New Revised Ratings/Order Question

[newman-iknewit]

In the following grid:

+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+ | 345678 45679 45789 | 567 6789 3569 | 267 279 1 | | 5678 5679 1 | 567 6789 2 | 67 3 4 | | 36 2 79 | 16 4 136 | 5 79 8 | +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+ | 458 1459 4589 | 2 19 149 | 3 6 7 | | 46 1469 249 | 3 169 7 | 8 124 5 | | 467 3 247 | 8 5 146 | 124 124 9 | +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+ | 1 457 6 | 9 3 8 | 47 457 2 | | 2 457 3 | 1457 17 15 | 9 8 6 | | 9 8 457 | 4567 2 56 | 147 1457 3 | +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+

With the new ratings order this gets a 4.3, with 3 Turbot Fishes found (a 2 string kite, a grouped skyscraper, and a grouped 2 string kite). However, there is a Swordfish available on 6 (c257r125), which reduces it to singles. I'm assuming the new order always applies the turbot fish first, even if they are a higher rating? Is this intended?

[SudokuMonster]

Thanks, The ordering of techniques is prioritized over rating. You are correct in your observation that in the new rating the order would be Turbot Fish Techniques followed by swordfish. The ratings of Turbot Fish Techniques appear to be the same in the classic order and the new order which can be rectified by lowering the Turbot fish techniques to make them lower than Swordfish only in the new rating setup.

As you observed a lower rated Swordfish (until this is rectified) could be present in the same puzzle.

Effectively this shouldn't change the solving path (as it depends on Technique ordering rather than rating). You would in an ideal world want you ratings to parallel technique ordering though.

I'll highlight it as a bug for now & may change this in the next release!

Thanks again

[newman-iknewit]

Perhaps this could be a configuration option - whether to prioritize order of technique or rating when presented with overlapping ranges.

I'm sure there are lots of different views on which techniques are actually harder anyway. :)

[SudokuMonster]

With Turbot Fish techniques they Should be easier than swordfish as they depend on 2 strong links in the logic which swordfish depends on 3.

SE within a technique will order & choose the elimination ... extending that to more one technique will impact speed of solving ultimate as SE can be used to bulk-rate puzzles.

As you said there different views out there.

SE has this issue (which is well known) with any 2 solving techniques that have overlapping rating. A prime example is Uniqueness (which can go beyond 5.0 in rating in some settings) and the Naked Quad.

The following link explains the added techniques in Sukaku explainer and the classic rating in a dddition to the suggested new rating for uniqueness techniques http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/revision-of-se-ratings-and-resolution-rules-t36376-30.html#p292744

[newman-iknewit]

Yeah, it's not going to make a huge difference either way. I do think some Swordfish (and Jellyfish) are much easier to spot than others as a manual solver, though that likely isn't the case for SE. For example:

[code]...........98....7.8..6..5..5..4..3...79....2...........27....9.4..5..6.3....62..[/code]

has immediate Swordfish on 2, 5, 6, 7, and 9 just from the (fishy) geometry of the givens - I would actually spot these before the hidden pair, even. (A few of the eliminations on 2 and 6 can also be found with turbot fish, so this gets a 4.3 as well.)

I can definitely understand the impact it would have on bulk solving though, especially for harder puzzles.

[SudokuMonster]

Yes I know that trick ... It was used before to construct some special Pure Jellyfish puzzles

http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/a-pure-jellyfish-collection-t5776-79.html

[newman-iknewit]

Yeah, the Jellyfish is arguably even easier to spot in those puzzles than the Swordfish here... if you know to look for it anyway. :)