Applications of skills

[aquadrizzt]

I've been looking through the game files, trying to determine which skills actually do something (mechanically speaking).

Concentration and Spellcraft are used directly by the engine during combat (for preventing interruption and identifying spells, respectively).

Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Pick Pocket, and Search are used by activation of the relevant abilities.

Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate are obviously used in numerous dialog checks.

Alchemy appears in dialog checks in the Drider Lair (Imphraili's workbench) and in Riki's quest (Severed Hand 4). It is also nominally used for identifying potions, but I'm not sure if they actually implemented this.

Knowledge: Arcana is used to identify magical items (and maybe potions?) and in a single dialog check (which can also be fulfilled by having a Mage).

Wilderness Lore is basically only used in that god awful section in Fell Wood and for realizing that Beodaewn is probably not what he seems (Crash Site).

Animal Empathy lets you make a skill check to Charm Animals.

Use Magic Device's functionality is non-obvious and if someone knows more about it, I'd love to hear how it works in more detail. I'm going to assume that it is 1) hard-coded, and 2) not possible to emulate.

I've been thinking about simplifying the skill system pretty aggressively. Unfortunately, about half the skills are hard-coded (or have other, annoying behaviors such as appearance on toolbars), but I think with some clever application they could work.

To that end, I propose the following changes:

1) Merge Alchemy and Knowledge: Arcana into Spellcraft.

• Potions are identified by default (using the mentality of 5E: "a little taste is enough to tell the taster what the potion does")
• All non-unique magical items are identified by default.
• Unique magical items can only be identified at a store or via the Identify spell (e.g. you can't use Knowledge Arcana to identify them).
• Replace all Alchemy/Knowledge: Arcana checks with Spellcraft checks.
• Rename Spellcraft to Arcana (or something similar).

2) Merge Wilderness Lore into Animal Empathy.

• Add an ability to class CLAB files for Rangers/Druids/Barbarians that lets them cast an emulation of the old Wilderness Lore ability (e.g. summon a creature > check skill > print string depending on skill level).
• Replace Wilderness Lore checks with Animal Empathy checks.
• Rename Animal Empathy to Survival (or Nature).

This frees up three skills (Alchemy, Knowledge Arcana, Wilderness Lore) with basically no mechanical tie-ins for whatever you'd need a few skills for.

[semiticgod]

I do not think it's possible to merge Wilderness Lore with Animal Empathy. They have separate menu icons with separate mechanical functions, and I see no option to combine them using either WeiDU or Near Infinity. I think they're both directly tied to their original functions and we cannot re-assign them.

SemiOverhaul already makes Animal Empathy significantly stronger by patching various wild creatures like wyverns and yetis to be coded as animals, making them susceptible. At level 10, druids and rangers can also charm humanoid targets, though humanoid targets get a +5 bonus to their saving throw. At level 20, any target can be charmed, though non-animal, non-humanoid targets get a +10 bonus. I don't know how the save DC is calculated, but we can always level the spell to make it stronger or weaker at certain levels.

Putting a single point in Use Magic Device (only rogues and bards can do this, and maybe only rogues before semiOverhaul added it to bards) allows the character to use a scroll or item they otherwise could not use. Thus, a thief with a point in Use Magic Device could cast Heal from a scroll even if they have no cleric or druid levels. There is a chance of failure, which supposedly depends on the level of the scroll or item and the character's Use Magic Device skill. Failing to use the item is supposed to deal 1d6 magic damage per level of the item. I've noticed the magic damage happen but don't know how the game determines what level an item is, or if it actually influences the chance of failure. Items which can be used with the help of Use Magic Device will be highlighted in yellow, much like an unidentified item is highlighted in blue.

Making potions automatically identified would not free up the Alchemy skill completely. Rogues still need high Alchemy to qualify for the Envenom Weapon feat.

Removing the role of identification rolls would free up Knowledge completely. All instances of Knowledge and Alchemy checks in dialog could be replaced.

The new dialogs I've written include:

1. A single Wilderness Lore check with Thorasskus. Having 7 Wilderness Lore can help you bluff your way past him.
2. A single Spellcraft check to let the player confuse Harshom and his allies with an illusion (Illusionists get a bonus).
3. A Knowledge check with Thorasskus for non-Barbarians to bluff your way past him (you have to know barbarians say "Tempos" instead of "Tempus").
4. A Knowledge check for the Isair and Madae fight. Mages with high Knowledge, Bluff, and Intimidate can stall for time and avoid the fight.
5. Numerous additional checks for Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy.

Any skill can be used in a dialog check (note that Pick Pocket is rendered as Pick_Pocket, Animal Empathy is Animal_Empathy, and Knowledge (Arcana) is Knowledge_Arcana). Thus, we could replace the Knowledge and Spellcraft checks with a single type of check, or replace the Wilderness Lore check with Animal Empathy or Alchemy.

