main character of Ferris Bueller's day off (Frederick Mueller?).

Rename "League of German Girls" difficulty setting (taken care of, "Warming-Up" now)

Why not "Can I play, Daddy?" as a reference to the original Wolfenstein 3D?

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

@Talon1024 For the first, you are right, but because of these origins it is also obviously connected with WWII; also, the work is already done, the genocide/Holocaust mentions were replaced (by me) (by Tormentor and me) with 'carnage' in English and 'massacre' in most other languages.

For the second one, all the prisoners were renamed to just 'Camp Prisoner'.

For the third one, it would be nice if we could replace all skill level names by Wolfenstein ones (to be consistent) — but we have five skill levels instead of four.

Talon1024 commented 3 years ago

replaced (by me) with 'carnage' in English and 'massacre' in most other languages

"Massacre" would make more sense in English. A sentence like "now that Hitler has ordered the Carnage" doesn't make sense. The word "Carnage" looks out-of-place to me.

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

OK, I'll replace it right now. Replaced (carnage was suggested for English by Tormentor, I did all languages except English and German)

ghost commented 3 years ago

I get the idea of censoring things but as a person of jewish background myself, why censor these things? We should have a censored and uncensored version. Because history and the evils created and committed by the national socialists workers party should be be recreated and exposed and told like a story. It's like how Slayer made "angel of death" it's not glorifying Mengele, it's showing a and telling a story of what kind of scum and rancid disgust he was. Why censor history in the name of the offended? We are not nazis. We are not "edgy" I know I am a literal nobody on this project and I only play tested, but censorship ruins things.

Thanks noob for the thumbs, love you man!

Another point to make, what are you guys afraid of? Some massive minority of voices? Someone that's making 20+ emails spamming their worried being the Karen or "concerned voice" I am sorry but we in no way glorified nazism, we got John Romero praising the mod and lending his hand to show it on twitter, the real wolfenstein games had ACTUAL CAMPS and torture scenes and murder on "undesirables" but you broke out the camp and blew it up. Torm, I beg and request you make 2 versions for the audience, at least give them the chance to have censored content if they feel uncomfortable. But those who wish for the whole pie, let them see it. It isn't just "carnage" it was a genocide, a genocide that the nazis tried to recreate from Hadrian when he abolished jews from Judea and the violence was insane.

The sexualized sprites, this is a 18+ game. Kids shouldn't be playing it (although they probably will because they do not care for warnings) which doesn't stop companies with their games. Ask cyberpunk2077!

The difficulties, really? Words, triggered people?

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

You are right in this, but sometimes we have to comply to the 'other side' no matter our beliefs and their righteousness. So much effort was sincerely put in this project over years by the developers, lots of playtesters like you and me did their job to report bugs... we absolutely do not want players to get repelled from the project on any occasion, and with the levels of shitstorm that happened yesterday and today BoA has definitely already lost a lot of potential players — would we want that to happen on a larger scale?

ghost commented 3 years ago

You are right in this, but sometimes we have to comply to the 'other side' no matter our beliefs and their righteousness. So much effort was sincerely put in this project over years by the developers, lots of playtesters like you and me did their job to report bugs... we absolutely do not want players to get repelled from the project on any occasion, and with the levels of shitstorm that happened yesterday and today BoA has definitely already lost a lot of potential players — would we want that to happen on a larger scale?

shitstorm? What like 10 angry randoms? I cannot find any youtube videos where someone on the level of "gmanlives" is dunking on the game. This is a extremely vocal minority. Extremely. We have to be Elon Musk and just say "fuck it" there is no compliance, what can they do? NOTHING! Actual jewish people worked on this GAME, DoomJedi, myself, many others I am sure! Who is this other side? Some random dudes or offended tumblr feminists that want history censored because the mere mention of a swastika causes their heart to pump over drive?

