Identify Mario Based Graphics that Need to be Replaced

[datahead8888]

This is a task to IDENTIFY the set of graphics out there that are too similar to Mario and need to be replaced.

After they are identified, a series of tasks such as Issue #102 can be opened up. I don't think we should work the actual replacements of images through this task because there will probably be a very large number.

We'll also need to decide what constitutes being "too close" to Mario versus what constitutes "fair use". Not everything that seems a bit similar necessarily needs to be replaced, though we will want this game to have its own look and feel.

Related Tasks (Both graphics and non-graphics):

213 - Replace the powerup graphics

235 - Rolling fruits (follow up to #213)

81 - Redesign waffle coins

210 - New HUD coin collection graphics

203 - New logo (we're eliminating the word "Maryo")

209 - Jewel collection sound

205 - Name of the hero

97 - Removing old Mario-style music from SMC

238 - Replace level finish song

77 - Replace turtle boss with something based on army

219 - Replace stone graphics

228 - Replace fruit collection sounds

236 - Hills Replacements

333 - Vine Replacement

337 - Pow Switch Replacement

[Quintus]

Most of SMC’s graphics should be safe from a copyright point of view. We do not have any material directly from Nintendo since a long time anymore, so all we have to worry about are concepts. The most Mario-esk thing we still have are the mushrooms, which reveal SMC as a Mario resemblence.

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

If we're safe from a copyright point of view, it sounds like this will be an originality discussion. We've also identified pipes as potentially problematic; we can post other candidates for changes on this task. Of course, this doesn't mean we should change everything, as you pointed out. Some things are probably better left unchanged.

[Quintus]

The music :-). The tracks that are based directly on Mario themes should be removed.

[datahead8888]

Yes, Issue #97 covers that.

Might we consider changing the graphics of the spinning blocks? They look very much like they're from Super Mario World.

[Quintus]

Might we consider changing the graphics of the spinning blocks? They look very much like they're from Super Mario World.

Maybe we can replace them with some kind of propellers or so that start rotating when you jump against them? They could even be the same size as the spinning box and so replace it directly, and certainly don’t look like they were from SMB.

Also, I still would like to move away from all the jumping boxes in the current appeareance.

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

@Quintus brought up a good point in IRC that if we radically change the graphics (and mechanics), we will be departing from our roots.

Here are some revised suggestions of my own: Pipes - consider replacing them either with pneumatic tubes or some other kind of pipe (metal pipes maybe?) that doesn't look like it's directly out of a Nintendo game. Think twice before switching to shrines. Spinning Blocks - keep them as blocks that spin, but change the style a bit so that they don't look like they're out of Super Mario World Power up Boxes - Some changes are appropriate. I would not use the treasure chest that Mr. V. made for all question blocks (maybe just special ones). Changing a symbol on the blocks is probably better than a radical change in graphics.

Waffles also came up in the discussion. We either should revise the waffle graphics and maybe go with more of a food theme or go back to coins. I think coins are truer to the roots of the game - we just need a different symbol on the coins than mushrooms.

If we continue using mushrooms, they cannot have the Nintendo signature look they have now - we would probably need a more generic mushroom. I wouldn't have any problem with going with fruit based power ups (or maybe library books).

As discussed earlier, Mario themed music has to go, no questions asked. We need a new theme song, too - one that is integrated into a few other places in the game.

[Quintus]

Waffles also came up in the discussion. We either should revise the waffle graphics and maybe go with more of a food theme or go back to coins. I think coins are truer to the roots of the game - we just need a different symbol on the coins than mushrooms.

I don’t want to keep the mushrooms. That much originality really should be taken, and we can introduce more powerups that come from a different theme.

Pipes - consider replacing them either with pneumatic tubes or some other kind of pipe (metal pipes maybe?) that doesn't look like it's directly out of a Nintendo game. Think twice before switching to shrines.

We can take an step-by-step approach. We leave some kind of pipe in the game, but try to not use it in all the levels. Provide other teleporter graphics that fit the theme (I somewhere already stated jungle pipes just look weird).

Valete, Quintus

[Luiji]

I don’t want to keep the mushrooms. That much originality really should be taken, and we can introduce more powerups that come from a different theme.

