Removing old Mario-style music from TSC

[Quintus]

We have some music in SMC that still resembles original Mario too much. It should be removed, but for this we first need to have a list of which music actually is too Mario-like.

Valete, Quintus

[ghost]

• menu.ogg
• default_story_1.ogg

[Quintus]

I want to add the following files to this list. The metadata of these files indicates they are ripped or at least based on a rip, their metadata title contains things like "xoc_SMW_07" and similar, which I interpret this way. List (metadata title included in parentheses):

• land_1.ogg (xoc_SMW_07_donutplains)
• jungle_1.ogg (xoc_SMW_08_theme_ragtime)
• land_2.ogg (xoc_SMW_11_vanilladome)
• water_1.ogg (xoc_SMW_13_starroad)
• courseclear.ogg (xoc_SMW_06_courseclear)

Additionally, the following ones don’t have this metadata, but trigger an "oh Mario" effect in my head.

• cave_1.ogg
• land_5.ogg (current level default music!)

What do you think? Shall I just remove all these files from SMC for now? I mean, we can’t keep them anyway if these are really ripped files. No way, unless you disprove me with fact that these aren’t rips.

Btw. I was very surprised to find this metadata in waterway_1.ogg:

Title: Consonance Album: Secret Maryo Chronicles Original Soundtrack

I didn’t knew SMC had a different "original" soundtrack earlier. Maybe this is a good replacement for default_story_1.ogg (which is used AFAIK only in the tutorial).

[Quintus]

If these are really ripped files, the problem gets even bigger. We will have to remove those from the Git repository completely, including from the Git history. This kind of operations is something Git is not very good in, so I will have to look up how I can do this while keeping the rest of the commit history...

Vale, Quintus

[Quintus]

@DarkAceZ pointed this one out to me: https://archive.org/details/xoc_SMW. So this probably isn’t ripped. Sorry for the noise, but I was a bit shocked. So it can stay in-game for now, but we do have to discuss removing/replacing them on the longer term.

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

@Quintus, this task should probably be marked "Blocker", since anything that might be copyright infringement blocks a release.

Also, we would probably want to decide what to remove from the repositories/game based on the music itself, not the textual descriptions. The descriptions could just be making references to Super Mario World for comparison purposes. If the descriptions help us determine that the music itself is a violation, then we would want to purge the files.

[Quintus]

this task should probably be marked "Blocker", since anything that might be copyright infringement blocks a release.

Yes and no. Material that clearly infringes copyright must go before the next release, sure. But those music files that are merely meant as a resemblance can stay in for now, although we aim for getting away from them as well.

So I will mark this as a blocker for now.

Vale, Quintus

[Quintus]

We have no copyright-infringing files as far as I can see. Discussing over Mario-taste music shall not hinder a 2.0.0 release, so I remove the blocker label.

Vale, Quintus

[Bugsbane]

I know the original games pretty well, and the following pieces still seem to be in Git: courseclear menu cave_1 (remix) jungle_1 land_5

These are all tunes directly from SMW, although I think they mave likely been rerecorded. The cave tune (cave_1) never had electric guitar like we have. Others though, like jungle_1 are indistinguishable from the original). Another good example is default_story_1. It's clearly not ripped straight from the games, but appears to be a completely new piece of music using the SMB melody. Unfortunately this is still as illegal as a direct rip, although it's so well done that I would suggest trying to contact the original creator and asking if they would be interested in composing a new the for Chronicles.

On that topic, has anyone tried reaching out to any musicians from open source type websites to help replace the current music yet? I'm thinking places like: http://linuxmusicians.com/ http://opensourcemusician.com http://opsound.org/ http://jamendo.org ...or even just contributors of music to other FOSS games.

[Quintus]

Removing the Mario music from SMC should be completed as soon as possible, but if we remove all the remixes now, we will suffer from a lack of music in the game. If we could come up with, say, five new tracks to add, we can purge the old ones out completely. We will have to look through the existing levels on which of the new tracks fits them best, though.

On that topic, has anyone tried reaching out to any musicians from open source type websites to help replace the current music yet?

Not yet, the focus is currently on the code for the upcoming 2.0.0 release.

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

Not yet, the focus is currently on the code for the upcoming 2.0.0 release.

Quintus and I have been reviewing old music submitted on the old secretmaryo.org site in order to get it committed to git. Our view was that we should do this first before contacting former artists such as jobromedia and naerbu. This way they know their work is getting used. Someone could probably go ahead and contact new music artists through these sites now. I also am interested in contacting artists on newgrounds.com (they have an audio portal I like).