Doruk-Aksoy commented 3 years ago

You are right in this, but sometimes we have to comply to the 'other side' no matter our beliefs and their righteousness. So much effort was sincerely put in this project over years by the developers, lots of playtesters like you and me did their job to report bugs... we absolutely do not want players to get repelled from the project on any occasion, and with the levels of shitstorm that happened yesterday and today BoA has definitely already lost a lot of potential players — would we want that to happen on a larger scale?

shitstorm? What like 10 angry randoms? I cannot find any youtube videos where someone on the level of "gmanlives" is dunking on the game. This is a extremely vocal minority. Extremely. We have to be Elon Musk and just say "fuck it" there is no compliance, what can they do? NOTHING! Actual jewish people worked on this GAME, DoomJedi, myself, many others I am sure! Who is this other side? Some random dudes or offended tumblr feminists that want history censored because the mere mention of a swastika causes their heart to pump over drive?

Yea all of this that's happening right now is reminding me of the stupid shit during Ion Fury. The soap bottle OGAY... which then turned out to be a bunch of bullshit behind it too, all that effort and money gone to waste.

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

If we do not comply with their demands now, however unjustified some of them may be, the cesspool that the Doomworld Blade of Agony thread has become will continue to live and spread around sites and forums in the Internet. Remember how it started from just one moderator post expressing concerns, some of them legitimate, some maybe not from the developers' point of view, but look what it become a few posts later! Sequences of messages filled with rage, labelling Tormentor and the team as total assholes and Blade of Agony almost as Nazi propaganda. Can we live with this? Absolutely not. You are right that the Doomworld minority is exceptionally vocal, and this vocality often becomes really bad for their targets. We do not want to be their targets. When we remove the content that is inappropriate in their eyes, well, at least further attempts at attacking the developer team will not have any underlying reason. Not that they will stop completely, but at least the people who have doubts on whether the Blade of Agony team is 'good' or 'bad' in their eyes will see that the team did not intend to offend anyone.

By the way, this is offtopic, this issue is for tracking the progress made on the repository, I really hope the debate will not continue here anymore (for long at least). It would be better for everyone.

Tormentor667 commented 3 years ago

Another point to make, what are you guys afraid of? Some massive minority of voices? Someone that's making 20+ emails spamming their worried being the Karen or "concerned voice" I am sorry but we in no way glorified nazism, we got John Romero praising the mod and lending his hand to show it on twitter, the real wolfenstein games had ACTUAL CAMPS and torture scenes and murder on "undesirables" but you broke out the camp and blew it up. Torm, I beg and request you make 2 versions for the audience, at least give them the chance to have censored content if they feel uncomfortable. But those who wish for the whole pie, let them see it. It isn't just "carnage" it was a genocide, a genocide that the nazis tried to recreate from Hadrian when he abolished jews from Judea and the violence was insane.

You made very good points, really, and I want to thank you for that. But I also want to be briefly: What I fear isn't 10 people or more complaining about edgy content. What I fear is negative connections to the game and the german law that will change my personal private life . I am pretty sure that we made everything right - it's not a neo-nazi game, there is no discrimination, no racial hatred, we tried to be as sensitive as possible with all the problematic content that the WWII-scenario brings.

But am I 100% sure that I didn't miss anything? I am not, and I honestly don't want to end up in a law suite for little mistakes that I could have prevented. And that's what I currently want to take care of. I want to make it as "correct as possible" and avoid anything that interfers with my privacy.

ghost commented 3 years ago

If we do not comply with their demands now, however unjustified some of them may be, the cesspool that the Doomworld Blade of Agony thread has become will continue to live and spread around sites and forums in the Internet. Remember how it started from just one moderator post expressing concerns, some of them legitimate, some maybe not from the developers' point of view, but look what it become a few posts later! Sequences of messages filled with rage, labelling Tormentor and the team as total assholes and Blade of Agony almost as Nazi propaganda. Can we live with this? Absolutely not. You are right that the Doomworld minority is exceptionally vocal, and this vocality often becomes really bad for their targets. We do not want to be their targets. When we remove the content that is inappropriate in their eyes, well, at least further attempts at attacking the developer team will not have any underlying reason. Not that they will stop completely, but at least the people who have doubts on whether the Blade of Agony team is 'good' or 'bad' in their eyes will see that the team did not intend to offend anyone.