If we get a good idea of the general plot and theme the decision on what to replace mushrooms with should get much easier.

[datahead8888]

 If we get a good idea of the general plot and theme the decision on what to replace mushrooms with should get much easier.

I could start on another revision of the story document if this helps. I didn't get feedback from some people, though. I was meaning to trim down my last posting on the story document discussion thread, since it wound up way too long, though.

 I somewhere already stated jungle pipes just look weird

My feeling is that the Mario games show that pipes can work anywhere and won't look weird, but it would be good to see if we can come up with something different.

[datahead8888]

@Quintus - there actually are some graphics items that need to be changed to avoid criticism by people in the Fedora Linux packaging team (see issue #92 for that discussion):

• The turtle boss must be changed to an army boss
• I think the pipes and the spin boxes will need redesigns. I think they can still look like pipes and blocks of some sort, but we want something that doesn't look as borrowed from a Mario game.
• We also will have to replace music (especially the title theme) to appease them. I obviously need to reply to the music replacement thread with feedback when I get a chance. Music is a big issue.

[Quintus]

I agree with you completely. It does require artwork, though. Especially the army boss will take a lot of time, but a pipe replacement that doesn’t like fishy will be difficult also.

Vale, Quintus

[Bugsbane]

Personally, I'd love to see the mushrooms replaced by fruit, preferably fairly colourful, round fruit. I'm thinking peaches, or apples, or oranges or something like that. If we make them round, then we can make them roll instead of mysteriously slide along the floor, possibly even reusing code from when Army rolls around in a ball.

[datahead8888]

Personally, I'd love to see the mushrooms replaced by fruit, preferably fairly colourful, round fruit.

I think this is what was discussed in the old forums originally. The rolling fruit is an interesting idea. We have since talked about using magic books based on the library theme. Books that move would run with legs. I've been having an easier time seeing fruit for the power ups, but books could potentially work if the rest of the game supported it well.

[Bugsbane]

Hmmm.... I guess if everything was changed to support a book theme it could work... but personally, to me, books aren't expected to have the vibrant colour fruit has which makes a powerup look appealing. To most people the idea of getting a book doesn't have the pure sensory enjoyment of fruit (and I love reading). Visually, they're more complex and less iconic. In games they typically have more of a purpose of sharing instructions.

Personally, I would use the books, but I'd use them to replace the info squares. That's just me though. Not sure what everyone else thinks.

[datahead8888]

It will probably be a lot easier to make fruit work for power ups than library books. I also like the idea of the rolling effect.

Maybe we could have something like fire-cherries or ice-blueberries, fruits with mystical powers.

[Bugsbane]

"Maybe we could have something like fire-cherries or ice-blueberries, fruits with mystical powers."

I like it! That would make them a bit less generic, and more unique to smc. That said, as long as we're giving them magic powers, they could actually be straight out fire berries / ice berries, which gives a bit more freedom to play around and come up with something unique.

[datahead8888]

In that case we could also have the ghost berry (I couldn't think up a fruit for it until I realized you were saying to use berry for all the items).

Poisonous mushrooms would become poisonous berries, which works.

What about the 1-Up mushroom? The 1-Up berry sounds too much like it's from a Mario game...

[Bugsbane]

Life berry?

[datahead8888]

Yep, that would work.

[Bugsbane]

Flamey cherry berries:

[datahead8888]

They look good, but we may need some more sprites (once in Inkscape) so as to animate the flames.

[Bugsbane]

Actually these are sketched in Inkscape and are an SVG already (sadly Github doesn't let me insert an SVG in comments). Animating the flame shape on this would be trivial. Do we still have to pay attention to the old "power of two" thing for image dimensions?

[datahead8888]

Do we still have to pay attention to the old "power of two" thing for image dimensions?

I know that later versions of OpenGL (the rendering programming interface) have done away with this. I'm not sure if any other restriction existed in SMC's systems, though I doubt this would be the case.

[datahead8888]

We also need a star replacement - maybe the power berry? It could flash / radiate with power...

[Bugsbane]

How about a "Golden berry", that is literally gold?

[Quintus]

Do we still have to pay attention to the old "power of two" thing for image dimensions?