[Grammarsalad]

Couldn't we create a special self-renewing ability that allows identification of items in dialog, as Aqua describes in 2.1 (edit: I'm saying this without having looked at actions in a while...)? In fact, the same ability could be used for various wilderness lore and identification checks (and other checks that would be at will and script based)

[aquadrizzt]

Could we not just remove most of the class restrictions on items and steal UMD for something else? Let Bards/Rogues/whatever use wands if they want (and have the requisite Intelligence or whatever).

[semiticgod]

A self-renewing ability to identify items via dialog sounds extremely cumbersome. Identify is a cheap level 1 spell that costs 50-100 gold at any store; it's already very user-friendly and I don't want to get rid of that.

In order to completely remove Use Magic Device's original function, you would have to remove ALL class restrictions from ALL quick items. If you made UMD into Climb Trees, then any fighter with a single point in Climb Trees would suddenly see a yellow highlight over any Heal scroll, Iron Body scroll, and bard instrument in his inventory, and suddenly be able to use those items with a small chance of success.

The same applies to any other skill check with an existing function. If you made Wilderness Lore into Foreign Languages, anyone who put points into Foreign Languages would be able to learn information from the surrounding environment, and even if you delete the strings for the Wandering Village or whatever, you'd still have the Wilderness Lore icon that would simply do nothing when clicked. Make Open Locks into Freestyle Rap, and any aspiring rappers will suddenly find themselves to be expert locksmiths.

The only skills that we can modify, merge, or change without introducing side effects are the skills which are ONLY used in dialogs and scripts: Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate. Replacing any of them would result in a skill that also could ONLY be used in dialogs and scripts.

If we make all potions identified by default, then Alchemy gets opened up a little, but it will still be used as a prerequisite for Envenom Weapon. If we make Identify mandatory for unique items, but useless on anything else, then Knowledge gets opened up.

All other skills have existing functions that we cannot erase. And if users start noticing weird side effects from the skill changes, they WILL complain about them.

This is the best we can do with the tools at our disposal:

1. Merge Diplomacy with Animal Empathy and create the new skill "Empathy" (side effect: any class that can talk smoothly can now charm animals). This allows us to replace Diplomacy with something new.
2. Make all potions identified. This allows us to replace Alchemy with something new (side effect: the new skill is a prerequisite for the Envenom Weapon feat).
3. Merge Bluff with Pick Pocket and create the new skill "Deceit" (side effect: any class that can lie can also steal). This allows us to replace Bluff with something new.
4. Merge Bluff with Hide or Move Silently. See above.
5. Eliminate Intimidate and replace the checks with Diplomacy/Empathy or Bluff/Deceit checks
6. Merge Knowledge into Spellcraft (side effect: all items must be identified and/or impossible to identify without the Identify spell). This allows us to replace Knowledge with something new.

The safest choice would be to replace Bluff and Intimidate before we try to do anything else. That gives us two new skills, which we can use in dialogs and scripts, without causing any weird side effects.

[aquadrizzt]

Alternatively, we could scrap Envenom Weapon. It's a pretty mediocre feat anyway (and only available to Rogues with at least 8 points in Alchemy, so pretty heavily restricted). The ability is accessible (SPIN231.spl) so we could even make it something new and exciting that ties into whatever skill replaces Alchemy.

[Grammarsalad]

Sub-component idea: We could have different mutually exclusive skill systems that the player could choose (or not) to install. That way, we could have some 'out there' systems along side more 'conservative' systems. Just a thought.

Also, I've looked up IWD2 skills on sorcerers.net:

www.sorcerers.net/games/IWD2/skills.php

1. Merge Diplomacy with Animal Empathy and create the new skill "Empathy" (side effect: any class that can talk smoothly can now charm animals). This allows us to replace Diplomacy with something new.

Maybe "Empathy" could be a psionic skill? Maybe it should be called "Telepathy"?

I came here to voice the opinion that animal empathy shouldn't allow one to charm persons...but an "empathy" or "telepathy" skill? Yes, sir!

That would probably mean that diplomacy should be it's own skill. But, we could merge Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate into a Persuasion skill, no?

2 Make all potions identified. This allows us to replace Alchemy with something new (side effect: the new skill is a prerequisite for the Envenom Weapon feat).

Or, we could Expand the Alchemy skill instead. This way, envenom weapon would be good.
I've got a few ideas for that already, but there is already some good stuff in canon (e.g. creating alchemist fire, etc.)

Also, I've got at least some of this coded up already:

https://github.com/Grammarsalad/Proficiencies/blob/master/Read%20Me0.1.docx

According to sorcerers.net, you can craft alch items in dialog. It's been a while since I've played, so I don't know...

In order to completely remove Use Magic Device's original function, you would have to remove ALL class restrictions from ALL quick items. If you made UMD into Climb Trees, then any fighter with a single point in Climb Trees would suddenly see a yellow highlight over any Heal scroll, Iron Body scroll, and bard instrument in his inventory, and suddenly be able to use those items with a small chance of success.

Do attribute restrictions still work in IWD2? I like the idea of using attribute requirements

Merge Bluff with Pick Pocket and create the new skill "Deceit" (side effect: any class that can lie can also steal). This allows us to replace Bluff with something new.