I can live with one random moron that nobody will listen to calling us nazis. Yes. I can legitimately listen to that. People are called nazis for making games about killing nazis, absolutely fucking disgusting. You take some random nobody that works a normal job like all of us seriously? What cucked out mentality is this dude? "spreads over the internet" annnnnnnnnnd? Would anyone take this man legitimately seriously? Because it looks like Romero himself sure loved our work and many upon thousands did. Bending the knee to 1 special interest group of overweight pink haired trolls in a discord isn't something you should ever do. Ever, and doing so is abhorrent to the work.

BTW I am not mad or hating you, I am just stressing over our work and what we did.

ghost commented 3 years ago

Another point to make, what are you guys afraid of? Some massive minority of voices? Someone that's making 20+ emails spamming their worried being the Karen or "concerned voice" I am sorry but we in no way glorified nazism, we got John Romero praising the mod and lending his hand to show it on twitter, the real wolfenstein games had ACTUAL CAMPS and torture scenes and murder on "undesirables" but you broke out the camp and blew it up. Torm, I beg and request you make 2 versions for the audience, at least give them the chance to have censored content if they feel uncomfortable. But those who wish for the whole pie, let them see it. It isn't just "carnage" it was a genocide, a genocide that the nazis tried to recreate from Hadrian when he abolished jews from Judea and the violence was insane.

You made very good points, really, and I want to thank you for that. But I also want to be briefly: What I fear isn't 10 people or more complaining about edgy content. What I fear is negative connections to the game and the german law that will change my personal private life . I am pretty sure that we made everything right - it's not a neo-nazi game, there is no discrimination, no racial hatred, we tried to be as sensitive as possible with all the problematic content that the WWII-scenario brings.

But am I 100% sure that I didn't miss anything? I am not, and I honestly don't want to end up in a law suite for little mistakes that I could have prevented. And that's what I currently want to take care of. I want to make it as "correct as possible" and avoid anything that interfers with my privacy.

Now this is a legitimate concern that I wanted to hear from you. This is something easily avoidable. Also a massive point to make, you've already made the game, it's to late to pull back now even if you did censor everything. It has swastikas too! Which need be censored by german law, we could easily make 2 versions and give the credit over to one of them to avoid lawsuite, this kind of thing happens.

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

@Wolfenburger

This is something easily avoidable

I think the team has doubts about this point (more generally about the private life, not the legal problems). I also have myself. If so much attention has been brought up, so much flame has been burnt during these two days, surely they must be up to something? We do not know how far some of them could go in an act of rage, and I'd rather not know, neither would Tormentor like anyone other in the team to know it. To experience such drama is one thing for a person who hides under a pseudonym, a N00b or a Wolfenburger, and completely different one for people whose real names are made public.

By the way, the swastika ban has apparently been lifted in Germany not too long ago.

We are starting to stray from the point of the issue too much.

ghost commented 3 years ago

Since on mobile I can't quote a reply for some reason. No this is very on topic to the situation. Very. "The spark must be up to something" nothing, absolutely nothing but abhorrent paranoia and the screams are from a bunch of fat fuck lovers. Yes, they will be given that title. These people are pushing a power move on you and us. DO. NOT. SUBMIT. There is nothing that will come of these people. When you cave they will want MORE on it. They will begin to demand more. When you give a mouse a cookie, it will then want milk! Do not give in.

Image ![895](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/77998291/121396320-41cd2800-c921-11eb-9170-d85be58d030d.jpeg)

Had to reword this. Thought it was hard to read.

DoomJedi commented 3 years ago

I had all this on Sonder. Nothing new. We really hoped to avoid it this time.

ghost commented 3 years ago

Sonder? Ain't that a hotel company?

Talon1024 commented 3 years ago

In this case, it's @DoomJedi's Sonderkommando Revolt mod for Wolf3D, which was cancelled for the controversy it caused.