I ran into this and yes, I can affirm you, we have to pay attention. SMC uses real old OpenGL. There is issue #55 specifically targetted at the OpenGL upgrade topic.

Berries sound like a very nice alternative. As I already outlined elsewhere, the moving mechanics do not have to be kept the way they are currently.

Vale, Quintus

[Luiji]

@Quintus It's also possible to modify the image loading code to automatically add transparent bounds to the image to resolve the power of two problem where necessary. This is what the Allegro 5.x library does.

Whether or not it's even worth doing that varies on how long-term the OpenGL upgrade issue would be compared to the inconvenience of creating power of two images for now.

[datahead8888]

If Allegro is adding bounds to the image, is this when it is configured to use an older version of OpenGL? If it's using a newer version of OpenGL, I would assume OpenGL itself deals with this. Either way it sounds like Allegro deals with it, but I was wanting to understand.

[Bugsbane]

Well, if an image is 208x241px it's not hard to out put it at a 256x256px. It's more that multiplied over all of the objects and sprite frames that I'm presuming you're using up more storage, ram etc. For new artists it may be a small gotcha, but really it isn't hard to change the page size in Inkscape and position objects in it.

[datahead8888]

How about a "Golden berry", that is literally gold?

Yes, a "power berry" sounded a bit like "power star" from the old Mario games. Something that relates to gold actually works well with the themes we're exploring for the story.

[Bugsbane]

Is it ok to use Inkscapes various extended effects such as live path effects, or do we have to stick strictly to the SVG standard (as opposed to Inkscape's file standard)?

Personally I adore being able to have lines of varying widths (Inkscapes "Powerstroke"), but that's an inkscape feature not yet supported in the SVG spec.

I saw in the Wiki though that Inkscape is the official SMC editor.

[Quintus]

Is it ok to use Inkscapes various extended effects such as live path effects, or do we have to stick strictly to the SVG standard (as opposed to Inkscape's file standard)?

Use whatever Inkscape gives you, there is no need to cut down graphics quality only to conform to the standard. As long as it’s publically documented what you use so that others can learn how to use it, it’s fine.

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

@Bugsbane, what do you think might work for spin boxes? They look like they're ripped out of Super Mario World now.

Quintus had suggested:

Maybe we can replace them with some kind of propellers or so that start rotating when you jump against them? They could even be the same size as the spinning box and so replace it directly, and certainly don’t look like they were from SMB.

There are lots of possibilities. We could also continue to use some sort of block that spins, but it needs to have something different than the color yellow with two vertical, black lines.

[Bugsbane]

To me the obvious choice (which isn't to say it's the best) is wooden crates. I mean, what else more obviously square and holds stuff inside it? The lid could fly open when jumped against.

[Quintus]

To me the obvious choice (which isn't to say it's the best) is wooden crates.

mrvertigo27 already made a chest, with one SVG being already here in the repository, several other SVGs are available in the forums. However, there have been raised concerns against chests, which is why they are not yet used (see especially page 3 in the forum thread).

Valete, Quintus

[Bugsbane]

That conversation goes a bit all over the place, so I'm not sure exactly which thing you're referring to. I'm guessing that you mean the part where you ask if we should be changing the game mechanics of the blocks as well as the look but I can't be sure.

If this is what you're talking about, then I'd say that generally my inclination is to just get the legally questionable assets swapped out with equivalents first, before getting into long, complicated discussions about game mechanics, and then once we have no assets that could get the game into trouble, then start looking at game mechanics afterwards.

I can run up graphics pretty quickly, but deciding how to change the workings of the game can take considerable debate.

On another note though, I would suggest that those chests depart from the visual style of the game quite a bit, in that they are no longer an iconic, cartoon look, but are starting to get (half way) into a more detailed, realistic look. One of the issues that SMC had way back, was that Fluxy didn't really have a lot of understanding about design, or visual styling consistencies, which led to the look of the game becoming a bit of a confusing mess in places where it departed from the clear design style of the SMB games. It also led to many head banging, discussions with vague requests like "needs to look better with some sweet shading."