See above.

Other random ideas: I assume that it would Not be possible to merge open lock and disable device into a single skill (even called disable device...)

[aquadrizzt]

Another idea that Pathfinder presents for the set of Social skills is just merging all three of them into a single skill called Influence.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/consolidated-skills-optional-rules/

Other implementations might be too hard-coded, but when has that ever stopped me before.

[Grammarsalad]

Another idea that Pathfinder presents for the set of Social skills is just merging all three of them into a single skill called Influence.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/consolidated-skills-optional-rules/

Other implementations might be too hard-coded, but when has that ever stopped me before.

Influence or persuasion. Whatever works...

[semiticgod]

@Grammarsalad: Attribute restrictions work for items. I don't know if Use Magic Device can bypass those restrictions.

Influence and Persuasion seem like weaker names to me. Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate captured the fact that "persuasion" involves multiple different methods, and one of the things I did in the dialogs was allow the player to use a variety of ways to get what they wanted. I didn't want Diplomacy to just be a "hold on, let's be friends and get along" kind of skill; I made sure that some of the options were very cutthroat and ruthless. Hence the five different nonviolent methods for dealing with Isair and Madae, only one of which is the "soft" route.

I think we should have at least two skills dedicated to talking, even if they have other functions like a Bluff/Pick Pocket or Diplomacy/Empathy skill. This would allow us to tweak which classes excel at which functions: druids and paladins would be excellent at Diplomacy, warriors would be much better at Intimidate, and rogues would excel at all three.

But excellent point about Envenom Weapon. We can replace the thing entirely with a Concoct Potions spell that would allow the player to create an invisible creature that would have a dialog that could open up a custom store, allowing the player to purchase a suite of unique potions. My Alchemist Kit for Mages mod (https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/63483/alchemist-kit-for-mages-v1-1/p1) used that scheme and was very well-received. I would be willing to do the grunt work in creating the creature, dialog, store, and balancing the potions. I can even rig the thing so that the store upgrades at higher Alchemy levels, making the potions stronger as the skill gets higher.

Since the feat is restricted to rogues, however, we'd have to bear in mind that if the skill is available to other classes, it should have a valid function for other classes. So if we remove the role of Alchemy in identifying potions, we should make it unusable by non-rogues or give it another purpose for non-rogues.

Shall I begin crafting a new suite of potions to replace the otherwise-weak Envenom Weapon ability?

Should we merge Diplomacy and Animal Empathy and call it Empathy, making it a dual-purpose persuasion and charm skill? I'm having trouble finding the icon for skills; ideally we'd change the icon from a bear's head to somehting else.

[Grammarsalad]

That feat change is a good idea independent of how skills will be reorganized

[semiticgod]

I can actually just copy most of the work from the Alchemist kit and transplant it onto IWD2. The BAMs are all modified versions of IWD2 BAMs, so they'd fit in just fine--I might even touch up the existing set of IWD2 potions, as some of them are kind of bland in terms of appearance, behavior, and item descriptions.

The rogue feat could grant access to a set of stronger and/or cheaper potions than a normal shop's, with the power of the potions dependent on the Alchemy skill. But since the skill can go all the way up to 40 and beyond, I was thinking one of you guys might have an idea for how to design a patch system in WeiDU that could create 20 increasingly strong variants of each potion and 20 different stores containing each potion type.

[FireStormCrow]

Honestly, I would generally remove Animal Empathy from game, at least in the current form. Becouse it quite unbalanced and it makes druidic charm and hold spells almost unnecessary. For example, in vanilla with only spear, bow and mature Animal Empathy I can clean almost all Ice Temple by solo druid or ranger, without rest on HoF difficulty, using local polar bears for tanking in doorways. In Tactics Animal Empathy can be even more powerful with aura cleansing component, becouse player can use it multiple times in one round. In many other place Animal Empathy can be extremilly handle too. For example in Dragon's Eye I can easily clean most of final level, neatly smuggling Monstrous Snakes and using it agains other mobs. Even summoning limit don't work for Animal Empathy. Also sometimes empathied animals becomes permanently unhostile becouse some bug. I did't test Animal Empathy in IWD2:EE yet, becouse I play without druid or ranger in my first run. But judging by what I read above, Animal Empathy will be even more overpowered in EE. Sorry for interrupting.

[semiticgod]

We can't really remove Animal Empathy from the game. The icon will always be there.

There won't be an aura cleansing component in IWD2:EE except for Beholder Sauce, a 2-round Improved Alacrity potion only available to characters with very high Alchemy and the Concoct Potions feat, which also imposes a -4 spellcasting speed penalty that should slow down Animal Empathy.

[FireStormCrow]

Semiticgod, oh, I see.

[OlvynChuru]

Animal Empathy can no longer charm humanoids.

With the help of IEex, it is now possible for spells and abilities to scale with the character's skills. For example, the DC of Set Natural Snare now improves based on the character's Wilderness Lore. So this opens up new things we can do with skills.