I know I need to sit down and analyze the music tracks and post an analysis here. My analysis will probably bring up a few new points that may be worth discussing.

Note that we need a newly composed title theme song for the game. We could then request a couple level / overworld songs that are remixes of this theme for reinforcement. The title theme needs to be exposed to heavier scrutiny than most songs, and we will want an uncompressed version and any music source files.

[Bugsbane]

Yes. If we have the basic melody that we can give musicians, then we can let them go crazy styling it in the same way that our current title track takes a very simple melody from SMB 1 and embellishes it a huge amount.

The thing is, I have a feeling that while the title track would be copyright infringement for using the melody, that I still suspect that the track wasn't ripped from the game wholesale. I don't actually remember ever hearing this exact version in any of the original SMB games.

I think someone has taken the melody and made a new track for it. While it still means we can't use it - if this was true - and we could find out who did it, then we could contact them and ask them to give the same treatment to our new melody. If we could make that happen it would be amazing, as the current title track sounds magnificent.

[Quintus]

I think someone has taken the melody and made a new track for it.

The Git log does not really give much information on the menu.ogg file (just that is was imported from old SVN repo), but the accompanying menu.txt file says the music has been composed by LoXodonte. We can probably search the old forums with these terms to dig up the motivations behind it.

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

I should have posted this thought quite a while ago, but I need to get it out there, especially given our recent findings in #92.

I'm not aware of any direct rips of music we have from the Mario games (even the music directly ripped from the website we discussed is still not a direct rip from a game). Each song changes instruments, notes, rhythm, or other components to make a somewhat different piece. This is usually referred to as a remix. However, as far as I know, it still constitutes a derivative work from the Mario intellectual properties, which is a legal issue.

This is basically what @Bugsbane said above, but it's worth discussing the implications of derivative works. My sister once mentioned a Pokémon fan art site getting shut down by Nintendo. Given our theme song, we could easily fall in the crosshairs. @Quintus and @Bugsbane are probably the best to advise on legal issues like this.

The only immediate solution is what default0 suggested - borrow music that has a permissible or public domain license and use it temporarily. As we get new, original music from game composers, we can swap it out. Some people may become attached to the borrowed music, but that's life. A good temporary title theme would be something from classical music - maybe a song from Vivaldi's Four seasons. That might work well with the librarian theme.

We could get some level / world map songs from the old submissions on secretmaryo.org. The title song, however, it probably going to have to be borrowed for now.

[Quintus]

The only immediate solution is what default0 suggested - borrow music that has a permissible or public domain license and use it temporarily.

When I’m back from holidays I will look through what can be found on the old forums and on the web.

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

I marked my recommendations on a bunch of them in the secretmaryo.org forums - that may help a little. As for title themes, we could also consider public domain / permissible license jazz songs, given that the old title theme was a jazz rendition. Jazz and classical music are both options for a temporary, borrowed song.

[ciro589m]

land_5.ogg Is Bomb Omb Battlefield

[Quintus]

hmmmmm. I don’t really know if we are backed up with original music yet to remove the remixes... I would really like to, but I have still doubts...

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

hmmmmm. I don’t really know if we are backed up with original music yet to remove the remixes... I would really like to, but I have still doubts...

If we don't have enough music, we need to borrow it from free sites as a temporary substitute. It can be swapped out later.

He is correct that one song is from Super Mario 64 (Bob-omb Battlefield) and not the other games.

[ghost]

A quick search for CC music on opengameart.org revealed those: http://opengameart.org/content/digital-clouds http://opengameart.org/content/lark http://opengameart.org/content/red-hot http://opengameart.org/content/feex http://opengameart.org/content/metamorphosis-ver-2 http://opengameart.org/content/polyverse-title http://opengameart.org/content/star-light http://opengameart.org/content/majesty

Not perfect, but it was a quick search. Also, there seems to be more edgy music.

[Bugsbane]

Jamendo.com has many thousands of tracks. They're all creative Commons. The main issue is that most of the time artists release under a cc by NC sa license, and the NC ( non commercial) part makes it non GPL compatible. Generally though, most musicians, if they're asked, are fine with someone who isn't a company using it under something like cc by sa if asked anyway. The share alike part actually stops big companies from using it anyway, as they don't want to give away their product or let other people edit their ads.

[Quintus]

Nice find, @sauer2! Thank you, I will investigate adding some or all of those later.

