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Multiclassing: Error with Caster Levels for Eldritch Knight & Arcane Trickster, Ranger/Paladin too. #549

Closed TakedaMat closed 7 years ago

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

I have a EldKnt 4/Wiz 5 that is presenting as if I have 7-caster levels in error. It should be on 6 via the amount of spell-slots, prepared, etc. I checked and it appears that Rangers and Paladins are rounding up too (once they have spell casting).

Rangers & Paladins provide 1 per 2 levels rounded down.

Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster provide 1 per 3 rounded down.

LordMorin commented 7 years ago

Eldritch Knight - L4 - 1st - 2 (Your casting level is 2) Wizard - L5 - 1st - 4, 2nd - 3, 3rd - 2 (Your casting level is 6)

Your casting levels don't stack so I am not sure where you are getting 6 and/or 7 from . . .

Cantrip Casting Level - 9

On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 6:51 PM, TakedaMat notifications@github.com wrote:

I have a EldKnt 4/Wiz 5 that is presenting as if I have 7-caster levels in error. It should be on 6 via the amount of spell-slots, prepared, etc. I checked and it appears that Rangers and Paladins are rounding up too (once they have spell casting).

Rangers & Paladins provide 1 per 2 levels rounded down.

Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster provide 1 per 3 rounded down.

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TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

5e D&D Eldritch Knight 4/Wizard 5:

Your effective level for earned spell slots is only One for the Eldritch Knight when you Multiclass for each 3 (total EKn) levels. So Wizard 5 +1 (for the 3 of the 4 of the Eldritch Knight) = 6. Check out Multiclassing in the PHB. Looks like the calculation is off for all semi-casters. It's quite a bit different from Pathfinder and 3.0-3.5 D&D.

Character/caster level for Cantrips is total character levels of course.

LordMorin commented 7 years ago

I'd take another look at the Eldritch Knight chart. At 4th level you are the equivalent of a 2nd level caster. You have 2 cantrips, 4 prepared spells and 3 spell slots. SO you are the equivalent of 5 + 2 = 7

PHB - p.72 I believe.

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

5e PHB pg 164. Are you still thinking 3.0?

Nope on the second level caster in the example you just gave, no longer a metric that way. Durations and such, dmg, etc aside from Cantrips don't scale by level, just spell-slot used.

I'm not sure what you're referring to but I think you should re-read Multiclassing in 5e.

I can post the text of that whole thing here if you like?

LordMorin commented 7 years ago

I am looking at the Eldritch Knight and the Arcane trickster charts in the PHB at the moment. Ignore the multi-class chart for the moment. A 4th level Eldritch Knight (or Arcane Trickster) are the equivalent of a 2nd level cast at 4th level.

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

Sorry but you're wrong. Pg 164. There is no 'Caster Level' anymore except for Cantrips and that defaults to a Character level regardless of spell-Caster levels. I'm talking about the Multiclassing dynamic and how many slots you get. I'll write it all out straight from the PHB. Take me a few minutes.

LordMorin commented 7 years ago

I've been running 5E since beta testing. I am currently running 2 separate 5e campaigns. I KNOW what I am talking about.

You have 5 levels of Wizard. As a Level 4 Eldritch Knight you have 2 levels of caster. It's right there in the Elditch Knight class description if you read it.

As for Cantrip, the casting level for them is the sum-total of all your class levels. If you are a level 5 wizard and level 4 warrior (doesn't have to be even a Eldritch Knight) then you casting level for the cantrip is 9. Thus you do 2 dice of damage with the cantrip.

Official rulings from WotC: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-june-2016

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

Straight from Pg 164 of the PHB:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.

If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.

For example, if you are the aforementioned Ranger 4/ Wizard 3, you count as a 5th level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st level slots, three 2nd level slots, and two 3rd level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd level spells, nor do you know any 2nd level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know - and potentially enhance their effects.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So ... If you can quote me from WotC and not some house rule that this above from the PHB is wrong I'm all ears. Nothing on that link says squat about multiclassing that changes or effects any aspect of what we're discussing.

So a Eldritch Knight 4/ Wizard 5 counts as a 6th level character for spell slots, which on page 165 shows I'd have 4-1st level slots, 3-2nd level slots and 3-3rd level slots.

If you're still using Caster Levels that must be a house-rule. Which is fine, but for the community stuff I'd thought you'd stick to the RAW.

On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 5:35 PM, LordMorin notifications@github.com wrote:

I've been running 5E since beta testing. I am currently running 2 separate 5e campaigns. I KNOW what I am talking about.

You have 5 levels of Wizard. As a Level 4 Eldritch Knight you have 2 levels of caster. It's right there in the Elditch Knight class description if you read it.

As for Cantrip, the casting level for them is the sum-total of all your class levels. If you are a level 5 wizard and level 4 warrior (doesn't have to be even a Eldritch Knight) then you casting level for the cantrip is 9. Thus you do 2 dice of damage with the cantrip.

Official rulings from WotC: http://dnd.wizards.com/ articles/features/rules-answers-june-2016

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TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

Again, if you're reading that Eldritch Knight has two caster levels at 4th level, that's either Beta, 3.0 or 3.5 or Pathfinder. There is no such reference whatsoever in the 5e PHB.

On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Takeda Mataroshi <takedamataroshi@gmail.com

wrote:

Straight from Pg 164 of the PHB:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.

If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.