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

@Wolfenburger I put your image into a spoiler, please do not deface the thread, it was made to serve a technical purpose. I think all the team members understand your point, and it is indeed true and obvious to everyone that the attackers will want more, but the reasonable part of community members will not approve that. Did you note how many people on the Doomworld thread expressed doubting views, wanted to understand the situation? Our goal is to have them believe us that we had no malicious intent, not the attackers (it would be a lost cause).

ghost commented 3 years ago

@Username-N00b-is-not-available I was just hype so I posted the image with no intention of defacement. And you speak of this thread. I am sure half of them are just coordinating from a discord and all "coming out" at once. It's way to fucking organized not to be. All "suddenly" you even admit they'll just want more. Don't give them this. If you do than make 2 versions of the game where the words and names are changed. And one that's original. I'm begging you man, we cannot give into this.

madame-rachelle commented 3 years ago

There is more to this than power play dynamics. I really would like to see this group thrive in the community that built them up and made them into what they are. You are encouraging them to bite the hand that feeds them. And not only that, to stuff a grenade down their throat too. I cannot abide that. You have no idea what this team has to lose, and what the community itself has to lose. There is no need to make things worse for anyone here than they already are, all for your silly little "power play" agenda.

ghost commented 3 years ago

@Talon1024 The ADL caught wind of it and sent messages out. The ADL is very much so uneducated on what's truly homage and propagation because they think mostly anything with nazi content is pro-nazi. They recently cut back on that and have revised some of their systems and quotes. Even repealing "Nordic runes" by saying that it "can be" religious or pagan. Originally it was "anyone" that used them was a antisemitic individual. The ADL has gotten much better. For fuck sakes man. I find even all this pretty small backlash. A majority of what I'm seeing is people wanted to kill nazis. Thats badass being a camp prisoner and breaking out and revolting against the nazis. Wolfenstein the New Order did this. Why can't we?

ghost commented 3 years ago

@madame-rachelle Literally who? Go away you're probably one of the people forcing a false narrative. Back to your discord. Back I say. "Biting the hand that feeds them" 10 random lovers in their discord ain't a hand that feeds them. Sorry bro. You can take your gaslighting somewhere else.

madame-rachelle commented 3 years ago

🙄 You've just proven that you have no idea what this is all really about.

ghost commented 3 years ago

@madame-rachelle You did too. Go fuck yourself you crazed feminist. You're not even a serious part of this project. Nor am I. But you playing power handed politics is disgusting. Censoring history and the disgusting acts by the nazis is not ok. Holy fuck lamo the time you came into this mod you came around the time of this "big controversy" gaslighter spotted.

madame-rachelle commented 3 years ago

And now the true colors show.

MuadDib90 commented 3 years ago

@madame-rachelle You did too. Go fuck yourself you crazed feminist. You're not even a serious part of this project. Nor am I. But you playing power handed politics is disgusting. Censoring history and the disgusting acts by the nazis is not ok.

That's enough @Wolfenburger. Please be either polite, or stop it. Thank you.

ghost commented 3 years ago

@madame-rachelle Yours to bud. You gladly came on a bandwagon to secure that this team erases its work. You came around the time of said launch.

ghost commented 3 years ago

@MuadDib90 Be polite to a discord raider that managed to join at the time of the controversy? Meh. I'm not a fan of it. Calm down there afa, there is no need to thumbs down. Rachelle is just looking and shaping out to be some random joining here to insight further pushes against the content we made. You may find my language course and mean. I apologize. But I'm not sitting down while some random comes in here to secure their political gains.

Talon1024 commented 3 years ago

On the other hand, we had an extensive discussion about whether or not to remove the sensitive/offensive content in #782 already, and we agreed that it was necessary to do so in order to avoid giving players the wrong impression about us.

Keep in mind that:

ghost commented 3 years ago

@Talon1024 The exposure museum in the Paris levels shows the brainwashing the nazis tried to commit against the French people and their disgusting attempts against the great Jewish people across Europe. They genuinely tried to abolish people that were Jewish and made sickening cartoons of Jewish people. We have memorials exposing this. The game simply is a homage to expose the nazis for their despicable actions against the jews. This is not something we should've been ashamed of showing. We're not supporting Hitler, of the actions of his filthy parasite party. We're blasting them fools. I love you dudes, the work, the effort effort people put forth. The soul and work.

It's in the end your choice. If you want to make the game this way that's fine. But you're caving into special interest. Next they'll want Mengele removed. Doomjedi already worked his butt off over this. It's crappy.