Vale, Quintus

[ghost]

@Quintus: Actually, if you have the time, I suggest to check out more of the music on opengameart.org, as this website was made for placeholder art and there are tons of music either in public domain or without the NC part @Bugsbane mentioned.

[datahead8888]

Has anyone found a good replacement for the level-end fanfare? That one is very specific, so we need a small tune to replace it.

[Quintus]

I know! We use the former title music for the level-finish sound!

[datahead8888]

I know! We use the former title music for the level-finish sound!

Sigh...it would sound like it's from the 80's...which would be in the right vein given our Mario-inspired origins....

There should be a good replacement somewhere...

[Quintus]

@datahead8888, do something for your irony sensors :-P

Vale, Quintus

[Bugsbane]

Couldn't we just rip something from the newest mario game? ;P

[datahead8888]

I just reached aakburns (one of the musicians from the old SMC). He said he can edit the "170 Jam" song to not have the delay at the end (this is a new song that was omitted due to this issue). He also talked about making new material and submitting some of his recently composed music. This will help us increase our music track count.

We also might see if he can help with any of the themes we need.

We'll want to continue contacting old musicians as well as artists, programmers, and level editors.

[RedFT]

Should new music be similar to the ones that will be replaced?

[Quintus]

Should new music be similar to the ones that will be replaced?

It would be better if not. We are trying to move away from Mario, and therefore it would be best if we had our own, different music, that is not recognised as a Mario remix. You are free in what you want to submit, but please ensure that the song you submit loops properly so it can be used as a background music. Also, please don’t choose heavy-metal music or so ;-)

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

It can in many cases be a similar style, as long as it is not recognized as being too similar. We are trying new themes, so new styles are good, as long as it works in the game (heavy metal or dance music are examples of genres that probably won't work in the current game).

[Quintus]

@RedFT, do you think you can submit some material within two weeks to at least replace one or two of the offending songs? I’m going to release the (first) release candidate this weekend, and if no critical bugs are found, the final version will be released on the following weekend.

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

Jobromedia posted a list of songs we could review from the streaming music site. I think it's in an email. You should have a copy of that, too, Quintus, but I can try to dig it up again when I get some time if needed.

We also have some remaining songs for Arik Burns to review. We'll need to create a forum discussion. If no one else gets a chance, I might be able to get to it in 2-3 days or so.

If @RedFT shares any new songs, I'll definitely be interested in hearing them. He does have a lot of songs posted under his Naerbu account on newgrounds.com, but we will have to ask him if we can use any of them (and do it under the license posted in our forum). He has a second newgrounds.com account as well; I think he mentioned this in an email.

With a bit of coordination and pooled work, it should be possible to find a way to knock out all Mario songs. I don't know that it's possible to decide on 100% of them in 1.5 weeks, though, so we'd have to make a hard choice on the release date. We should not "rush" song decisions, though keeping Mario-remixes is also bad.

[datahead8888]

I opened issue #260 to find a replacement for the Super Mario World remix used for the dying music.

[datahead8888]

Johan Brodd had sent us links to some songs for which he said:

A few examples of new songs I've composed that I don't mind get into the game:

Johan Brodd - Native chants - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/native-chants A native american chant with a nice beat going, perfect for any mountaineous world

Johan Brodd - Days left to see - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/days-left-to-see Eastern European influenced gypsy jazz with trumpet, violin, vibraphone, and guitar.

Johan Brodd - Under streams - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/under-streams Synthetic vibes with a fresh uplifting slow paced rhythm. Might be something for any cavern levels or underwater levels.

Johan Brodd - State of flux - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/state-of-flux A very strange and oddworldy song. Like forgotten science being rediscovered and applied with failing modern technologies.

Johan Brodd - Darker than black - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/darker-than-black A really hard hitting track with a very intricate flow and rhythm. Kinda chip tunesque, but it tells a story on it's own.

This song is not meant for any game, but it shows the drum library and transform library a bit in use: Johan Brodd - No more sorrows - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/no-more-sorrows

Johan's page for your reference: https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd

[datahead8888]

Also, @Quintus had posted this link to Arik Burns's songs - ftp://ftp.secretchronicles.de/misc/aakburns-music.tar.xz

We'll want to review those, too.

If we succeed in getting rid of at least some of the more prominent Mario remixes before the final release, it will help dispel our Mario clone perception. Release 2.0 is going to get more attention than most of the other releases for a while (it's the first release in 5 years and is very major). I do understand we need to get the release done, though, so we need to make decisions on the music soon.