For example, if you are the aforementioned Ranger 4/ Wizard 3, you count as a 5th level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st level slots, three 2nd level slots, and two 3rd level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd level spells, nor do you know any 2nd level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know - and potentially enhance their effects.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So ... If you can quote me from WotC and not some house rule that this above from the PHB is wrong I'm all ears. Nothing on that link says squat about multiclassing that changes or effects any aspect of what we're discussing.

So a Eldritch Knight 4/ Wizard 5 counts as a 6th level character for spell slots, which on page 165 shows I'd have 4-1st level slots, 3-2nd level slots and 3-3rd level slots.

If you're still using Caster Levels that must be a house-rule. Which is fine, but for the community stuff I'd thought you'd stick to the RAW.

On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 5:35 PM, LordMorin notifications@github.com wrote:

I've been running 5E since beta testing. I am currently running 2 separate 5e campaigns. I KNOW what I am talking about.

You have 5 levels of Wizard. As a Level 4 Eldritch Knight you have 2 levels of caster. It's right there in the Elditch Knight class description if you read it.

As for Cantrip, the casting level for them is the sum-total of all your class levels. If you are a level 5 wizard and level 4 warrior (doesn't have to be even a Eldritch Knight) then you casting level for the cantrip is 9. Thus you do 2 dice of damage with the cantrip.

Official rulings from WotC: http://dnd.wizards.com/article s/features/rules-answers-june-2016

— You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/Sklore/HL_DD_5e_Colab/issues/549#issuecomment-272666917, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AX9mMzYgCaNJ8Z3zx1ItFZvlV7SvTo4uks5rSXffgaJpZM4Ljxzc .

LordMorin commented 7 years ago

If you look at the top of the Multi-classing table the header states:

M u l t i c l a s s S p e l l c a s t e r : S p e l l S l o t s p e r S p e l l L e v e l

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

LOL! What point are you trying to make?

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

Show me where it says that a 4th level Eldritch Knight is a 2nd level caster. Where?

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

Sounds like you have Edition-Blur™ which is understandable ... I've played since D&D was new and persecuted by Jack Chick. That's why I've read this bit like 10+ times.

TheEnthusiast commented 7 years ago

@LordMorin

I'm not sure if you understood his point. While a normal 7th level EK follows the table on page 76 of the PHB, a multiclassing one follows the table on pg. 166 . Which means you actually loses some spells. Same applies to the wizard. Basically you ignore the original class(es) spell slot progression to use the one described on chap. 6.

@TakedaMat

Having that said, I do not know if we can fix this issue, because I believe the multiclass code came from LWD's core package. I believe we need to open a request with them.

@Sklore

Do you know/remember if the multiclass code was added in the community package? I cannot find anything about it.

Sklore commented 7 years ago

The multi-classing itself is handled by LW. There are some settings in the classes though that impact multi-classing.

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

Hmm. What if there was an add-on that allowed you to adjust the contribution of 'spell-casting levels' for the multiclassing spellcaster table? Like a new 'adjustment' or house-rule that allowed you to adjust the calculation? Could be good for custom classes.

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 4:51 PM Sklore notifications@github.com wrote:

The multi-classing itself is handled by LW. There are some settings in the classes though that impact multi-classing.

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TheEnthusiast commented 7 years ago

@TakedaMat

Actually, when you create a new class in the editor, there are settings to tell if the class is full caster, half caster or 1/3 caster. The program then uses an internal "thing" (for lack of a better term) called cHelpXXX (cHelpWiz for Wizards) that handles these maths.

It seems the current code merely "stacks" the spells slot progression from each individual class tables, generating the issue.

I'll check the lonewolf forums, maybe they have seen this already.

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

Cool! I just want this to work right so I can use it. I'm not knowledgeable enough with the editor to be less than dangerous. I've tried stuff before and some worked but it was trial and error. I abandoned any attempt to do that several updates ago. Love the product though. I'm grateful to all of you for filling in the gaps and transliterating the SRD and such to Herolab!

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 7:15 PM TheEnthusiast notifications@github.com wrote:

@TakedaMat https://github.com/TakedaMat

Actually, when you create a new class in the editor, there are settings to tell if the class is full caster, half caster or 1/3 caster. The program then uses an internal "thing" (for lack of a better term) called cHelpXXX (cHelpWiz for Wizards) that handles these maths.

It seems the current code merely "stacks" the spells slot progression from each individual class tables, generating the issue.

I'll check the lonewolf forums, maybe they have seen this already.

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TheEnthusiast commented 7 years ago

Heh, trial and error is how everyone starts with herolab. Feel free to destroy everything. In the worst case you just have to redownload the game system again.

Anyway, I've open the case 113626 with LW, let's see how long they take to respond.

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

Sounds good! Thank you!

Takeda

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 2:00 PM TheEnthusiast notifications@github.com wrote:

Heh, trial and error is how everyone starts with herolab. Feel free to destroy everything. In the worst case you just have to redownload the game system again.

Anyway, I've open the case 113626 with LW, let's see how long they take to respond.

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TheEnthusiast commented 7 years ago

I received word from the Support team. It's taken care of and the fix will be present in the next release of the core package.

TakedaMat commented 7 years ago

Great! Thank you. 😎😃

Takeda

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 5:37 PM TheEnthusiast notifications@github.com wrote:

I received word from the Support team. It's taken care of and the fix will be present in the next release of the core package.

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