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SpacedOutChicken / DeCiv-Redux

Rebuild civilization after the end of the world. A mod for Unciv. Uses FantasyHex tiles and units.
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General Balance Suggestions #31

Open HaneulCheong opened 2 years ago

HaneulCheong commented 2 years ago

I am noticing Blackwarden, if left alone for a while, just straight up becoming a superpower and dominating the game for the last three consecutive games I've played. So I took a closer look on their uniques, and "[+10]% Strength <for [All] units> <when fighting in [Foreign Land] tiles>" combined with four starting techs smells significant and possibly irreversible early-game military lead.

Either the condition of its combat bonus should be stricter, or its science penalty should be harsher than "[-2 Science] [in all cities] <before discovering [Education]>" in my opinion. Or we can do both. Other uniques such as buildings or units seem fine.

SpacedOutChicken commented 2 years ago

What if I added <while the empire is happy> to Blackwarden's unique? I know that early game happiness is tricky, not to mention maintaining happiness when you go conquering. Would forcing Blackwarden to mind its happiness be a sufficient nerf?

HaneulCheong commented 2 years ago

\<while the empire is happy>

A very interesting solution without directly hurting the faction's full potential. Definitely worth trying it out!

HaneulCheong commented 2 years ago

Also:

SpacedOutChicken commented 2 years ago

In the original design by 9kgsofrice, early game cities are very weak. What I hear you saying is that they're too weak, giving an excessive first-mover advantage to anyone who goes on the attack right at the beginning.

What I could do, along with your suggestion, is to beef up all cities. By tweaking the mod constants, I can make cities as strong as I want. What do you think?

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022, 7:00 AM 청하늘 @.***> wrote:

Also:

  • Most of the AI nations get knocked out in the very early game if left alone, at least in the Marathon speed. This might be caused by the early-game weapons units being very powerful since the default city strength/health is comparatively lower than that of those units. I suggest swapping Adaptation's -25% Culture cost of natural border growth in all cities with Adaptation Complete's Provides a Walls in your first 4 cities for free so tall nations can withstand the first several turns much smoother. I guess Walls could have significantly more strength boost also.

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HaneulCheong commented 2 years ago

Whoa didn't know those are moddable...

So I've done some research on the mod constants; Perhaps tweaking cityStrengthBase and cityStrengthPerPop could be enough, and if done right swapping the policy uniques wouldn't even be needed. Can you give me some time so I can experiment around a bit?

SpacedOutChicken commented 2 years ago

Take all the time you need, and let me know what you find out.

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022, 8:02 AM 청하늘 @.***> wrote:

Whoa didn't know those are moddable...

So I've done some research on the mod constants; Perhaps tweaking cityStrengthBase and cityStrengthPerPop could be enough, and if done right swapping the policy uniques wouldn't even be needed. Can you give me some time so I can experiment around a bit?

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/SpacedOutChicken/DeCiv-Redux/issues/31#issuecomment-1064156313, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AN53RE25Z4X5CZIQTHZ2ZODU7IFGVANCNFSM5QEMZOZA . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub.

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HaneulCheong commented 2 years ago

So the current situation is...

SpacedOutChicken commented 2 years ago

When you say "Coast/Lake City Buff", what do you have in mind?

HaneulCheong commented 2 years ago

Sorry, was sort of preoccupied doing other DeCiv and UnCiv stuff.

So the current yields of coast and ocean tiles seems unnecessarily weak compared to that of Civ 5 in my opinion, and that is making coastal cities unwanted even more than the base game, even after consideing the various coastal buildings.

Vast historical empires were often built upon a sound naval foundation. I think we can give coastal cities a slight push upwards by implementing some changes affecting tile yields. Here are some options I have in my mind:

  1. +1 Food from coastal tiles in this city to Harbors? Mariner's Seastead should also be changed if this is implemented.
  2. Making Fish Farms require a Harbor so... IDK they become lore-friendly? It's just my preference I guess.
  3. Salvage Sites for Sunken Ruins also? Actually, scratch that considering Ruins and Rubbles.
  4. An additional coastal bonus resource?
HaneulCheong commented 2 years ago

For documentation: #52 partially addressed this.

calrissian-tendra commented 2 years ago

For a little more balance, it might be nice if civs started with a founded pantheon. That would fit with being locked up in a bomb shelter for a number of decades, and would add a few nice bonuses to some civs, and make them a little more individual. Ignore the first part, as base Unciv doesn't have a unique that will allow that directly, although it might be possible to throw in a conditional that grants a free pantheon upon founding a capital city. I'll have to work on that myself. As for coastal bonuses, options 1 and 2 from HanuelChong seem right, but I might add lake tiles to the harbor bonus, as most lake tiles don't generate very close to oceans, and thus these two tiles aren't likely to be in one city's radius.

opellulo commented 2 years ago

BUG - Commonwealth Ranger costs 0 so if you pick a religion with the aspect that allows you to buy units with faith you have... Infinite Rangers! Not only it is a great unit that can crash early game balance but you can also sacrifice it for a citadel so you can paint the map with your color if you feel so. Funny but definitely not WaD. IMPROVEMENT - Solar collector Improvement is useless, even early game improvements grant more than +1 Production. Suggestion is to increase their value and grant them power generation ability with some industrial/postmodern tech so they could also solve late game power shortages (i mean the icon is a solar panel array!)

Sullien commented 2 years ago

BUG - Commonwealth Ranger costs 0 so if you pick a religion with the aspect that allows you to buy units with faith you have... Infinite Rangers! Not only it is a great unit that can crash early game balance but you can also sacrifice it for a citadel so you can paint the map with your color if you feel so. Funny but definitely not WaD. IMPROVEMENT - Solar collector Improvement is useless, even early game improvements grant more than +1 Production. Suggestion is to increase their value and grant them power generation ability with some industrial/postmodern tech so they could also solve late game power shortages (i mean the icon is a solar panel array!)

Solar Collector already provides 1 Power, perhaps it's not shown on the improvement tab?

Regarding the Commonwealth Ranger, that's fixed and now they cost faith if you take the belief..

Alucard0Reborn commented 1 year ago

I'm not sure if I should add this here, but as I check the map with no fog of war, when playing on Four Corners map type, I notice that there's an imbalance of city states. Sometimes one corner can have 3 while the others 1, or 2 get 2 and 2 get 1, or in another recent one it put 5 city states on one corner with no Civs and one island with two Civs. Glad I wasn't on that one. Do you have any plans on making new city states?

Also, it could be a default UnCiv thing, but in my last game I was 200 something turns in and my water was really deteriorating and all my units kept being auto disbanded. I was like no, why, at least take my workers instead. So I tried to disband a few and all my best units who were all leveled up just disbanded, so I quit that game. I was playing Atlas thinking boosted science would lead me to victory.

Also in most games I played with max Civs, every Civ that discovered me automatically started war and sent their entire army towards me, and with units way above my tech level. So I've been playing with Four Corners with only 4 Civs so I don't immediately get obliterated.