[datahead8888]

@tristanheaven @Luiji @brianvanderburg2 @carstene1ns @default0 @DarkAceZ @dlpenguinlover @Bugsbane @kirbyfan64 @xet7 @giby @Quintus @ciro589m @sydneyjd @AMDmi3 ---- What do you think of these songs? What Mario-songs might we replace with some of them?

My thoughts on these might come a bit slowly, since I'm about to enter finals week in school.

[datahead8888]

@RedFT - I know you have a ton of music posted at http://naerbu.newgrounds.com/audio/ If you give us permission to use it (and we'd need to make sure we're clear on licensing for legal purposes), we will have a lot of options to both get rid of Mario music and increase our song count. I know you said you wanted your music to be used in a game, so this is a good chance.

[sydneyjd]

I do like some of Arik Burns songs, even though they all sound kinda similar. Most would work as great game music. i see that we already use the best of them. :)

Im not so fond of "Native chants". If we could get a version without the singing maybe.

"Days left to see" is decent, but i dont know what kind of level that would work well in.

" Under streams" sounds nice.

"Darker then black" and "No more sorrows" would work fine.

:) And there you have my opinion. :)

[datahead8888]

For now I had these 2 thoughts: water_1.ogg is a remix of the Mario star music. It could be replaced by Johan's "Under Streams" music if we get his permission.

land_5.ogg is a very commonly used song in TSC levels. It is a remix of the Bob-omb battle field song in Super Mario 64. If someone identifies a good replacement, it will really help. There are other songs to replace if we can, but land_5.ogg ranks pretty highly on my list.

[Quintus]

Johan Brodd - Native chants - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/native-chants

I have doubts we should use this. There might be some real natives playing the game that wouldn’t be too fond of an imaginated native song.

Johan Brodd - Days left to see - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/days-left-to-see

Nice. It looks as if it could be made to loop easily, would make for a quite nice background music track.

Johan Brodd - Under streams - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/under-streams

This is nice, but the first half is a bit repetitive. Otherwise well-suited for cave levels. Also should loop probably.

Johan Brodd - State of flux - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/state-of-flux

I really like that one! Combine it with the new sitecrapers background! Wantz!

But again, it would be nice if it looped...

Johan Brodd - Darker than black - https://soundcloud.com/johanbrodd/darker-than-black

Certainly a nice song, but its style really doesn’t fit this game. It would be well-suited for another game.

Also, @Quintus had posted this link to Arik Burns's songs - ftp://ftp.secretchronicles.de/misc/aakburns-music.tar.xz

I’ve already included a number of songs from that archive into the game. The one song that is missing that I would like is the 170jam, but the long pause at the end must be removed.

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

Native Chants - I don't think the style will work as well in Secret Chronicles overall.

Days Left to See - This may help us to introduce more styles into the game, something we've been exploring.

Under Streams - as discussed above it could replace water_1.ogg.

State of Flux - yeah, this one really moves. I wasn't seeing it in a laboratory level, but @Quintus's suggestion for a level with the skyscraper background is really interesting. Just imagine it - One background with the moon and dark sky superimposed by the skyscraper background, with Alex hopping from building to building in the foreground. He could also sometimes enter windows of buildings much like Mario enters pipes and find hidden rooms to explore. It would be a METROPOLIS LEVEL...

Darker than Black - I also don't think the style will fit Secret Chronicles. The melody that starts at the beginning could certainly be adapted into a new song we could use -- I was almost humming it the other day.

Regarding looping, we could ask Johan if he can do this for any of the songs -- otherwise if we can replace some more Mario songs with these, we'd be better off just using them as-is for now.

Does anyone else have suggestions for direct replacements of Mario songs? We could also search Naerbu's Newgrounds page for more replacements and then try to contact him about using them.

A final option is, if we reach a large enough music count, just to delete some or all of the Mario songs and make sure that all shipped levels assigned to the deleted songs are manually assigned to some other song (even map music can help fill these gaps). We'd just need to make sure we don't assign too many levels to the same song after reshuffling. I think this may be the only way to annihilate all of the Mario music in this release.

Note: The dying music and end goal music probably cannot be replaced in this release unless a miracle happens. We could look on free music sites, but our options are limited.