Creating a visual design style is a very large undertaking, as it has to be consistent throughout the game. It involves finding other artwork that will influence the look, which elements of which artwork will be incorporated, many mockups and feedback sessions, codifying the agreed on elements and creating documentation, style sheets, examples, not to mention redesigning all artwork that doesn't fit into the new design style. It's the visual equivalent of recoding the game from the ground up. Yes, there's stuff that you'll re-use, but overall it's a recreation.

My suggestion is that we keep the overall design aesthetic of the SMB games (which does not fall under copyright, as you can't copyright being influenced by someone's style) but make sure that we create new assets to replace all the ones whose content (not just style) looks similar to SMB (eg spin blocks, Turtle boss, intro music etc.). What this means is still being consistent to the current style, which is an iconic, cartoon based style which uses bold outlines and colours with simplified visual features and details.

Remember, more detail is not better. It's just a design choice. Now look at the level of detail on the chests. Compare to the level of detail on things like the spin boxes, or really anything else in the game or in any of the SMB games. It's much higher, giving a more realistic and less iconic look. As I said above, it's easy to just say "Hey, that's our new look to differentiate ourselves from the SMB games", but if we're taking that approach, we can't just do it with one asset. It's choosing to say that the game's visual style is different, which means changing everything. If we're doing that, visually, it's a project that needs to be given the same level of consideration, as if, to use a coding analogy, you decided to rebuild the game to be based on QT instead of openGL / boost / SDL etc. It can be done, but it's not something you just decide to do one asset at a time. It's a project.

Personally I would suggest keeping the scope manageable by just creating a super simple, crate (not chest) graphic that is basic, iconic and fits with the current visual style of the game, and leaving changes to the game mechanics and overall visual style of the whole game for now.

[Quintus]

That conversation goes a bit all over the place, so I'm not sure exactly which thing you're referring to. I'm guessing that you mean the part where you ask if we should be changing the game mechanics of the blocks as well as the look but I can't be sure.

I was referring to the mechanics, yes.

On another note though, I would suggest that those chests depart from the visual style of the game quite a bit, in that they are no longer an iconic, cartoon look, but are starting to get (half way) into a more detailed, realistic look. One of the issues that SMC had way back, was that Fluxy didn't really have a lot of understanding about design, or visual styling consistencies, which led to the look of the game becoming a bit of a confusing mess in places where it departed from the clear design style of the SMB games. It also led to many head banging, discussions with vague requests like "needs to look better with some sweet shading."

I see. Maintaining a singular visual identity helps the game to be recognized as a single organized entity. Additionally, with @brianvanderburg2’s packaging feature users have the possibility to use another graphics set if they want to.

I will try to take special care for any new graphics now, thanks for your reminder, @Bugsbane. However, I’m not an artist, hence I will probably just ask you when I’m unsure about whether a graphic fits the game or rather doesn’t.

My suggestion is that we keep the overall design aesthetic of the SMB games (which does not fall under copyright, as you can't copyright being influenced by someone's style) but make sure that we create new assets to replace all the ones whose content (not just style) looks similar to SMB (eg spin blocks, Turtle boss, intro music etc.). What this means is still being consistent to the current style, which is an iconic, cartoon based style which uses bold outlines and colours with simplified visual features and details.

Agreed.

Personally I would suggest keeping the scope manageable by just creating a super simple, crate (not chest) graphic that is basic, iconic and fits with the current visual style of the game, Personally I would suggest keeping the scope manageable by just creating a super simple, crate (not chest) graphic that is basic, iconic and fits with the current visual style of the game,

OK. Go ahead and post something we can incorporate :-)

Vale, Quintus

[Bugsbane]

Sure. I'll get on to it.

[datahead8888]

We need to think about replacing both the spin blocks and the question blocks, since the combination of the two makes it feel like Super Mario World.

However, there have been raised concerns against chests, which is why they are not yet used (see especially page 3 in the forum thread).

As I remember it, Quintus was about to use a treasure chest made by Mr. Vertigo in order to replace all question blocks. I had raised concerns on it, basically saying I thought it looked too regal to be used for all question blocks in the game. I can't seem to pull up the image now, but I would say that treasure chest could potentially be used for very special items but would not work well to have dotting through the levels for every question block.