Talon1024 commented 3 years ago

Whilst I'm inclined to agree with some of your points on a personal level, it seems like you aren't seeing the big picture here.

AFADoomer commented 3 years ago

@Wolfenburger - Just stop. You are not helping.

ghost commented 3 years ago

Whilst I'm inclined to agree with some of your points on a personal level, it seems like you aren't seeing the big picture here.

But other wolfenstein games and ww2 games had done such things. Call of Duty even had a entire prison camp level in their first game. We literally did the same thing. I respect you for wanting us to not catch flak. But shoot what can we do? Cave in and get made fun of by others for it? Or stand our ground and get angry trolls cursing us out. You probably see the bigger picture of one side is a vocal minority. Actual people that enjoyed our mod I shouldn't even say our, I should say your, because I only play tested. But I want to say the people that enjoyed your mod, don't even seem to care. Look at the thousands and the YouTube comments and the game magazines. WE GOT ROMERO TO POST ABOUT US @AFADoomer I refuse to cave to "Madame" who joined at the time of the controversy. This person is here to push the narrative.

madame-rachelle commented 3 years ago

Stop misgendering me.

ghost commented 3 years ago

Stop misgendering me.

Confirmed troll. Confirmed here to just start shit. I have lots of transgender friends. Infact my brother is Trans and not a single one of these people have ever made it their goal to post such a quote ever on a thread or in a argument or convo.

Talon1024 commented 3 years ago

But other wolfenstein games and ww2 games had done such things

But they were also censored. For the secret levels in the Doom 2 rerelease, the swastika was replaced with a triangle, and Hitler had his moustache shaved off. Hitler's moustache was also shaved off in the German release of Wolfenstein: The New Order (IIRC).

ghost commented 3 years ago

But other wolfenstein games and ww2 games had done such things

But they were also censored. For the secret levels in the Doom 2 rerelease, the swastika was replaced with a triangle, and Hitler had his moustache shaved off. Hitler's moustache was also shaved off in the German release of Wolfenstein: The New Order (IIRC).

True but they had separate versions of this. We can easily have 2 versions of the game for release. That's how they handled it. The original RTCW was censored with iron crosses instead of swastikas and most nazi torture themes removed for the german release. But the western American and England releases and Russian had all the additions.

madame-rachelle commented 3 years ago

Stop misgendering me.

Confirmed troll. Confirmed here to just start shit. I have lots of transgender friends. Infact my brother is Trans and not a single one of these people have ever made it their goal to post such a quote ever on a thread or in a argument or convo.

I am not trolling you. You are the one coming in with a nasty attitude and assumptions and trying to villify me with literally any fantasy you can pin on me that seems even slightly plausible in your narrow view of me. You don't even know me and you presume to know who I am and what my agenda is without even bothering to look into my past or why the team members might have known me LONG before this project ever even began.

AFADoomer commented 3 years ago

Whilst I'm inclined to agree with some of your points on a personal level, it seems like you aren't seeing the big picture here.

But other wolfenstein games and ww2 games had done such things. Call of Duty even had a entire prison camp level in their first game. @AFADoomer I refuse to cave to "Madame" who joined at the time of the controversy. This person is here to push the narrative.

You don't get to decide what is done with the mod. You have made your perspective and opinions perfectly clear in the most destructive way possible and attacked a respected member of the community who is, if not "on our side," at least is understanding of the situation and supports our efforts to make things better with the community.

If I had the permissions, I would have banned you from posting here after your "feminist" comment.

Username-N00b-is-not-available commented 3 years ago

Returned from supper and now seeing this... Wow. I am closing this issue (hopefully we will be able to reopen it tomorrow, when the dust settles down). Sorry @Wolfenburger, it's honestly nothing personal, but GitHub is not a place for attacking people, regardless of the 'narrative' that they are going or not going to 'push' or other less-relevant things. Do you really expect you'd be able to say 'go f*** yourself' in a political or scientific debate and get away with it?

Talon1024 commented 3 years ago

I reported you @Wolfenburger. Perhaps you'll listen to a ban, if not reasonable discussion.

AFADoomer commented 3 years ago

As did I.