[Quintus]

Regarding looping, we could ask Johan if he can do this for any of the songs

From what he said, I’m pretty sure jobro dislikes looping songs, because it takes away the possibility of special characteristics at the start and end of a song. Still, nonlooping songs as background tracks just sound weird. We will have a tough time convincing him from this until we have a functionality in the game that allows us to loop just over part of a song.

We could also search Naerbu's Newgrounds page for more replacements and then try to contact him about using them.

I’ve already written an email to @RedFT, but not yet received an answer.

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

Still, nonlooping songs as background tracks just sound weird.

I've seen a game where the music stops for a bit then starts again a little later -- I don't think it's going to cause that much of a problem, but we can subsequently remove individual songs if it still is. Having some more tracks in our list would be helpful.

Did you think we might be able to remove the Mario tracks used as level music and assign replacements in each of the levels that use them? If not, we pretty much need to remove the release 2.0 marker from this task, since it's unlikely we're going to find any other way to purge the Mario music in this release.

[Aakburns]

I can't help anymore since your release date is so close, but after December I can make new music.

[datahead8888]

I was listening to the music by Naerbu (RedFT) at http://naerbu.newgrounds.com/audio/ while I worked on some school stuff. I jotted down my thoughts as I listened:

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/483535 "Asteroid field" - might work for a snow/ice level

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/382679 "Oil" - Would work well for any wastelands or in a level that shows the destruction caused by Dr. M's endeavors

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/387267 Cocoon - this would work well for a military theme (monster armies) or battle theme This is a very well composed song! I'd love to get this one in the game!

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/483537 No space - I could see this used as map music It also might work for a generic level music.

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/412386 Lost in a coma - Ancient Ruins music

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/384483 Stories of the silk road - any level with an Asian theme

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/377419 In need of water - Desert level Music

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/327424 Cell phone bomb - This could be used in Dr. M's ship -- it reminds me of sneaking around the enemy's lair...

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/269932 Last Two Notes - A regal hall that looks like it's out of a classical period - might work with Dr. M's love of the arts --This might need to be edited a little for looping if it's used

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/268564 Steel Zombie - Any level with either intense action or with speeding objects

If @RedFT would be willing to grant us permission to use these (by posting in the forum and to confirm the licensing there or by explicitly stating what licensing he is fine with), this would up our song count quite a bit. These are all downloadable as mp3's, which can be converted to ogg's fairly easily. If anyone else has suggestions on songs, please speak up.

Again, I think the best way to actually move to the new music is to purge all Mario songs (except the goal music and dying music for now) and manually reassign all levels that use them to new songs.

@sydneyjd - Could you look on game music websites (with permissive licenses that might work for TSC) and maybe find an end level theme we could borrow? It wouldn't be original, but it wouldn't be Mario either :)

I can't help anymore since your release date is so close, but after December I can make new music.

...and I'm heading into finals week in school...in some ways the release date is a bit inconvenient, though we can't draw akburns in without moving it past January 1st probably.

[Aakburns]

@Quintus Here's a few extra songs. 7z compression.

http://arikburns.com/download/SMC3.7z

[Quintus]

@Quintus Here's a few extra songs. 7z compression.

Thank you!

Vale, Quintus

[datahead8888]

These are all good songs, Arik. It's just a question of what styles work in the game and how we might use them.

1112_mix2.ogg -- I like the song, but it sounds like a dance song. We have been trying new styles, but I'm still not sure it would fit. I'm open to other thoughts, though.

backtoreality_SMC.ogg - I think we should add this one to the game. It really seems like a culmination of energy when the plot is building. I think it'd work well on a map when the action is really serious - maybe the map for the monster factory world. It could otherwise be used in a sub-climatic level.

vector9.ogg - This is a good song, too. I'm not sure how we could use it. We could probably add it, but does anyone have ideas where it might go?

[Quintus]

1112_mix2.ogg -- I like the song, but it sounds like a dance song. We have been trying new styles, but I'm still not sure it would fit.

I agree with you. This one is good, but doesn’t fit the game style.

backtoreality_SMC.ogg - I think we should add this one to the game. It really seems like a culmination of energy when the plot is building. I think it'd work well on a map when the action is really serious - maybe the map for the monster factory world. It could otherwise be used in a sub-climatic level.

ACK. @Aakburns, the starting and ending of this one are similar enough to probably make it loop flawlessly. Do you think you can do this?

vector9.ogg - This is a good song, too. I'm not sure how we could use it. We could probably add it, but does anyone have ideas where it might go?

This one is very nice. Would suite a castle level I think.

Vale, Quintus