The thought I've had on using wooden crates to replace spin blocks is that we've already got a pushable wooden crate object. We'll need a design a little bit differently from the existing crates for the new trap door crates in order to differentiate them. Color and/or line patterns might be a possibility. I was originally hesitating on using wooden crates in general, but I think they'll probably work.

At the very least, we should consider a symbol other than ? for the question blocks. Quintus mentioned ! blocks that were being replaced with ^, though I have not tried these game objects in a level yet myself. If we reach the point where we have swapped out question blocks, we may be less of a Mario clone than Super Tux is - they still have question blocks and coins.

I'd also be interested in eventually adding a block you can destroy with your head, so that our mechanics don't feel like Super Mario World (it doesn't have this kind of destroyable block). Super Mario Bros and Super Mario Bros 3 had bricks that met this purpose -- we would obviously have to use something other than bricks. I was thinking about a block that crumbles away when you hit it with your head. We also might try to dream up some new kinds of blocks for even more variety. These new blocks will of course be mechanics changes which must happen in later releases of the game due to the feature freeze.

My suggestion is that we keep the overall design aesthetic of the SMB games

I'd honestly be interested in just slightly edging toward a little more realistic look for some graphics here and there so as to go with the higher level Shakespeare / librarian / historical themes. I agree it should generally stay cartoonish, though. In some places I'd like to avoid excessively exaggerated features on characters like the librarian, especially.

[Bugsbane]

" I had raised concerns on [treasure chests], basically saying I thought it looked too regal" I agree on this. It's not generic enough for any type of level.

"we've already got a pushable wooden crate object" I hadn't seen this. Where can I find it?

[Quintus]

At the very least, we should consider a symbol other than ? for the question blocks. Quintus mentioned ! blocks that were being replaced with ^, though I have not tried these game objects in a level yet myself.

I would suggest to remove the symbols completey and instead go with different colours or something similar.

We also might try to dream up some new kinds of blocks for even more variety.

See also issue ticket #136.

I'd honestly be interested in just slightly edging toward a little more realistic look for some graphics here and there so as to go with the higher level Shakespeare / librarian / historical themes. I agree it should generally stay cartoonish, though.

I agree with this. It should be possible to "shift" our visual identity target a bit (also to make a difference to SMC) without having to redesign ALL our graphics, which is, as @Bugsbane has pointed out, a major undertaking.

I hadn't seen this. Where can I find it?

In the level editor, open the "specials" group and scroll down to the end. The last item is the moveable crate. The SVG is in the repository.

Vale, Quintus

[Bugsbane]

Could we edit this issue so that the first post has a list (or links to one) of issues for things that need replacing? I'd start with:

213

81

210

203

209

205

97

77

for a start.

[datahead8888]

Could we edit this issue so that the first post has a list (or links to one) of issues for things that need replacing?

--Done.

[datahead8888]

I marked this as version 2.0, since we need to have come to consensus on what the Mario-isms are and how important they are by the release. If there's something minor we don't change by the release, it will have its own task.

[datahead8888]

We should probably create a task to replace the hills with eyes (from Super Mario Bros 3) with something original, and we need to identify any other Mario backgrounds that need to be replaced. If I'm wrong at all, feel free to correct me.

[Quintus]

We should probably create a task to replace the hills with eyes (from Super Mario Bros 3) with something original, and we need to identify any other Mario backgrounds that need to be replaced.

:+1:

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

I have added task #236 for the hills replacements.

[Quintus]

Not finishable per 2.0.0.

Valete, Quintus

[Bugsbane]

It would be good to update this with which items are still outstanding, and which are closed.

From my quick survey, it seems that the only ones left undone are:

77 - Replace turtle boss with something based on army

228 - Replace fruit collection sounds (I've posted a possible draft here)

236 - Hills replacements (although if this is necessary as they've had the eyes removed already, I'm not sure)

333 Vine replacement - We actually have a good replacement graphics for this. It's still a vine, but a less Mario like one. I posted a screenshot using it on the ticket.

337 Pow switch replacement - I can have the frames for this done within minutes of knowing how many we need.

As you can see, nearly all of these have at least a partial fix or draft, or are close to being done already. The only big one is the Turtle boss.

[datahead8888]

I'm definitely looking forward to the new turtle boss replacement :)